Communication with God

[cubeus19]

Hello, I was wanting to ask about and start a discussion about whether or not it is possible for modern day Christians to have a two way communication with God or have God directly speak to you in a literal or figurative way. Now for many years I attended Charismatic churches and watched many charismatic programs on television. And many of these people both in the charismatic churches and on television claim to feel the presence of God, or they claim that God directly speaks to them either through dreams, visions, or through a mental voice (aka still small voice) or through 'words of knowledge' from other like minded believers. But upon further investigation, I and many others have seen, that most if not all of these modern day experiences are either emotionally and imagination induced experiences that anyone can have over anything and or they are blatant false or fake acts intended to put on a show or for selfish or even perhaps unkind reasons, to gain control or favor in the church or with some of the people in attendance. The latter to me, would apply mostly to the charismatics on television while the former may apply more to the people in local charismatic churches. As of right now, I'm somewhat convinced or am currently leaning toward the idea that God no longer communicates with Christians in this day and age or at the very least He does not communicate with people through dreams, visions, or even through Bible reading. Now people may read something in the Bible that produces a profound emotional experience or appears to give them answers to questions or teaches them something that they can use down the road but as far as God deciding that He is going to talk to so and so through the Bible, I'm currently at the place to where I think that just doesn't happen, many believers may think it does but I'm more along the lines that it's mere coincidence. I'm basically also under the impression that all charismatic gifts have ceased and if they haven't somehow, it would be extremely difficult to sort out what is a real experience from God and what is either imaginative or a outright lie, since you have so many churches, cults, and groups many of whom do not hold to proper doctrine or who like to use these experiences to control, keep, and win followers.

I currently feel like the only real way we as Christians can know more about God is through Bible reading, reading of true Christian doctrine (by reading top Bible scholars or reading the ancient Greek and Hebrew manuscripts), and by studying apologetics and the classic arguments for God's existence. Right now I also feel like prayer is only a one way conversation with God, and it's mostly a venting session for Christians to let out their innermost feelings and frustrations as well as our gratitude to God. That's where I"m at currently intellectually and this is based on experience and knowledge of Christian groups, Christian doctrine, apologetics and philosophy. Now emotionally and 'in my heart' so to speak, I hope I"m wrong about alot of this. Personally right now, I don't have any love or affection in my life, in fact, for the most part, I've really have been deprived of love and affection from most of my family and what few friends (who are really just nice acquaintances not REAL friends) I have. At this point in my life I want or wanted to establish a close one on one relationship with God and be able to receive real affection and love from Him, not to mention I could use some direction for what He wants me to do with my life. But for now, with what I suspect God's nature and the way He chooses to communicate with man to be like, I don't think I"ll be able to have those things especially the love and affection from God, at least until after I"m dead and hopefully in heaven with Him.

Now as a way to hopefully show that I"m wrong, I want to ask you all about the Holy Spirit, if I"m truly saved (which I think I am since I believe that Christ is God and that He paid for my sin debt on the cross and rose again on the third day) I should have the Holy Spirit living inside of me. But here is where things get very confusing for me. Does the Holy Spirit talk to us inside? Are we supposed to 'feel' the Holy Spirit inside of us? If so, what does the Spirit feel like? How can I tell if it's really the Holy Spirit and not my emotions or imagination? Let's see, I've listened to a couple of lectures by apologist William Lane Craig on the Holy Spirit and even Craig doesn't make it clear enough to me. Craig mostly went on to say that the Holy Spirit helps Christians produce the 'fruit' of the Spirit like being nice, kind, and patient with everybody and so on, but he never mentioned much about the Holy Spirit communicating with us or giving us strength or love to make it through our days. So right now, I don't know how to make heads or tails out of how the Holy Spirit is supposed to work inside of us or how to even tell if we even have the Holy Spirit, I mean, if it's just by producing the fruit of the Spirit, like being nice, kind, and patient with other people I mean unbelievers can sometimes show those characteristics depending on if they are having a good day or not, just like I figure how a true Christian can have days where they do not show the fruit of the Spirit. So there just so many gray areas and not enough black and white areas like there needs to be on this issue just like many other areas related to Christianity. But that's where I currently stand both intellectually and emotionally on the issue and I hope you all will understand how I feel and be able to help point me to some things that will lead to some progress in my efforts to get closer to God. Thanks and God bless.

[Silvertusk]

Hi

This is has always been an issue with me as well. How does God talk to you? I have people in my church saying that "Well God has said to me that...."

