meaning of Belief in salvation

[Jac3510]

Jac, Gabe is not taking the bible and verses out of context

I provided the context for 1 Cor 2:9. Would your or he care to show me where I am wrong, and, in fact, where heaven is, in the context, the thing being discussed? Thanks.

but perhaps you are.

Ah, so what do you think the context of John 3:16 is if it isn't salvation?

He is not advocating a works type of salvation.

Then let him clarify. At present, he seems to be saying that I must submitted to God's law--specifically, the Mosaic Law--to be saved. He did, after all, quote the greatest commandment of the OT as part of what you must do to be saved.

By what you believe, I guess the "demons" that are against God are saved too (or would be, if they were human).

Ah, but they aren't human, are they? And besides, you are assuming that the salvation in James 2 is talking about the reception of eternal life, which I dispute. So, I guess that by what I believe, that demons aren't saved for at least TWO reasons, and I'll fully accept your apology for misstating what I believe now. Thanks again.

Nothing that Gabe has written is out of context

Then let him show me where I'm wrong about the context of 1 Cor 2.

or out of line with the numerous pastors I've heard, or theologians I've read.

And my standard faith, like I'm sure Gabe's, is the Bible, not what any pastor or theologian says.

And I'm not just saying this for Gabe, I'd say it for anyone that you were responding to.

Glad to know that, although I have no idea why anyone would think you were defending him especially. I'm sure he can speak for himself.

The facts are plain: 1) no verse in the Bible says we must love God to be saved from Hell. 2) Many verses in the Bible says belief is sufficient to save. As it stands now, until further clarification comes, it appears that Gabe denies both of those and is therefore advocating a gospel different from that which Jesus Himself gave. That's a serious issue, csll. If it weren't important, I wouldn't raise it. What he, or you, or anyone, chooses to do with it is between him and God.

[BavarianWheels]

In any case, the Bible doesn't say that it be saved, you have to believe in Jesus and love Him and God until you die. It says to believe in Jesus. Full stop. Add to that and you add to the Gospel.

I think you're way off, Jac if this is what you believe...full stop. The author of James 2:19 disagrees with you too.

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

I dont argue that John 3:16 is wrong, but cannot stand alone and be taken at face value WHEN the rest of scripture clarifies what belief/faith is...that being a faith that has action.

Do you believe, Jac, that a person can be saved by stating belief in Christ yet living totally and completely according to the flesh? If not, then you've just proved yourself wrong.

And Bav, in each of your cases, if a person believes (trusts) in Jesus Christ for their eternal salvation, then yes, ALL OF THEM ARE SAVED. No other evidence is necessary. The evidence is in the fact that they did the one thing the Bible told them to do. If you want to tell Jesus He was wrong in John 3:16 and other such verses, be my guest. We've had this discussion before. Anything other than the faith alone Gospel is another gospel, which Paul expressly condemns in Gal 18-9.

Now I notice you put "trust" as an addition to the belief. That seems to throw a different spin on things where trust presumes an action of some sort.

Jesus says that EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM is saved. If a person believes but doesn't repent or isn't baptized or doesn't live a good life or whatever the heck else, then Jesus says they are saved. To say that anything else is required is to say to Jesus, "No not EVERYONE who believes, because there are some who believe but don't do these other things. So Jesus, You need to change your conditions here, because as You have it, You've made some mistakes. So sit here, Jesus, and let me teach You what a person REALLY has to do to be saved." So if you want to be like the Muslims and Hindus and Mormons and tell Jesus that His way is wrong, that you have the right way, then, again, be my guest. I'm standing on John 3:16.

Actually it's not us that does this as you say, but it is the whole of the scriptures that "adds" to faith alone salvation in that "...faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
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[Gabrielman]

Yes, I understood exactly what you were saying, but you have failed to get what I am saying. Suppose I trust in Jesus for my salvation, love Him, the whole nine yards, and suppose that such tragedy strikes me that I turn against Him. You can say that I lost my salvation (which makes salvation dependent on my works). You can say that I proved I was never really saved to begin with (which means that NONE OF US know we are saved, because none of us know the future). Or you can say that I am a child of God, saved by His grace and His grace alone, who is now in rebellion because I have given into the lusts of my flesh.

