Do Christians apologize?

[RickD]

. . . I was in church today, and the thought - the possibility - of what happened on this board happening in church was just not a realistic thought. Can you imagine the exchange happening in a bible study even? I can't. And we're representing Christianity to the world.

I can't imagine it happening in church, but for a different reason. People in church imo tend to put up a front sometimes, and act as if the glass is always half full. Even if someone just spilled the whole glass all over them. People may not want to voice their opinion in person because they're afraid of confrontation. I feel that it's much easier to voice my opinion here, when the worst thing that may happen is someone will type bad words on my computer screen.

[truthman]

CSLewislover
Do you honestly care whether I or anyone else comes or goes? I haven't felt any Christian love towards me emanating from your postings...

[Byblos]

Jac3510 wrote:

BW wrote:Is that true? Are you totally against faith that changes ones direction and course of life? Why is that so terrifying?

UNTIL I GET AN APOLOGY FOR THIS LINE, YOU AND I WILL HAVE NOTHING MORE TO SAY ON THIS SUBJECT. I am HIGHLY offended at this. Where did I once say or imply that I am against living the Christian life? WHERE?

I didn't. This is nothing more than a dirty debate tactic. It's despicable.

What I am against is saying that if you DON'T change you life, then you haven't believed.

BW: I'm sorry (see how easy that was?) but it is you who owes Jac an apology for attributing a position to him he absolutely does not hold.

Byblos, I am sorry to just jump into this on going conversation, but I must ask, is this what you meant for B. W. to apologize for?

Yes.

From my perspective he was only asking a series of questions to Jac. Now I could be wrong, but I just wanted to know to be clearer on things. Not butting in to be disruptive, sorry.

I guess everyone sees things from their own perspective. From mine what I see is that Jac was temporarily banned for appearing to insult others. What I also see is that Jac was highly insulted by BW's comment (whether or not we see it as such is irrelevant) and Jac has yet to receive so much as an apology for that. But again, that is only from my own perspective. It is of course your and others' prerogative to disagree.

[cslewislover]

Do you honestly care whether I or anyone else comes or goes? I haven't felt any Christian love towards me emanating from your postings...

I was answering you in a straight forward way, at least until you accused me of a heresy (you didn't ask me if I was espousing something, you said I was). All your posts seem straightforward and not gushing with love (no, I'm not being sarcastic), sort-of professional, I guess. Am I supposed to be different? I don't get that. My gut feeling is that you'd prefer it if the mods were all men.

I can't imagine it happening in church, but for a different reason. People in church imo tend to put up a front sometimes, and act as if the glass is always half full. Even if someone just spilled the whole glass all over them. People may not want to voice their opinion in person because they're afraid of confrontation. I feel that it's much easier to voice my opinion here, when the worst thing that may happen is someone will type bad words on my computer screen.

Yeah, I was pointing out how absurd it would be, since church is usually formal - at least socially so. Can you imagine someone arguing with the pastor after church like that? People would think the person was nuts, I think. Anyway, then I thought about the much less formal and more personal bible study. If what happened here happened there, it wouldn't surprise me if the bible study actually ceased to exist afterwards. A lot people, Christians too, put on a public face while having a different personal face. And sure, the anonymity of the internet frees people of their constraints, if they wish to exercise that freedom, much like when they drive.

[RickD]

Yeah, I was pointing out how absurd it would be, since church is usually formal - at least socially so. Can you imagine someone arguing with the pastor after church like that? People would think the person was nuts, I think. Anyway, then I thought about the much less formal and more personal bible study. If what happened here happened there, it wouldn't surprise me if the bible study actually ceased to exist afterwards. A lot people, Christians too, put on a public face while having a different personal face. And sure, the anonymity of the internet frees people of their constraints, if they wish to exercise that freedom, much like when they drive.

Something that I have been trying to do is listen to the point that someone is making. Even if the point is surrounded by anger and bad words. I think the great thing about God is that we can come to him one-on-one in any tone and He knows what we're saying. I pray that I can see more of what someone is saying, instead of getting offended by the way he/she is saying it.

[Gabrielman]

CSLewislover
Do you honestly care whether I or anyone else comes or goes? I haven't felt any Christian love towards me emanating from your postings...

Do we really have to start into this? Really? Here's an idea, why don't we just try to get along with one another. It seems only certain types of people seem to have a problem with CSLL, while the vast majority of the board does not. Let me ask you this, are you acting in Christian love? So there is some disagreeing on this board, does that amount to having to have enemies? Are we not all Children of Christ? A house divided will not stand, think about that everyone. We don't have to be enemies here just because we don't see eye to eye on every little thing. Can we find common ground? I pray to God that we can.