And I am thinking - well why aren't I hearing him? It is very frustrating.

I believe If God does speak to people it is only very few people and not the type you see on TV. I do believe however, that his presense can certainly be felt and I have felt his presence at times when I have called out his name for help.

I do believe also that he does speak to us through the bible as well - and music and nature. But as for speaking out loud or definite works in your head - I certainly have never experienced anything of the sort - maybe I am unlucky in that respect.

Silvertusk.

[cslewislover]

Hi cubeus19. I really appreciate all that you're writing here. Here's a short thread that relates somewhat to what you're asking about: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =2&t=33419 There are other threads on the board that deal with tongues and charismatics. But, I want to answer you too. Personally, I think much of the charismatic movement is false, or maybe I should say all. I know that God still communicates to people though, and through people, so I don't dismiss people because they're had experiences with God. I've had experiences with Jesus and the Holy Spirit myself (including gifts of knowledge), so I wouldn't dismiss others' experience right-off-the-bat. There are very many people, however, that talk like they talk with God everyday . . . and it's unreal, in my view. I know people who look in the bible and say that God told them this or that, because they happened to read a verse that fits with what they want . . I have an RBC short essay up on another thread about this - maybe I can find it. Also, if you read the missions and persecuted church literature, you will read of missionaries who have experiences with God or of Muslims who have had Jesus appear to them, so that they may believe. Maybe I can find some of those too. A large and active group that has stories online is Voice of the Martyrs.

Your post is long and I have to go back and read the rest . . . (lol).

About being close to God, and longing for Him, that's wonderful and you just need to be persistent. It's hard to find the time to sit still, and still our minds, so that we may really focus on the Lord. But I think that's what it takes. Yes, we all too often just lift up quick prayers to God. Even though He's there and hears us, that's not too much of a relationship. As with any relationship, it takes time and effort. With God, to me, it's harder because of the busy-ness of life and other relationships.

Hmmmm. Your questions regarding the Holy Spirit are great. It's a difficult thing. I just know that God is with me, but I want more of that in my life too. Once you've felt the Holy Spirit work in you, and you know it's Him, you want it more. But it relates to what I said above, about devoting yourself to the Lord. That's what it seems to me. The times I've had more spiritual experiences where the Lord worked through me, were the times, generally, that I was very focused on the Lord, and not other things in this world. You just accept Him and His love, period, and try to empty yourself (not in an Eastern sense, but the focus is on the Lord, not on you) of selfishness, and worship Him. If you love Him, just stop questioning Him and tell Him you are His.

Don't ever be discouraged, though, because things don't happen quick enough or you don't have the same experience someone else does.

(Here's the link that has the RBC essay I mentioned - actually, there are two essays: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... =2&t=33744)

[cubeus19]

Thanks for the response cslewislover, let's see as far as I can tell, in my opinion (not God's but mine) I've been rather persistent, but the closest I've come to have one on one communication with God is through having warm feelings of love and peace during or after praying. It's been several years since I've had those feelings but they may or may not have been from God. I just don't know. So the method that you give as far as developing that closer relationship is by finding more time to think and pray to God, confess and get forgivingness of all your sins, and with time and effort if it's God's will He will communicate with us? If I missed anything to this method let me know. Also, when you had these experiences how did you know that it was God and not your imagination or emotion creating the experiences? Because, to me, if God is wanting to make you feel his love or He wants to give you advice on something, I assume when the experience happens it would be like something you can't control, like being in a room with low gravity, just like you can't keep yourself on the ground or keep yourself from floating, with a real God experience, you will almost be momentarily controlled if you will by God or if He is speaking to you, you would not be able to turn it off so to speak like you can with your emotions or thoughts. Is that the way you have experienced God or is it something completely different to what I have in mind? Also, I'd like to find out more about the Muslim dream experiences and the experiences of persecuted Christians. I know that many atheists would love to dismiss those as mere coincidences or fabrications so I'd like to find more info to the credibility and the details to these experiences. These do sound more legitimate than many charismatic experiences that I'm used to hearing about. Also, one more thing, what these 'gifts of knowledge' that you have experienced via the Holy Spirit? I've heard about them loosely in charismatic circles but they never tried to explain what they are. So if you can, please share with me what those are as well. Thank you for your time and input cslewislover, God bless.