Let's look at this one first. You state in here about losing salvation, that is possible, and that is Biblical. Take a look at Hebrews 6:4-6 It reads, and I quote "For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, tasted God's good word, and the powers of the coming age, and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are re-crucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt." So for your first part here, where you say that I could argue that someone lost their salvation, it is possible. And no, I am not taking the verses out of context, that is exactly what it says. Not sure how that can be taken out of context, in here it says that they were companions with the Holy Spirit, tell me Jac, who, other than those who have been saved, can be companions with the Holy Spirit? The alternative to this verse is that those who "fell away" were never really saved to begin with. Now I am not coming to these conclusions based on my own opinion, to the contrary, I am reading out of several different Bibles, with commentary and looking into the context and original language of the texts. So don't just think it is me here, while I do believe in what I have been reading, that is of my own choosing because it makes more sense to listen to the word, than to try and soak it all in philosophy.

Now I have never said that salvation is by works, so don't assume that is what I meant, but from salvation comes works, God works through the saved. I will get to that here in a minute.

What makes you think that to believe in God is the same as to love Him? They are completely different issues. The very verse you quoted is enough to disprove it . . . to love God is a gradable quality. I can love Him with a little of my being or with my whole being. I truly hope you are not making my love for God the condition for salvation, because if so, I promise you, neither I nor you can say that we have "believed" in God, for who can say that they love God with ALL their heart, soul, and mind?

Pardon me, but perhaps you are not getting what I am saying then. Jac, could you really believe in something you hated? Be honest here. Here is a scenario I would like you to think long and hard about, okay? Imagine this, someone knows that God exists, let's just say that God showed Himself to this individual. Now let us suppose that this person had no love for God what so ever and did not put any faith in Him. You are telling me then that this person, who does not want to be with God in the least bit, will be forced, against his will, to be with God for all time. If that is not what you are trying to say then please tell me what you are trying to say, because to me, that is how it seems. So far as the verse is concerned, which one, I quoted two in the section you quoted to me.

But so far as what makes me think that to love God and believe in Him are the same thing, common sense my friend. You will never believe in something or someone that you do not love. If you love God, you will believe in Him. Why wouldn't someone who loves God believe in Him, that contradicts logic and rational thinking.

Second, why do you quote Luke 16:13? You don't think that to believe in Jesus is to serve Him, do you? Again, serving Jesus and believing in Him for salvation are different issues. If you mean to make them the same, then you have condemned us all to Hell, for none of us can honestly say that we completely, totally, and only serve Jesus. There are times when you have served others - you do it every day. Does that mean you have not believed in Him? Of course not. To believe and to serve are different things.

Why Luke 16:13? Why not? It makes a very valid point, you will serve whom you love. If you love money, then you will work yourself into the grave to get it, if you love God, He WILL be your soul devotion and you will work for Him. The Bible states that. Now about that whole thing where you said that I was propagating that works = salvation, I was not, but the saved will work for God, how much work is irrelevant. Here are some verses:

Matthew 7:17-19 "Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." But I think that you should also see verses 15 and 16 too: "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" Now please don't go around saying that what I am getting from this is out of context in any way, it is not. Here it is saying that you will know people by their works. Let us ask, what is a sheep, well it is representative of the saved. Christ is the Shepherd and we are the sheep. How will you know those who are truly in God's grace and not just pretending to be a Christian? By the fruit they produce. Now I am not saying that the work you do will save you, not by any means, but that when you are saved God will work through you and you will be inspired by Him to do His works. What are works, well now, that is for God to decided.
Mark 4:1-20 The parable of the sower, I won't quote the whole thing to you, but let me show you a point that it makes, and yes it does make this point. In the end, the seeds that fell on the good soil sprang up and produced more seeds, or as God puts it: "20:Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown." They hear the Word, accept it (the Word is Christ) and spring up (in a new life) and produce more than what was sown. Give me one example of someone in the Bible who did not ever work for Christ after he was saved, be careful though, for we cannot judge what is and is not work for God.
Matthew 5:14-20 (New International Version)[From Bible Gateway]

14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven."
When you are saved, it CANNOT be hidden, but Christ will shine through you. Note how Christ says it, for it is not me who is saying it.
James 2:14, James 2:20, James 2:26 Faith without works is dead, that is in the Bible, the Word of God! There really is no getting around it my friend, for those with true faith will show it, it is written "You will know them by their fruits"

There is a lot in the NT about this, and it is Biblical and sound. It never says that salvation is earned through works, but it says that when someone is saved, they will do works for God. So this brings what I was saying full circle now. Those who believe IN God will love Him, and in that LOVE WILL do works for Him, because they accepted the FREE Gift of salvation. God never said work earned salvation, but He did say that when you are saved you WILL work. Why? You are filled with joy, with the Holy Spirit, and you want others to have the same gift, you want others to feel God's love and to be fulfilled by Him, there fore out of love, you will witness, which is works, you will make your life Christ centered and by doing so show the love and mercy of Christ through your actions, which is works.

