Time scale? a very long time indeed.

[truthman]

I am sorry if I ever come across as short or abrupt: it is one of the limitations of this medium.
I am also sorry if I do not make myself clear or give completely satisfying answers: it is my fault. God help me.

God is infinite. Infinity is boundless and limitless. God cannot lack anything.
God does not and cannot change. What He is today, He has always been and always will be.
God is perfect & complete. God is completely sufficient in Himself. God must be able to find perfect and complete fellowship within Himself.
God is and has never been alone: He has Himself and there is perfect companionship with in the 3 persons of God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[Gabrielman]

truthman wrote:I am sorry if I ever come across as short or abrupt: it is one of the limitations of this medium.
I am also sorry if I do not make myself clear or give completely satisfying answers: it is my fault. God help me.

God is infinite. Infinity is boundless and limitless. God cannot lack anything.
God does not and cannot change. What He is today, He has always been and always will be.
God is perfect & complete. God is completely sufficient in Himself. God must be able to find perfect and complete fellowship within Himself.
God is and has never been alone: He has Himself and there is perfect companionship with in the 3 persons of God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

May I ask you a question? What is your belief on the Trinity? Do you believe God is 3 in 1 or three separate? I think we may not really be disagreeing on this topic, and so I would like to make myself a little clearer. Here is what I was trying to say, that God was by Himself, there were no others than Him, so He created so that He could love others, and they could love Him. He wanted to do that, so He did do it. Not that He had to, nor that if He hadn't He would lose out. We should be grateful, He choose to create us, but He didn't have to. I do believe that God is perfect and had no need to make us and that He would have been perfectly fine on His own, as you said:

God must be able to find perfect and complete fellowship within Himself.

I agree. Please tell me if we are just simply having a misunderstanding here, as I think we are saying the same thing.

I believe I misspoke or rather used the wrong word originally, alone was not the right term to use, what I meant was not that God was lonely, not at all, and so I should have used another term. Hope this clears up any issues we have on this thread, as, like I said, I think we are on the same page and I just choose the wrong wording.

We are off topic here, I believe either the topic should be split, or that we should move our posts to a new thread. If a mod could split this topic, I would be grateful, as we are far off topic, which I apologize for.

[truthman]

I believe in the trinity. One God exists in 3 persons, each person being equally infinite, and existing with complete harmony and unity.
I believe God created man because He is and has always been loving and created us to love us. We are the happy recipients of His incredibly wonderful love, and we receive it all by grace: a totally free and undeserved gift from this loving God. We most certainly ought to love Him in return: He is worthy.

[truthman]

As far as inflation goes, listen to this podcast, #3 (6-29-10)
http://itunes.apple.com/podcast/i-didnt ... d304509928
This response was mentioned in the podcast:
http://www.reasons.org/special-edition- ... e-universe

In inflation as well as the universe's continual expansion, it is space that expands, it is not matter accelerating. In otherwords, matter was not and is not speeding through space at faster than the speed of light.
Also read this article
http://www.reasons.org/did-universe-hyperinflate

So, what is space and how can it expand, moving matter and energy great distances at speeds far greater than light?
Can space expand today causing galaxies to move apart rapidly without adding energy causing them to accelerate.

[dayage]

Truthman,

So, what is space and how can it expand, moving matter and energy great distances at speeds far greater than light?

Length, width and height. Those are the three spatial dimensions we interact with. Many astronomers like to use a balloon. Put dots on a balloon and blow it up. The faster it expands the faster the dots move apart. All of the matter is on the three dimensional surface of the four dimensional universe. The fourth dimension is time.

Can space expand today causing galaxies to move apart rapidly without adding energy causing them to accelerate.

Dark energy is an anti-gravity type energy that prevades the universe. Estimates, based on different measurements, show that dark energy is about 72% of what makes up the universe.

[truthman]

Truthman,

So, what is space and how can it expand, moving matter and energy great distances at speeds far greater than light?

Length, width and height. Those are the three spatial dimensions we interact with. Many astronomers like to use a balloon. Put dots on a balloon and blow it up. The faster it expands the faster the dots move apart. All of the matter is on the three dimensional surface of the four dimensional universe. The fourth dimension is time.

Can space expand today causing galaxies to move apart rapidly without adding energy causing them to accelerate.

Dark energy is an anti-gravity type energy that prevades the universe. Estimates, based on different measurements, show that dark energy is about 72% of what makes up the universe.

Space as described is relative to matter: no matter, no space. For matter to move away from other matter it must require energy to push the matter. If the matter is moving apart in space, it must do so at a certain velocity. According to special relativity, the greater the velocity at which it is moving, the more time is slowed relative to matter it is moving away from. If it's velocity is near to the speed of light, time slows almost to a stop. If it somehow exceeded the speed of light, it would go backwards in time.

[dayage]

Truthman,

Space as described is relative to matter: no matter, no space. For matter to move away from other matter it must require energy to push the matter. If the matter is moving apart in space, it must do so at a certain velocity. According to special relativity, the greater the velocity at which it is moving, the more time is slowed relative to matter it is moving away from. If it's velocity is near to the speed of light, time slows almost to a stop. If it somehow exceeded the speed of light, it would go backwards in time.