[truthman]

Cubeus,
I am sorry for the confusion you have been through in your Christian experience. Don't lose hope, though.
I will try to answer in an orderly but short manner to make it as comprehensible as I can.
1. You are correct to feel assurance that you have been saved because you have put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ the Son of God who died for your sins. John 3:15-18

2. God is 3 persons but only one God. When you trusted the Son of God as your Saviour, the Holy Spirit of God came into you and your spirit was born of God and you became a child of God. Now, God the Father is your true Father. Your Heavenly Father loves you deeply: more than you can comprehend, and is taking care of you and working in your life as a good father should and would.

3. Jesus taught us that when we pray, we should pray directly to God the Father in Heaven. Jesus said to address Him as "Our Father which art in Heaven" because He is Jesus' Father and He is your Father. He also taught us to pray to the Father in Heaven in Jesus' name: in other words not in our own authority but in the authority of Jesus.

4. We are also taught in 1 John 1:6 that if we walk in darkness (commit sins) then we cannot say that we have fellowship (a close personal relationship) with Him because He is light. On the other hand 1 John 1:7 tells us that if we walk in the light (not sinning) then we have fellowship with Him made possible because the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all of our sins. So, since we all sin, it is very important for us to regularly confess our sins and experience the cleansing of our sins regularly 1 John 1:9. Failure to confess sins regularly will cause a lack of fellowship with God and make you feel like God isn't there. Your sin has broken the close fellowship. Therefore, I confess my sins directly to God AT LEAST once a day, and any other time I am aware of them.

5. God does speak to us through His holy Word the Bible. It is more than just reading a book, because the Word of God is "living and powerful" (Hebrews 4:12) and at times we do feel like we are given a particularly clear understanding of a passage and the feeling that it is specially meant for us at this particular time.

6. God can and does speak to us in our heart. I have definitely experienced it many times in my life. I especially remember the day when I was 15 and during the altar call God clearly spoke to me telling me to go forward and surrender my life to be a minister of the gospel. It was not an audible voice, but it was so clear in my mind that it sort of scared me and I didn't budge. However, clear messages like that have been few and far between. Many times in prayer I have felt the love and peace you described. I love those "emotional messages" from God the most. I know they are from God because they match the "fruits of the Spirit" as mentioned in Galatians 5:22

7. It is important that we learn to discern between truth and error. We have to read and study the Bible and be well acquainted with truth in order to be able to discern error. We also need to attend a good church where there is more than a lot of hype and entertainment: good sound preaching and Bible study. Then, when we encounter spirits, we are to test them by the truth recorded in the Bible because there are many lying, deceiving spirits. (1 John 4:1)

God bless you. May you grow in grace and truth, and actually experience true fellowship with God. It is wonderful.

[robyn hill]

I understand your confusion. I remember, while in college, I used to get very confused when an idea of what I should do with my life would pop into my mind. I would wonder..."Is that God, or me?" I can tell you, and this is about 15 years since I graduated college, I still wonder once and a while, but for me, God isn't a voice but rather a presence. In other words, I see God in the choices I make, the direction my life is taking, the amazing occurences that happen when I pray etc... I think maybe that is because God is greater than words, He just IS. I can feel Lord's presence and his hand in my life. For me, God's presence has increased as I have grown as a Christian, and when I say this I mean my asking for his help. Now, looking back, I see such a transformation of myself when I compare myself to my college days (a time of many questions and struggles), and so it is more that the holy spirit has changed me, not as a result of a two way conversation, but rather through trust, prayer and even struggles. It reminds me of when we wonder why God doesn't just visually show himself, and I think that is because he wants us to grow and trust him. If we heard a voice or saw an image, we might just be content that God is indeed there, and not feel the need to pray, trust, or ask for help. I can tell you that I definitely know God is with me, in fact I should think this is a much stronger and real feeling, or transformation, than if I had heard voices in my head. Changing through God, rather than just hearing God, helps me feel involved in the relationship process with Him.

[cslewislover]

Thanks for the response cslewislover, let's see as far as I can tell, in my opinion (not God's but mine) I've been rather persistent, but the closest I've come to have one on one communication with God is through having warm feelings of love and peace during or after praying. It's been several years since I've had those feelings but they may or may not have been from God. I just don't know. So the method that you give as far as developing that closer relationship is by finding more time to think and pray to God, confess and get forgivingness of all your sins, and with time and effort if it's God's will He will communicate with us? If I missed anything to this method let me know.