Again, your own view, though, either means that I must work for my salvation or that I cannot know I am saved. Both views contradict Scripture. This is EXACTLY why you cannot say "love Him, trust Him, believe in Him, or whatever you want to say." Gabe, do you not understand that words have meaning? If God wanted to say that loving Him was a condition of being saved, He would have said so. To love God is NOT the same as to trust or believe in Him, anymore than to love another human is the same as to trust or believe in them.

Jac, let me put you straight here, you cannot tell me what I believe. And talking down to me here like you just did above, will get you no where. My View is this, and I will make it simple, You must Believe in Christ (who is God) to be saved, and what does it mean to believe? To believe in something or someone (as I stated above) you must first love them, because if you love them you will want to believe in them, you will seek them, you will want to be with them.

There is only ONE condition, as clearly expressed in John 3:16 - to believe in Jesus.

What of the rest of the Bible then? Do you not think that it is important?

Is heaven all He has prepared, Gabe? In the first place, regarding heaven, there will be different rewards there. Those who love Him will certainly be rewarded more greatly than those who did not and who failed to persevere. In the second place, Paul tells us himself in that very passage what it was that God had prepared: the mind of Christ! (1 Cor 2:16) The context is very easy to follow. The rulers of this age, in man's wisdom, did not understand who Jesus was and what He wanted, so they killed Him. But we who believe have been given the Spirit freely so that we might discern such things - and if we walk in that Spirit, we are free, are judged by nothing, and judge all things. This freedom is the very mind of Christ, and all that comes with that, both here and in heaven.

I do not believe that I took it out of context, the Bible works as a whole. If you didn't love God (Jesus) then you would not want to be in heaven and you would not be forced to be there. You keep saying that if you hated God, but knew He was real, that He would force you to be with Him. So basically then you have no free will to choose for yourself, as God could care less if you want to be with Him or not, If you know He exists, you will be with Him. Not quite what I believe, sorry.

Think about the implications of FREE,

Think of it yourself for a moment and maybe you will see where I am coming from. Jac, you cannot be forced to take a FREE gift. If you hated said gift and did not want it, you don't have to take it. Jac if I sent you a box full of dirt as a gift, and you didn't want it, do you really think you would be forced to take it? No, you could always put on it, "Return to sender". We must accept the Gift of salvation, and in order to do so we have to want it, and you won't want what you hate, but you will want what you love. Therefore, yes you have to actually love God in order to accept His gift of salvation. After that you will always love God because you will be filled with His Holy Spirit. Sure you will come across times where you may be angry with God, but He will keep flooding you with His love and you will soon forget your anger. But anger does not constitute hate, even if you went so far as to tell God you hated Him because you were angry at something you thought He did to you, eventually you will come to retract that. Why, because God's Holy Spirit will convict you to do so.

Ah, but they aren't human, are they? And besides, you are assuming that the salvation in James 2 is talking about the reception of eternal life, which I dispute. So, I guess that by what I believe, that demons aren't saved for at least TWO reasons, and I'll fully accept your apology for misstating what I believe now. Thanks again.

Oh, but didn't you misstate what I believe Jac, You did. So how about toning it down just a bit there? We are supposed to be having a nice, productive conversation here, not talking down and saying that someone owes you an apology, which you implied she did. If she owes you one then you own me one for this:

Again, your own view, though, either means that I must work for my salvation or that I cannot know I am saved. Both views contradict Scripture. This is EXACTLY why you cannot say "love Him, trust Him, believe in Him, or whatever you want to say." Gabe, do you not understand that words have meaning? If God wanted to say that loving Him was a condition of being saved, He would have said so. To love God is NOT the same as to trust or believe in Him, anymore than to love another human is the same as to trust or believe in them.

Because my own view does not state you must work for your salvation, and I believe you can know when you are saved. You are not me, therefore you cannot say what I believe. Now let's play nice.

