Children of God are Born Again with Eternal Life

[truthman]

According to God's word in the verses listed above, you must be able to say , "I HAVE eternal life" 1 John 5:13 Now that you have been born of God and have eternal life, there is absolutely no way you can be unborn of God and lose eternal life, because if you could, then you don't have eternal life. If you believe that it is possible to stop being a child of God, then you do not believe that you have eternal life and are rejecting the clear and obvious meaning of Scripture.

Which is fine, so let's go back to what we were discussing and what Jac was saying. If someone believes and secures himself eternal life, lives a pious life, displays the fruits of the Spirit, and so on. Then one day and for whatever reason he stops believing, blasphemes the Holy Spirit, goes on a stealing and murdering spree. According to what you've said before, this man was never truly saved. So I ask again, where does that leave absolute assurance and OSAS? Jac says if you want to believe in absolute assurance then you must also believe such a man will still be saved regardless of his actions post believing. You must believe that if Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot had believed in their youth then went on to commit all the atrocities they had committed they too would still be saved. Either scripture says you can have absolute assurance and nothing, nothing you do can change that, or absolute assurance is non-existent. Those are the only 2 logical conclusions.

Look at these verses above.

THOSE BORN AGAIN HAVE THE RIGHTEOUS, SINLESS, NATURE OF GOD.
A.1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
B.1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
C.1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
D.1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
E.1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

There are clearly some things that children of God CANNOT do because they have been born of God with the nature of God.

[Byblos]

According to God's word in the verses listed above, you must be able to say , "I HAVE eternal life" 1 John 5:13 Now that you have been born of God and have eternal life, there is absolutely no way you can be unborn of God and lose eternal life, because if you could, then you don't have eternal life. If you believe that it is possible to stop being a child of God, then you do not believe that you have eternal life and are rejecting the clear and obvious meaning of Scripture.

Which is fine, so let's go back to what we were discussing and what Jac was saying. If someone believes and secures himself eternal life, lives a pious life, displays the fruits of the Spirit, and so on. Then one day and for whatever reason he stops believing, blasphemes the Holy Spirit, goes on a stealing and murdering spree. According to what you've said before, this man was never truly saved. So I ask again, where does that leave absolute assurance and OSAS? Jac says if you want to believe in absolute assurance then you must also believe such a man will still be saved regardless of his actions post believing. You must believe that if Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot had believed in their youth then went on to commit all the atrocities they had committed they too would still be saved. Either scripture says you can have absolute assurance and nothing, nothing you do can change that, or absolute assurance is non-existent. Those are the only 2 logical conclusions.

Look at these verses above.

THOSE BORN AGAIN HAVE THE RIGHTEOUS, SINLESS, NATURE OF GOD.
A.1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
B.1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
C.1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
D.1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
E.1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

There are clearly some things that children of God CANNOT do because they have been born of God with the nature of God.

In other words, you don't want to answer or deal with the implications. Fair enough, thank you.

[Byblos]

If someone believes and secures himself eternal life, lives a pious life, displays the fruits of the Spirit, and so on. Then one day and for whatever reason he stops believing, blasphemes the Holy Spirit, goes on a stealing and murdering spree. According to what you've said before, this man was never truly saved. So I ask again, where does that leave absolute assurance and OSAS?

I think first we need to ask if such a case is even possible. At least, I think it would help to seriously consider it. I think it was truthman that posted a bunch of commentaries on Hebrews 6:4-6 in another thread and one of them said something like: "We can speculate all day what would happen if the sun didn't rise tomorrow, but does that mean there's a chance it will actually happen?" Or something to that effect.

My point is, we can argue till Jesus comes back what would happen to a "truly saved" person that "fell away", but maybe we should first consider if it's even possible. (Or did you already do that? I don't know why, but I've been having problems following these discussions lately. Maybe this is all too far over my head right now.)

There are many, many cases of people who truly believed they were saved to later be absolutely convinced they don't believe in God.

But the question is not whether or not a true believer will stop believing. The question is whether or not one can have absolute assurance, considering it is possible for one's belief to be proven to be no belief at all, and what the implications are.

[A Y323]

Ok, so you know of a lot of cases like that. Well I don't, but then again I don't know a lot of people anyway. I guess it's like I said, this is too far over my head. I do enjoy reading it though.

[One of Many]

Truthman,
Consider the following verses in Romans 8:22,23,24,25

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Isn't Paul teaching that we are not even adopted sons yet? And that we won't be until the redemption of our bodies, which will happen at the resurection. So up until that time a Brother could (out of free will) fall away.

Please don't misunderstand, I am not trying to cause discontent. I just enjoy a "healthy dialouge"!!



Thanks,

[sinnerbybirth]

You avoided answering the question.

