Convince me

[Jumalaton]

This is my first post, a short introduction: Username Jumalaton means ''Godless'', im a 'strong atheist' (i dont think strong is a good word to describe it, the proper word would be vankka atheist, but i have no proper translation for the word).

what i hope to find is scientifically sceptic theists to try to convince me of god being real. I have not read the whole site yet, just a little, but its [love] 2.30AM and i gotta sleep too.
If i havent read the whole site yet, why am i posting on the forums asking you to convince me?
Because i hope that maybe someone here, living on an other time zone, might write a ''small'' synopsis about the things you say prove god is real.

why am i not reading the whole page and after that post this?
because i dont like reading thick text from a computer screen, gives me a headache and my eyes hurt. and for some reason its harder to read english than finnish, even though i use english more than finnish these days(if thinking doesnt count).

yet one question, how is jahve more real than thor, ra, asator, ahti, krishna, perkele, turisas and all the other ''pagan'' gods?


edit: [love]?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Username Jumalaton means ''Godless'', im a 'strong atheist'

Good. I don't like wishy-washy atheists.

what i hope to find is scientifically sceptic theists to try to convince me of god being real.

Huh? Why on earth would an atheist - a strong atheist - hope to find someone that will convince him that God is real??? Are you some kind of nut?

If i havent read the whole site yet, why am i posting on the forums asking you to convince me?
Because i hope that maybe someone here, living on an other time zone, might write a ''small'' synopsis about the things you say prove god is real.

If you are really interested, just print out the articles you like and read them on paper.

yet one question, how is jahve more real than thor, ra, asator, ahti, krishna, perkele, turisas and all the other ''pagan'' gods?

Don't worry, God is just as unreal to you as Thor.

FL

[Gabrielman]

Come on FL, he has done anything wrong here. No need to beat him up (lol although you are probably just getting started) but we really shouldn't call people 'some kind of nut'. If he is here to seek answers then maybe we can provide him with some, okay?

[Canuckster1127]

This is my first post, a short introduction: Username Jumalaton means ''Godless'', im a 'strong atheist' (i dont think strong is a good word to describe it, the proper word would be vankka atheist, but i have no proper translation for the word).

what i hope to find is scientifically sceptic theists to try to convince me of god being real. I have not read the whole site yet, just a little, but its [love] 2.30AM and i gotta sleep too.
If i havent read the whole site yet, why am i posting on the forums asking you to convince me?
Because i hope that maybe someone here, living on an other time zone, might write a ''small'' synopsis about the things you say prove god is real.

why am i not reading the whole page and after that post this?
because i dont like reading thick text from a computer screen, gives me a headache and my eyes hurt. and for some reason its harder to read english than finnish, even though i use english more than finnish these days(if thinking doesnt count).

yet one question, how is jahve more real than thor, ra, asator, ahti, krishna, perkele, turisas and all the other ''pagan'' gods?


edit: [love]?

Please read the Board Purpose and Discussion guidelines. We're not here to debate for it's own sake. If after reading them you want to start a discussion, you're welcome to do so. There's a great deal of material up on the main site that should serve as a good starter for you.

Thanks,

bart

[Gman]

If you are looking for 100% proof, you will not find it.. . Nothing is said not to be 100% factual or completely answered when it comes to science. There are theories, yes, but no smoking guns on either side when it comes to the topic of origins. What we have here are only weights of evidence in favor of one view and sometimes neglecting the other. Sometimes even scientists don't always agree on the scientific outcome of the evolutionary or design predictions either.

In other words, choose your faith carefully... It's just a belief.

Good luck...

[narnia4]

What do you mean by "scientifically skeptic theists"? This site was made by a scientist.

There are many compelling arguments (in my opinion, anyway), on the main site here. As another poster mentioned, if you have trouble reading it for some reason you could print it out. If you have any specific questions I would be happy to try to answer them, but it would really be a waste to write out something long and new in response to this big question when there are already several very good arguments on this site all ready for you!