Actually it's not us that does this as you say, but it is the whole of the scriptures that "adds" to faith alone salvation in that "...faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

Jac, Gabe is not taking the bible and verses out of context, but perhaps you are. He is not advocating a works type of salvation. By what you believe, I guess the "demons" that are against God are saved too (or would be, if they were human). Nothing that Gabe has written is out of context or out of line with the numerous pastors I've heard, or theologians I've read. And I'm not just saying this for Gabe, I'd say it for anyone that you were responding to.

Jac, she is right on the money, I am not advocating a works type of salvation, that is not biblical, you cannot earn salvation.

[cslewislover]

Jac, Gabe is not taking the bible and verses out of context

I provided the context for 1 Cor 2:9. Would your or he care to show me where I am wrong, and, in fact, where heaven is, in the context, the thing being discussed? Thanks.

but perhaps you are.

Ah, so what do you think the context of John 3:16 is if it isn't salvation?

Regarding the first question, we've discussed all this before and I'm not going to go all over it again.

John 3:16 is one verse. There are so many verses in the bible that people pull out and use to justify their own positions. I think Gabe and Bav are right - you need to take the whole word of God into context. What John says there is the beginning. It isn't just our work (the first step of believing) - we then submit to God's spirit. When we believe, our spirit is made alive; our spirit starts a dance with God's, the dance of sanctification. We want to worship God, we want to love God, we want relationship with Him and He wants that with us. There is so much that could be quoted in the bible about it, it would be hard to point all of it out. Paul spoke of persevering more than once. Why do we have to persevere if a simple acknowledgment of God is all that's needed for salvation? We'll never be perfect this side of heaven, including perfection in love for God, but that's OK.

[zoegirl]

Good posts Vicki,

I think we are placing waaayyyy too much on OUR role in salvation and forgetting that in salvation we begin a relationship, a relationship with our Redeemer!

We cannot judge salvation of others or on ourselves on actions and Jac is absolutely right that belief is all that is required.

WE must NOT, however, lose sight of the journey of sanctification, which of course involves some steps forward and some steps backward. If we find ourselves slipping backwards, that doesn't mean we have lost our salvation, it does mean we need to get our relationship with our Redeemer together again. WE see this over and over again in scripture, from David and his heart-wrenching Psalm of confession that restores the relationship to Paul's elaboration of sanctification in his letters.

[smiley]

John 3:16 is one verse.

There are over 150 verses in the Bible which plainly say something like "whoever believes will be saved", 90 of which are in the Gospel of John. You'd have to do some serious mental gymnastics to explain all of them away.

[zoegirl]

SHe's not denying that believing in CHrist brings salvation

[cslewislover]

Yes, Zoe, thanks. Yeah, we may have times in our lives where we don't care about God much, or we get angry with Him. I don't believe, though, that one can hate God, and die in that state, and somehow that person will be in Heaven in God's presence. That would be odd for both beings. Lol. Just saying.

Smiley, that's just strange. Of course you are saved by believing (um, but not like how Satan believes). There's just a lot more going on with the discussion, and there are past threads on this.

[truthman]

Gabriel
A more careful study reveals that it is impossible to lose salvation from eternal death.
1.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Here it says that those who believe HAVE everlasting life (present tense). If they lost that everlasting life, then it wasn't everlasting, was it?
2.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. -ESV
Here it states that all who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ were born of God (see also John 3:3-6). That is how they received everlasting life.
Some things are irreversible: birth is one of them. Once a person is born of God, he cannot be unborn.
3.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.
Why leave the elementary doctrine of Christ?

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. -ESV

The reason stated for leaving a discussion of the elementary doctrine is because believers cannot go back and do it over. It is impossible for believers who fall away (backslide) to go back to the point of repentance and "un-repent" and then someday repent again because it would mean Christ's death was not enough and He would have to die again. This passage states that it is impossible to lose your salvation.
The mistake often made is misinterpreting the words "fall away" falsely assuming that it means "lose salvation" which it does not. Christians can and do "fall away" all of the time. Every time you sin, you have fallen away to a degree. You certainly are not at the same level you were before you sinned. That doesn't mean you lose your salvation, because you have an advocate.

1Jn_2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. -ESV

[smiley]

CSLL, my point is that "John 3:16 is just one verse" does not mean anything. If it's about the number of relevant verses, then the "faith-alone" gospel surely wins.

[cslewislover]

CSLL, my point is that "John 3:16 is just one verse" does not mean anything. If it's about the number of relevant verses, then the "faith-alone" gospel surely wins.