Hi cubeus. Well, by "my method" I guess I mean that your mind needs to be quiet and still. It's hard to get our minds quiet and still! I think this helps in "hearing" God, but He is always with us. To feel love and peace during prayer, worship, or bible reading, I'm sure is something from God, or our soul's response to God. There is a mystics thread here, in the Christian Theology section. I'm reading a book now that I want to summarize there. Before you freak out about the term "mystic," it just means having experiences with God. Jonathan Edwards and his wife were both "mystics." Reading about people who have had these experiences will give you a feel of how they abandoned themselves to God. But not everyone has these experiences, and it certainly doesn't mean God loves you less or something. Who knows why some people do, and some don't?

Also, when you had these experiences how did you know that it was God and not your imagination or emotion creating the experiences? Because, to me, if God is wanting to make you feel his love or He wants to give you advice on something, I assume when the experience happens it would be like something you can't control, like being in a room with low gravity, just like you can't keep yourself on the ground or keep yourself from floating, with a real God experience, you will almost be momentarily controlled if you will by God or if He is speaking to you, you would not be able to turn it off so to speak like you can with your emotions or thoughts. Is that the way you have experienced God or is it something completely different to what I have in mind?

I don't think it would be good to describe all my experiences on the board, but I can say that when they happened - the "more dramatic" ones, I guess you'd say (which haven't been a great number) - that I knew exactly where they were from. They were very powerful and I would not have thought of stopping them, even if I had wanted to for some reason. I knew if they were from Jesus or if they were from the Holy Spirit. I don't know how, but I knew. The Holy Spirit is like . . . a beautiful and peaceful garden, but very intense at the same time, at least that's how I think of Him . . . lol, I think Tolkien captures it some if you read all his works. You know, as far as having these experiences, part of it, it seems to me, is that I probably would not have ever fully believed in Jesus if I didn't have them. God does what is necessary to have His children come to Him.

You might really enjoy reading Waiting for God by Simone Weil. It was put together after her death, but taken from her notes and writings. She was a young and brilliant philosopher who didn't believe in God, but then had experiences and of course believed in the Lord. She talks of obedience to the Lord being the number one thing, and she says, wonderfully, that if you search for truth, it won't be long until you fall in Jesus' arms, because He is truth.

Also, I'd like to find out more about the Muslim dream experiences and the experiences of persecuted Christians. I know that many atheists would love to dismiss those as mere coincidences or fabrications so I'd like to find more info to the credibility and the details to these experiences. These do sound more legitimate than many charismatic experiences that I'm used to hearing about. Also, one more thing, what these 'gifts of knowledge' that you have experienced via the Holy Spirit? I've heard about them loosely in charismatic circles but they never tried to explain what they are. So if you can, please share with me what those are as well. Thank you for your time and input cslewislover, God bless.

I'd need to do a little searching for some Muslim conversion stories that you can read online, but a great book, written by Muslim converts, is Into the Den of Infidels: Our Search for the Truth. It's not only remarkable and encouraging, but you can see the scriptures in the light of people who are looking at them fresh. It was put together by Voice of the Martyrs.

Gifts of knowledge are like when you say something to someone, and that something is something that they need to know. You probably won't know it ahead of time, but you may realize it right after it happened, or when they come back and talk to you about it later.

I hope this helps, and I'll see if I can find some more links for you. If you want to know more about my experiences - just so you can know that God does communicate with people today (beyond making us aware that He is always with us) - you can pm me. Gabrielman also has had some experiences, and I'm sure some others have here too. Sometimes, too, it's just a matter of seeing Gods work, having faith that coincidences aren't just chance.

PS: CS Lewis' wife also had visions of Christ. That's how she became a believer. Lewis himself had some levels of spiritual experiences, at least that we know of (who knows if he had more that he simply didn't write about).

[cubeus19]

Thank you again for your response cslewislover, this does leave me with some more work to do to see if I can establish better communication with God. But before I'm done with this topic I was wondering, how will I know if I'm morally pure and sinless enough to hear from God? I know I should confess my sins and get forgiviness from them on a constant basis, but do we have to be at a stage of moral perfection before God decides to communicate something to us and if so, how do we know we have reached that level? On another note, I do want to point out, a possible reason why I'm and many other believers like me have not had good luck with one on one communication with God (this reason was given to me by another Christian whom I"m friends with) he told me that God may be holding Himself back from me so that when I get to heaven my reward or experience with God will be greater and more rewarding than if He showered me with experiences in this life. I guess it's like the idea that a person enjoys a drink of cold water better after they have walked a long time in the desert and are dying of thirst than if they are well hydrated, in a air conditioned room and just taking a drink of water out of pure randomness. So you never know what God may be up to with me and other people like me, I guess He may treat each person or each believer differently because of the fact that everyone is different and no two people are exactly alike and God works with that person according to their unique personality. I guess it would be pretty bland if God gave everyone the exact same treatment over everything. But that's just me thinking out loud. If I run into any other good insights on this topic I'll let you all know. Thanks again for your time and God bless.