If we are the body of Christ, then why is there so much anger and spite here. I would like to know, so can someone please tell me?

I guess everyone sees things from their own perspective. From mine what I see is that Jac was temporarily banned for appearing to insult others. What I also see is that Jac was highly insulted by BW's comment (whether or not we see it as such is irrelevant) and Jac has yet to receive so much as an apology for that. But again, that is only from my own perspective. It is of course your and others' prerogative to disagree.

Okay, just wanted to know. I wasn't entirely sure of what was going on with that.

Something that I have been trying to do is listen to the point that someone is making. Even if the point is surrounded by anger and bad words. I think the great thing about God is that we can come to him one-on-one in any tone and He knows what we're saying. I pray that I can see more of what someone is saying, instead of getting offended by the way he/she is saying it.

I like that, nicely said.

[cslewislover]

Something that I have been trying to do is listen to the point that someone is making. Even if the point is surrounded by anger and bad words. I think the great thing about God is that we can come to him one-on-one in any tone and He knows what we're saying. I pray that I can see more of what someone is saying, instead of getting offended by the way he/she is saying it.

I think that's great, Rick. I do as well, but when you know someone for a while, there's a history. What you hear your brother say is going to be interpreted differently, perhaps, than what you hear the librarian say - if it were the same sentence.

Also, there's a difference between an atheist saying something to you, and a fellow Christian. They can use the same words practically, but the meaning behind it may be very different. Or, you may give the atheist more slack because they don't know the subject, whereas the Christian does, or you assume he does. What I'm trying to point out, is that the history of the people, and the context of the conversations, make a big difference.

[truthman]

I was answering you in a straight forward way, at least until you accused me of a heresy (you didn't ask me if I was espousing something, you said I was). All your posts seem straightforward and not gushing with love (no, I'm not being sarcastic), sort-of professional, I guess. Am I supposed to be different? I don't get that. My gut feeling is that you'd prefer it if the mods were all men.

I never accused you of heresy. I immediately apologized when it was clear that it came across wrong, and I meant it. I have yet to receive any indication that you cared. No apologies coming from you.
And what makes you think I would prefer the mods to be men???? I would just prefer that they be patient, considerate, and charitable.

[cslewislover]

I was answering you in a straight forward way, at least until you accused me of a heresy (you didn't ask me if I was espousing something, you said I was). All your posts seem straightforward and not gushing with love (no, I'm not being sarcastic), sort-of professional, I guess. Am I supposed to be different? I don't get that. My gut feeling is that you'd prefer it if the mods were all men.

I never accused you of heresy. I immediately apologized when it was clear that it came across wrong, and I meant it. I have yet to receive any indication that you cared. No apologies coming from you.
And what makes you think I would prefer the mods to be men???? I would just prefer that they be patient, considerate, and charitable.

You responded to someone else when they brought it up, you never responded to me. But thank you. Ok.

[RickD]

Also, there's a difference between an atheist saying something to you, and a fellow Christian. They can use the same words practically, but the meaning behind it may be very different. Or, you may give the atheist more slack because they don't know the subject, whereas the Christian does, or you assume he does. What I'm trying to point out, is that the history of the people, and the context of the conversations, make a big difference.

You're right. I tend to expect a different tone from someone who claims to be a Christian. I guess that I may be more harsh with a believer than a non-believer. Whether or not that is fair on my part. I think that if I feel the person is being honest in his words(even if the words or tone shows anger), my tone tends to be more pleasant. As opposed to someone I feel is just looking for a confrontation, or being dogmatic and arrogant.

[zoegirl]

I have seen a lot of online behavior lately (and let me stress that I am not talking about this board solely) from Christians that is not espousing the Christian love towards each other and to non-Christians. Many Christian blogs are especially prone to this. From mild poking to downright rapid attacks, it seems that the online world has created some rather disappointing behavior from Christians.

The anonymity of online behavior allows otherwise professional, civilized people to go on the offensive (and quite rapidly). What is astonishing about this is that is is cloaked in righteousness. Many of these bloggers will use Christ's exchange with the Pharisees and the money-changers to validate if not rude and obnoxious behavior, then certainly a quickness to take offense and to give offense. A willingness to assume the worst. Which is unfortunate in this written world where body language and facial expressions and voice tone do not let you appropriately gauge the tone of a comment.

The big difference is that Christ is, well, Christ! He knew WHEN to give offense and He gave it appropriately. Not only that, but He certainly had the advantage of interacting personally with them. But many more times He was gentle, patient, loving...And while He certainly did not mince words with the Pharisees I can't quite imagine Him taking the snide, condescending tone that some of the bloggers I have read take.