But you cannot divorce God's work and involvement in it. One does not simply say "I believe" one day, and then walk away the next. I think the bible is very clear on that. We're talking about if someone really believes, or if one just said it out of emotionalism or for some other motive. What is faith, and what is belief? We can't know each person's heart, no, but there is a lot in the bible to indicate to us that we need to be discerning, at least at times. Or else you will be drawn in by false prophets, etc. Would you, seriously, just follow anyone who says they believe in Christ? Seriously? Jesus said Himself that there will be those who called on His name, did miracles in His name, but they won't be saved. What do you make of that?

[smiley]

Sorry, I am not involving myself in this, take that up with Jac3510 (already have several massive posts to respond to). I just felt the need to comment on that sentence.

In any case, I'm sure you already know the standard responses for the verses you're citing (Jesus saying that not everyone who acknowledges Him as the Lord will be saved and stuff about Satan believing), since after all, this has been discussed a lot before as you yourself acknowledge, so I don't know why you're bringing them up.

[cslewislover]

Truthman, quite a few scholars would disagree with you. I think what has been termed "apostasy" is mysterious. However, taken in context, the following verses have been used to show that apostasy is possible: Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26; Peter 1:10, and 1 John 5:16-17. 1 John 2:19 indicates that there are some who seemed to believed, but later showed that they did not. See also 1 John 3:4-9.

[narnia4]

Wow, there's a lot going on here, interesting stuff. I don't know what I can add besides some basic stuff.

1. I agree that John 3:16 (and many other verses very similar) is the gospel message in a nutshell. It is by faith not by works, believe and you will be saved.

2. Belief is not the same as knowledge, and conversations on belief can get pretty complex. I do believe that you can in your heart "know" that Jesus is Lord without believing in him.

3. I agree with Zoegirl, there's a lot of emphasis being put on "one way" of the two way street that is a relationship with the living God.

4. With point 3 in mind, when you are saved, other things will follow. The Holy Spirit will indwell you and you WILL be changed. Remember "they will know we are Christians by our love"? If a person claims to be saved one hour and then goes on to murder someone while cursing God the next, there's a good chance that person was never really saved. Not to mention that there's a whole sanctification process to go through. That's not to "add on" to the requirements or anything.

5. With all that said, a genuine Christian can sink to horrible depths and separate themselves from God. Can they even deny God? It brings to mind all sorts of tough questions, like whether prominent "Christian turned atheist" figures who set out to deny God for a living are still saved, have lost their salvation, or were they ever really saved to begin with (seeing as many of these men and women don't even seem to understand Christianity and instead use a hoard of stereotypes against it, I'm fairly comfortable in saying that a good number of them never truly had a saving relationship with Christ, but all of them? That's tough stuff).

6. I'm glad that God is in control and not me.


A good summary to my thoughts on this- Believing in Christ and accepting Him is the beginning of a relationship with Him, not the end.

[Gabrielman]

Wow, there's a lot going on here, interesting stuff. I don't know what I can add besides some basic stuff.

1. I agree that John 3:16 (and many other verses very similar) is the gospel message in a nutshell. It is by faith not by works, believe and you will be saved.

2. Belief is not the same as knowledge, and conversations on belief can get pretty complex. I do believe that you can in your heart "know" that Jesus is Lord without believing in him.

3. I agree with Zoegirl, there's a lot of emphasis being put on "one way" of the two way street that is a relationship with the living God.

4. With point 3 in mind, when you are saved, other things will follow. The Holy Spirit will indwell you and you WILL be changed. Remember "they will know we are Christians by our love"? If a person claims to be saved one hour and then goes on to murder someone while cursing God the next, there's a good chance that person was never really saved. Not to mention that there's a whole sanctification process to go through. That's not to "add on" to the requirements or anything.

5. With all that said, a genuine Christian can sink to horrible depths and separate themselves from God. Can they even deny God? It brings to mind all sorts of tough questions, like whether prominent "Christian turned atheist" figures who set out to deny God for a living are still saved, have lost their salvation, or were they ever really saved to begin with (seeing as many of these men and women don't even seem to understand Christianity and instead use a hoard of stereotypes against it, I'm fairly comfortable in saying that a good number of them never truly had a saving relationship with Christ, but all of them? That's tough stuff).

6. I'm glad that God is in control and not me.


A good summary to my thoughts on this- Believing in Christ and accepting Him is the beginning of a relationship with Him, not the end.

Straight and to the point as always! Good Post!