As far as our God compared to pagan gods- there is no comparison as far as character, power, or the proof for their existence. When you think about it, it's pretty amazing that humans couldn't even make up gods that were comparable to the Christian God.

Just a question- why are you here? If you consider yourself a "strong atheist", do you have no doubts on your position? Are you here because you want to reinforce your atheistic beliefs, or are you just "curious"?

[truthman]

yet one question, how is jahve more real than thor, ra, asator, ahti, krishna, perkele, turisas and all the other ''pagan'' gods?

By jahve I presume you refer to Jahwe or Jehovah, the Hebrew name for God transliterated into English.

The big difference is simple and big. Jehovah, the God of the Bible and Christianity is infinite. Other gods are finite.
A good atheist can easily prove that a finite god does not exist. No one can prove that the infinite God does not exist.

[Jumalaton]

Please read the Board Purpose and Discussion guidelines. We're not here to debate for it's own sake. If after reading them you want to start a discussion, you're welcome to do so. There's a great deal of material up on the main site that should serve as a good starter for you.

Thanks,

bart

sorry for that, i only checked the board purpose if im allowed to post here as i though the rules would be pretty much the same as in other forums.

If you are really interested, just print out the articles you like and read them on paper.

ok, i might borrow somebodys printer soon.

Just a question- why are you here? If you consider yourself a "strong atheist", do you have no doubts on your position? Are you here because you want to reinforce your atheistic beliefs, or are you just "curious"?

of course i want to know all the possible arguments for a god to exist, i didnt say i would be a fundementalist. this seemed like at least one of the best places, look at the name: ''evidence for god''.

Huh? Why on earth would an atheist - a strong atheist - hope to find someone that will convince him that God is real??? Are you some kind of nut?

Seems like the way i made my question was quite confusing, i wanted to hear the best/most convincing arguments for gods existance, not like i would expect to get any that would convince me.

ill be back

[Canuckster1127]

I'm encouraged by your response and again, please understand the board purpose and guidelines. We certainly do exist and are very glad to have anyone who is honestly seeking to understand these things and atheists in that context are welcome. We've had several atheists over the course of the history of this board who have posted here and can walk the fine line that our purpose allows for in that context.

I''m not seeking to discourage you from having a conversation. I'm simply trying to help you understand going into it that we're not here to have a debate with someone who has already made up his mind and just wants to argue. We're very happy to discuss things respectfully and glad you're here if that is your desire as well.

This is intended to serve as an introduction to you and also as a reminder to the others who are on this thread as well. Please everyone involved, if the original poster decides after understanding our purpose and guideline and wants to continue, it's fine to be passionate in responding for what we believe is truth, but let's also be respectful and see what the God we believe might do if we engage respectfully as well.

Jumalaton, it would help if you would narrow down your questions and be more specific. It's not really fair or realistic to ask a broad question on a forum and expect us to walk you through the high volume of material you can find on this site. Once you've taken a look at it maybe you could start with a more specific question. If you choose to do that, please let me encourage you to do it with a mind that is open to hearing what others have to say who have come to different conclusions than the ones you currently have and at least for my part, I promise to do the same.

bart

[smiley]

I suggest you (the original poster) studying the Historical Jesus. Begin with this series of videos to gain some interest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdvjJrKd1do

[Jumalaton]

I suggest you (the original poster) studying the Historical Jesus. Begin with this series of videos to gain some interest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdvjJrKd1do

not really anything new, i know the romans used whips with sharp steel pieces in the end, wich slice flesh off ones body and kill pretty easily and painfully. i know how crusifiction works.
the problem is that hes using mostly the letters of paul, no texts outside the bible.

please dont provoke me to breaking the rules of your board
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLC3XZ4F ... re=related
im not saying a guy named jesus didnt exist, i havent read enought about the subject to know enought to make my mind about the historical existance of jesus, but its on my ''orientate yourself list''.