[Canuckster1127]

Thank you again for your response cslewislover, this does leave me with some more work to do to see if I can establish better communication with God. But before I'm done with this topic I was wondering, how will I know if I'm morally pure and sinless enough to hear from God? I know I should confess my sins and get forgiviness from them on a constant basis, but do we have to be at a stage of moral perfection before God decides to communicate something to us and if so, how do we know we have reached that level? On another note, I do want to point out, a possible reason why I'm and many other believers like me have not had good luck with one on one communication with God (this reason was given to me by another Christian whom I"m friends with) he told me that God may be holding Himself back from me so that when I get to heaven my reward or experience with God will be greater and more rewarding than if He showered me with experiences in this life. I guess it's like the idea that a person enjoys a drink of cold water better after they have walked a long time in the desert and are dying of thirst than if they are well hydrated, in a air conditioned room and just taking a drink of water out of pure randomness. So you never know what God may be up to with me and other people like me, I guess He may treat each person or each believer differently because of the fact that everyone is different and no two people are exactly alike and God works with that person according to their unique personality. I guess it would be pretty bland if God gave everyone the exact same treatment over everything. But that's just me thinking out loud. If I run into any other good insights on this topic I'll let you all know. Thanks again for your time and God bless.

You will never be morally pure and sinless enough on your own before God decides to communicate in any way to you. The good news is that you don't have to be. The only basis upon which we're "good enough" to be saved is based on Christ and what He has done for us. Having begun in that fashion there's no reason to believe we don't maintain our relationship with God ultimately on the same basis. The Bible is full of examples in which God communicates by different means with people who are nowhere near "good enough." Read the story of David and consider all that David did wrong and yet He was still a man after God's own heart.

If I might, and this is just personal on my part based upon the experience of 35 years of walking with Christ; don't worry about how God will speak to you. That's up to God, not you. God has some definite ways that he uses to speak to us in place already. God speaks in part to us through creation and he is revealed there by it's beauty and the wonderful way in which it works together. God speaks to us through the way in which our minds and hearts look for Him even when we're not intellectually sure that he exists or that he cares for us specifically. God speaks to us through others, especially those who are brothers and sisters in Christ. That's not perfect either because they're no more perfect than we are. But I believe God uses others, and not just preachers and teachers, although he certainly uses them too. Don't miss that people who are in our lives that don't seem too "important." God can and does use anyone. God spealks to us through the Bible. We need to be careful that we understand it rightly and that we don't take it out of context and assume that when God is speaking to others in other times that that specific message is also with us. However, because God is also the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, we can expect if our spiritual ear is tuned and listening for Him that because He is there and He loves us, He will speak to us.

There is a constant spiritual witness that takes place between our spirit and the Spirit of God too and with maturity and practice listening and hearing Him, we ought to be more atuned to his voice.

Other means God can use without us seeking after them. The others are enough but not what God is limited to.

blessings,

bart

[cslewislover]

Cubeus, what Bart said is wonderful. God does communicate with us all of the time, and you sound like you want to be more attuned to it. That's great! No, you don't have to be perfect or sinless, that's impossible. When Christ first came to me, well, that's when I became a Christian. So obviously I wasn't anywhere near perfect (I knew He was drawing me, too, based on some things). CS Lewis' wife had a similar, if not more dramatic, experience when she became a Christian. So don't worry about that. The important thing is to love Christ and to want to hear from Him and want to be with Him. Christ is always around and He is what holds all together, so if you believe that all that happens has His hand in it, you'll begin to focus on Him like that and you will be more in touch with Him, I think. The Lord hold and bless you too.

I found an online page with some testimonies of Muslims http://www.exmuslim.com/ (scroll to the bottom). I just read one so far, so I don't know if any talk of visions, but no matter - you can see God working with their lives and their finding of Christ (I say "their" since I've read many in the past from other places, like that book I reference)!