Paul had much to say about the interactions between Christians. How many times in the epistles does He exhort those He is writing to to bear with one another, speak wisely? be patient? be forgiving?....And of course James had much to say about this.

We all have a personal sacred cows...those subjects that we can get offended at. I know I struggle with being patient with the science section of the discussion board. To me it is quite obvious and I know it annoys me terribly to hear topics and views taken which, to me, seem utterly ridiculous. How many times I roll my eyes? It's not flattering, but we all do it. (and I am sorry for doing it!)

If there is anything to learn from this episode, it is to remind ourselves to always assume the best of the other person's comment, taking the time to see what they truly meant behind a post. To be patient when explaining one's own view and to be patient when dealing with the other person. That was the most surprising to me....how quickly the particular thread in question went downhill.

What's really terribly frustrating is that I really do like everyone who has posted here and was involved in the thread! If anything, you just want to knock heads together and say "Knock it off!" to everyone! And yes, truthman, we do like people here....it's was a struggle because so many *were* old familiar people...

ah well...

[cslewislover]

You're right. I tend to expect a different tone from someone who claims to be a Christian. I guess that I may be more harsh with a believer than a non-believer. Whether or not that is fair on my part. I think that if I feel the person is being honest in his words(even if the words or tone shows anger), my tone tends to be more pleasant. As opposed to someone I feel is just looking for a confrontation, or being dogmatic and arrogant.

Well, no matter what, as far as the board goes, we still need to maintain our guidelines. We all flub up at times, and that's OK. It's a consistent anger, or combativeness, or arrogance/disrespect, that is the problem. And this is in regards to the Christian member. Other members who come on just to insult the other members, or don't want a discussion really, but are set in their beliefs and just want to reiterate that over and over, won't last long here.

[Canuckster1127]

I guarantee you that the moderators of this board care about the people who come and go. We wouldn't be here if we didn't.

We're a Christian board which is not the same thing as a church, but we try to be open to all who come here. To be honest, sometimes the greater challenge is not with the people who come and go, which is typical of forums like this, but with the regulars who over time tend to begin to feel at home (which is great) but then begin to relax and behave toward others, other regulars and newcomers alike, as if they have a favored status, or they assume that others are famiiar with the history of the board and their participation which may or may not be true.

Moderators here are not only in that role but also participants and that can at times complicate things because we have the same dynamics that are at work for us.

It's very easy to throw out accusations of favortism. Truth be told, we're sometime accused of being too lenient on folks that have been here for a while and there may be some truth to that. We're not here to be cops. We're here to try to be senior members and I'll be the first to tell you that we don't always execute things perfectly. This isn't the first time we've had brush ups like this. In the past we've usually been able to broker some peace but it doesn't all depend upon us. When participants choose to take offense, withhold forgiveness and then transfer their frustrations onto the moderation of the board, then we're faced with how to react in a way that preserves this as a safe and polite a place as we can for all participants.

I'll tell you after being a participant and moderator on this board for more than 4 years that there's times I've shared with other moderators a desire to leave because sometimes I get tired of the flack and accusations that come for something that is really a labor of love but without the respect and recognition that comes in other forms of service. I've written enough here (maybe not well enough) but enough volume anyway, to fill a pretty good size book. That doesn't make me better than anyone else or worthy of anything more than anyone else, but it's easy to get discouraged and frustrated.

It saddens me to see what has taken place here not only because of the impact that it has on the individuals and personalities involved that I know and in many cases love. But I also think of how many people will find these threads later. These forums are indexed to search engines. For every person who posts here I would dare say there are 7 or 8 or more who come by who just read and say nothing. Some lurk for quite some time. For some that window may leave an impression that gives them an impression of christians as a whole, whether fair or not. Far more people will read the record left here than will join in coversation. What does it say?

What about them? Egos can get pretty enlarged over time when others continue to stroke that ego and tell you how smart and spiritual you are. That's as true for others as it is for me.

The question asked on this thread is Do Christians Apoligize, and so far the answer I see is, we may sometimes but not always or sometimes in a manner that really doesn't go much deeper than a superficial word or two.

I appreciate zeal for truth. I care about truth, but I care more about love because that is what God says will characterize His people more than anything else.

I'm reading this more and more lately.

1 Corinthians 13
Love
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Apologies are important and a part of this, but allow me to challenge myself first and if any want to come along with me, who name the name of Christ, are there any others here with courage to admit that they're not always loving and that some of the behavior we've engaged in ties more to our pride and egos than the love described above?

[zoegirl]

What is that old adage I hear? God gave us two ears and one mouth....?

[RickD]

What is that old adage I hear? God gave us two ears and one mouth....?

If God didn't give us two ears, then how would our wives words be able to go in one ear and out the other. If we only had one ear, then we'd have no excuse for not listening.