Who is the message board intended for?
This message board is publicly open to anyone who wishes to register, and participate in discussions, however it is only intended for a specific audience. It is intended to serve as a place for:

1. Sincere seekers to inquire and ask questions;
2. Christians to give and receive encouragement and instruction; and
3. Non-Christians who are willing to "walk a thin line" and dialogue sensitively and respectfully.

what does it mean to walk a thin line?
i am always willing to dialogue sensitively and respectfully, i always do, but its hard as some believers get easily offended just by questioning their beliefs.

i have read the board purpose and guidelines, but a couple of things are still a little unclear to me, so can please some moderator anwer this: i am not allowed to ''attack christian beliefs'', but am i allowed to have an healthy discussion about the teachings of the bible, morality and maybe in the future about the histority of biblical scriptures.

ill try not to disobey your rules, tell me no and ill leave you alone

[BavarianWheels]

i have read the board purpose and guidelines, but a couple of things are still a little unclear to me, so can please some moderator anwer this: i am not allowed to ''attack christian beliefs'', but am i allowed to have an healthy discussion about the teachings of the bible, morality and maybe in the future about the histority of biblical scriptures.

Actually, I'm not quite sure why this would be a rule. IMHO, both Christianity and Atheism lean heavily on faith. One leans on faith in a loving Creator and the other leans on faith that gasses, if left long enough produce a thinking human. Or as some believe happen, other "intelligent being" planted life here. Either way, one cannot "attack" the other without attacking self.
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[Jumalaton]

Actually, I'm not quite sure why this would be a rule. IMHO, both Christianity and Atheism lean heavily on faith. One leans on faith in a loving Creator and the other leans on faith that gasses, if left long enough produce a thinking human. Or as some believe happen, other "intelligent being" planted life here. Either way, one cannot "attack" the other without attacking self.
.
.

both believing in a god and not believing in a god lean heavily on faith? isnt that like saying it takes courage (for a person who has never ski-jumped before) not to ski-jump? or that you need musical skills in order to not play an instrument? or that it takes faith to not know how the universe got here?

in estonia, over 80% of the population are atheists, but over 50% believe in spirits and only about 66% of estonians think that humen did not live at the same time with dinosaurs. thats a good example that not believing in a god doesnt mean that you believe in evolution or that you dont believe in other supernatural beings.

[Canuckster1127]

Jumalaton,

I can understand why some of those things may be hard to understand if english is not your first language.

The reason we have this standard is because in the past when we did not, we found that there was an large amount of people who wanted to come on who were not interested in understanding Christ and Christianity and they just wanted to argue and promote their own beliefs, or lack of belief in the case of atheists. Those of us here who are moderators, found it was difficult to handle all of the traffic and we're not here to argue and debate for it's own sake.

So the reason I pointed you to that wasn't to tell you that you can't post. It was just to make sure you were aware of why this board exists and that we're not just here to argue with people who have already made up their minds and are just looking for some one to debate with. If you are sincerely interested in exploring these issues and are willing to converse respectfully with an open mind, then that is what is meant by "walking the thin line".

Thanks for asking and for being willing to respect our standards in that regard. The very fact that you're asking and being polite about it is very much appreciated.

bart

[narnia4]

I'd be interested to hear how a person would justify believing in spirits without believing in God.

The reason why it takes faith for either side (about almost anything important) is because your belief about whether there is a God or not is not an island onto itself. What you believe about God effects your worldview. Too often people make bold statements about a subject and fail to consider how one belief can effect everything else you believe.

Those statistics about Estonia that you cited (I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were separate surveys that got different results for different reasons and aren't complementary) are a case in point- most people don't have a consistent worldview. Even look at the most popular "pop atheists". Dawkins calls himself a "passionately anti-Darwinian" in human affairs. I wonder how on God's green earth HE of all people, can justify being "passionately anti-Darwinian" in things like morality. Fact is, I really don't think he can because even he and others like him borrow extensively from a Christian worldview while pretending to denounce that worldview. It takes faith to be an atheist because atheists take a lot for granted, as Christians can in some cases.

Also, as far as the rules go- I think you've been pretty polite so far, so if you continue that you should be ok.