WOW! Truthman, I don't quite know what you're asking for. Do I HAVE eternal life today? That is sort of an oxymoron, I have eternal life for........ eternity, not just for today.
I will admit, I am not very pharisistic in my belief of the new testament (please don't assume I'm saying this about you). Salvation is simple IMHO. Matthew 11:30 . For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

Quick question: Do you HAVE eternal life today?

Yes, I have eternal life. Forever and ever, .

[truthman]

Yes, I have eternal life. Forever and ever, .

Then if it is eternal, there is absolutely no way for it to end. If you could do something to make it end, and then go to hell, it would not be eternal.

(So many questions, so little time, sigh.)

[truthman]

Truthman,
Consider the following verses in Romans 8:22,23,24,25

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Isn't Paul teaching that we are not even adopted sons yet? And that we won't be until the redemption of our bodies, which will happen at the resurection. So up until that time a Brother could (out of free will) fall away.

Please don't misunderstand, I am not trying to cause discontent. I just enjoy a "healthy dialouge"!!

Thanks,

Good question.
1. Birth and adoption are two different things. We are children of God by BIRTH the instant we trust Christ as our Saviour. (John 1:12-13)
2. Because we are born of God as infant children, we are not ready to receive our full inheritance. (Galatians 4:1-2)
3. The instant we are born of God we receive the Holy Spirit of adoption which is the earnest (down payment) of the full inheritance to be received at resurrection. (Romans 8:15; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14)
4. The Greek word translated adoption is uiothesia which means "son placing". While it can mean adoption as we think of it (it does in modern Greek), in ancient times they had ceremony for when a child came of age and was installed as an heir. It was much like the Bar Mitzvah of the Jews today. That coming of age when we receive the full inheritance is what the Scriptures are referring to when they say that we are waiting for adoption which will take place when our physical bodies are redeemed at resurrection. (Romans 8:23)

[truthman]

In other words, you don't want to answer or deal with the implications. Fair enough, thank you.

Byblos,
It is not that I don't want to answer. I do want you to look at the Scriptures I quoted, understand what they mean and draw some conclusions from them.
If you still don't see it, I will explain in more detail.

[truthman]

But the question is not whether or not a true believer will stop believing. The question is whether or not one can have absolute assurance, considering it is possible for one's belief to be proven to be no belief at all, and what the implications are.

Yes, a person can know whom he has believed and be persuaded that He is able to keep the soul that he has committed into His keeping safe and secure until the day of judgment.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

And, a person can know that he has eternal life (1 John 5:13)

[Byblos]

In other words, you don't want to answer or deal with the implications. Fair enough, thank you.

Byblos,
It is not that I don't want to answer. I do want you to look at the Scriptures I quoted, understand what they mean and draw some conclusions from them.
If you still don't see it, I will explain in more detail.

Truthman,

I am familiar with the scriptures you are quoting and am fully aware that you believe they teach eternal security. Whether or not I disagree with that is irrelevant. For the sake of the argument assume that I am in full agreement, ok?

Given that you believe it is possible a faith can turn out to be false faith, however genuine it might seem at the time, can you honestly say one can have absolute assurance? I mean I can ask you personally the question: you said you already have eternal life. Can you be absolutely sure 10, 15, 20 years from now that you won't change your mind about God? If you're honest enough (not suggesting you're not, just sayin') then your answer must be no I cannot be absolutely sure because no one can predict the future. And even if you did, there are others who were where you are right now, absolutely sure they had eternal life, to later become apostates. What would you tell these people? That their faith wasn't genuine? At the time they certainly believed it was genuine and believed they had eternal life. Now you're telling them they don't have eternal life, which contradicts what you said about once having eternal life one cannot lose by definition. I'm sure you will object 'but it wasn't genuine faith, they really didn't have eternal life', which would be exactly the point, they thought they had absolute assurance but it turned out they were wrong. If one can lose their eternal life by proving they never had it, then no one can have absolute assurance that they do have it now. It is really that simple. Either you have absolutely assurance and no amount of apostasy will take it away, or assurance can at best be a moral, not an absolute one.

[cslewislover]

After thinking about this, sort-of, for a couple of days, I've come to think something that I haven't thought before. It had been really inconceivable to me that someone, after having experienced Christ and having accepted Him, could possibly deny Him later. But I've been thinking of free will. We always have free will. If we decide later, based on our free will, that we don't want to be with God, then God cannot keep us in chains (as it were) and make us be with Him. I think that, because of all the verses in the NT, including some parables and such by Christ Himself, about perseverance, that we can "lose our salvation." I had read in some commentaries about this subject that salvation is a process in the NT, but we have a different mind-set today and have a hard time with this. I very firmly believe that we can have assurance of salvation, but I think this is for the believer - the believer who keeps on believing. As long as we believe, nothing will separate us from Christ. But if we deny Christ after "believing," it would imply that He would have to do His work on the cross over again - which He will not. If you deny Him after knowing Him, He can deny you to the Father and say, "I never knew you." It's interesting to think of, the power of our free will. I don't know what could possibly lead a person to deny Christ after having supposedly accepted Him, but it seems that the possibility exists. But Christ in His great love would never let anyone be snatched away who wants to be with Him. And why would a nonbeliever care about assurance of salvation? It would seem to me that it would be repugnant to them.