Space is volume. It need not contain matter. At the time of inflation there was no matter, only energy and space-time. Inflation took place between about 10-36 seconds and 10-33 seconds after the big bang. That is a small fraction of a second. So, even if matter existed, it only went back in time a small fraction of a second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Big_Bang

[truthman]

Thank you. That is helpful.
However, space is meaningless if there is no matter.

[dayage]

However, space is meaningless if there is no matter.

Where did you get this idea?

[Canuckster1127]

I think he's suggestiong that space has no meaning if there is not matter to contrast with it. I sort of understand his point in one sense, but it presupposes that that there is nothing beyond the edge of the universe. If there is nothing but it is a nothing with different qualities than the "space" containing within the expanding universe then that statement is not necessarily true. We may not know what is beyond the expanding edge of the universe and what it is expanding into, but if there is anything definable and different in that regard, then our space does not require matter to define it. Unless you limit things to human perception in which case that might make some sort of sense.

[Kristoffer]

So, even if matter existed, it only went back in time a small fraction of a second.

This desk feels pretty material to me, its made of balsa would and I am pretty sure that if i wanted to smash it into half by my own strength I could. If it wasn't made of matter wouldn't my fists just pass right through?

[B. W.]

So, even if matter existed, it only went back in time a small fraction of a second.

This desk feels pretty material to me, its made of balsa would and I am pretty sure that if i wanted to smash it into half by my own strength I could. If it wasn't made of matter wouldn't my fists just pass right through?

What's the matter with Matter?

Can Matter become Fact? a matter of fact?


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[Origin]

I'm thinking that God created everything in an instant of time along with everything else. Imagine the implications of that. Whole populations of animals with 'old' individuals as well as 'young'. Chickens created already sitting on a clutch of eggs. Oil deposits already deep in the earth. Dinosaur remains embedded in rock. Coral reefs in place to support all the organisms that make up the ecosystem. Continents adrift with evidence of past drift. In other words God created an earth and a universe that was as fully functional as it was today. What is sand but weathered rock? What is limestone and was it there the day after creation? In order for the earth to function as it does there is no other explanation. God did not create plants growing out of molten lava. Soil is weathered rock and that takes 'time'. God created functional ecosystems and dead material for those species that are dependent on dead material.

The same can be said of the universe. If the universe was created at a point in time with a past then light striking the earth from distant stars can easily be explained. Red giants as well as 'young' stars. I think creationists and evolutionists both strain at gnats and swallow camels. God is truly omnipotent and He can do anything and He need not explain anything. Like he said to Job: "Were you there?" We weren't there.

I have absolutely no problem with God accomplishing what he did in 7 literal days and that Homo Sapiens is a unique creation that happened on the 6th day. All the species that are alive today were created on that day but they also had a past that was created on that day. It was as if they had always existed.

The most important part of the Bible is that man sinned and God sent His only Son to redeem mankind from death. The origins debate is interesting but the crucial decision is this.... Do you realize you are in a fallen state and do you accept Jesus as the Son of God and his redemptive death that gives you forgiveness and eternal life?

[RickD]

I'm thinking that God created everything in an instant of time along with everything else. Imagine the implications of that. Whole populations of animals with 'old' individuals as well as 'young'. Chickens created already sitting on a clutch of eggs. Oil deposits already deep in the earth. Dinosaur remains embedded in rock. Coral reefs in place to support all the organisms that make up the ecosystem. Continents adrift with evidence of past drift. In other words God created an earth and a universe that was as fully functional as it was today. What is sand but weathered rock? What is limestone and was it there the day after creation? In order for the earth to function as it does there is no other explanation. God did not create plants growing out of molten lava. Soil is weathered rock and that takes 'time'. God created functional ecosystems and dead material for those species that are dependent on dead material.

The same can be said of the universe. If the universe was created at a point in time with a past then light striking the earth from distant stars can easily be explained. Red giants as well as 'young' stars. I think creationists and evolutionists both strain at gnats and swallow camels. God is truly omnipotent and He can do anything and He need not explain anything. Like he said to Job: "Were you there?" We weren't there.

I have absolutely no problem with God accomplishing what he did in 7 literal days and that Homo Sapiens is a unique creation that happened on the 6th day. All the species that are alive today were created on that day but they also had a past that was created on that day. It was as if they had always existed.

The most important part of the Bible is that man sinned and God sent His only Son to redeem mankind from death. The origins debate is interesting but the crucial decision is this.... Do you realize you are in a fallen state and do you accept Jesus as the Son of God and his redemptive death that gives you forgiveness and eternal life?

Origin, First , welcome to the board. Second, after reading your post, I can see you could learn much from being here. Feel free to ask any questions on your mind. Rick

[Kristoffer]

...Imagine...Oil deposits already deep in the earth. Dinosaur remains embedded in rock. Coral reefs in place to support all the organisms that make up the ecosystem. Continents adrift with evidence of past drift. In other words God created an earth and a universe that was as fully functional as it was today...God is truly omnipotent and He can do anything and He need not explain anything.

Yes, I can imagine that. Doesn't stop it from being preposterous and you would have to be really sad to think any of that is true. Why go through all the trouble of creating stuff that looks like it would take millions of years to form unless god was trying to be a deceptive confusing skitstövel.