[truthman]

Given that you believe it is possible a faith can turn out to be false faith, however genuine it might seem at the time, can you honestly say one can have absolute assurance? I mean I can ask you personally the question: you said you already have eternal life. Can you be absolutely sure 10, 15, 20 years from now that you won't change your mind about God? If you're honest enough (not suggesting you're not, just sayin') then your answer must be no I cannot be absolutely sure because no one can predict the future. And even if you did, there are others who were where you are right now, absolutely sure they had eternal life, to later become apostates. What would you tell these people? That their faith wasn't genuine? At the time they certainly believed it was genuine and believed they had eternal life. Now you're telling them they don't have eternal life, which contradicts what you said about once having eternal life one cannot lose by definition. I'm sure you will object 'but it wasn't genuine faith, they really didn't have eternal life', which would be exactly the point, they thought they had absolute assurance but it turned out they were wrong. If one can lose their eternal life by proving they never had it, then no one can have absolute assurance that they do have it now. It is really that simple. Either you have absolutely assurance and no amount of apostasy will take it away, or assurance can at best be a moral, not an absolute one.

I do NOT believe that a faith of the heart in Jesus Christ the Son of God who died for the individuals sins can turn out to be a false faith. Only a faith that is in something else can be false. I do believe individuals can say that they have faith in Jesus Christ when they do not.

Yes, I can and do say that I am absolutely certain that I have eternal life and that I will never change my mind about God.
I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn_4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn_5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn_5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

When I trusted Jesus Christ as my Saviour I was spiritually born of God. Because I was born of God I received a new nature: the nature of God my father. Now, just as I cannot flap my arms and fly because I was born of a human father with a human nature, not a bird with a bird nature, having the nature of God there are things that I cannot do.

God cannot sin: the spirit born of God cannot sin.
God cannot stop believing in Jesus: the spirit born of God cannot stop believing in Jesus.

[truthman]

CSLL
When commentators describe salvation as a "process", they are referring to the 3 phases of salvation.
The moment a person trusts Christ as Saviour, he is saved from the penalty of sin.
The rest of life on earth the person experience the process of being saved from the power of sin in his life.
He then waits to be saved fully and finally from the power and presence of sin. (Romans 13:11)

If you deny Him after knowing Him, He can deny you to the Father and say, "I never knew you." It's interesting to think of, the power of our free will.

If you could deny Him after knowing Him, then He could not say "I never knew you". He would have to say, "I knew you for awhile until you stopped believing in me"

Do you know that you HAVE eternal life? If you do, then it cannot end or it is not eternal. If you do not know that you HAVE eternal life, 1 John 5:13 says that you can.

[narnia4]

After thinking about this, sort-of, for a couple of days, I've come to think something that I haven't thought before. It had been really inconceivable to me that someone, after having experienced Christ and having accepted Him, could possibly deny Him later. But I've been thinking of free will. We always have free will. If we decide later, based on our free will, that we don't want to be with God, then God cannot keep us in chains (as it were) and make us be with Him. I think that, because of all the verses in the NT, including some parables and such by Christ Himself, about perseverance, that we can "lose our salvation." I had read in some commentaries about this subject that salvation is a process in the NT, but we have a different mind-set today and have a hard time with this. I very firmly believe that we can have assurance of salvation, but I think this is for the believer - the believer who keeps on believing. As long as we believe, nothing will separate us from Christ. But if we deny Christ after "believing," it would imply that He would have to do His work on the cross over again - which He will not. If you deny Him after knowing Him, He can deny you to the Father and say, "I never knew you." It's interesting to think of, the power of our free will. I don't know what could possibly lead a person to deny Christ after having supposedly accepted Him, but it seems that the possibility exists. But Christ in His great love would never let anyone be snatched away who wants to be with Him. And why would a nonbeliever care about assurance of salvation? It would seem to me that it would be repugnant to them.

That's very close to what I've come to believe as well. A person who believes in Christ will be saved period, a lack of works or a lack of dedicated service not changing that. If a person, using the free will that God gave them, decides they don't believe in Christ anymore (assuming this is possible, and I don't mean just doubts, I mean active disbelief) then I don't know that we can be sure that that person is saved.

Overall I'm still undecided on this and have quite a bit of sympathy for what truthman is saying. What I am very confident in is that those who believe in Christ are saved and works and/or beliefs of secondary importance won't effect that. A person who has accepted Christ but is worries about not praying enough to be saved or doing too many bad things can rest assured that they are saved if they truly accepted Christ. So if you believe in Christ, you can have "absolute assurance".