I'll convert to islam if you can show me.

[seedling]

Nice post, kateliz. The autobiography of Madame Guyon was given to me as a gift about 20 years ago. The passage you chose is interesting. It confirms to me what I was trying to say. I agree that communication between human beings does take many forms, not all of them words. In fact, words just may be the poorest form of communication. The picture of the young boy in handcuffs arrested for trying to take a cup of water to Terri Schiavo communicated something profound to me at the time. Nature communicates to us every day, if we want to listen. Every human being and everything around us "speaks" to us without words every day of our lives, if we are still and aware enough to hear them. It is nothing "spooky" or "divine" or out of the ordinary. Our souls are just very dull, dulled by the onslaught of the clamor of this world and not knowing how to protect ourselves from it.

Madam Guyon describes her communication with Father La Combe as "divine." Just because it was "without words" it is fascinating to people; it is "divine." "God" must be in it somewhere. Human beings can communicate without words with one another. It is done all the time. There are many levels of communicaton. To what level may depend on the awareness of the soul. Madame Guyon states that the others she tried to communicate with could not communicate back to her. Maybe they were at a lesser state of awareness than she, I don't know. I wasn't there. Maybe she didn't understand THEIR wordless language.

"It was in this that we learned, by our own experience, the operations of the heavenly Word to reduce souls into unity with itself, and what purity one may arrive at in this life."

I really like this sentence. All human beings have this "heavenly word" inside of them! God created us ... your bible says His Word created us and apart from this, nothing came into being. Man was created with this ... "Word" inside of us. How could we not be if we were created by "Him"? We are "divine" from the start. But what happens is we are not encouraged to trust it (trust ourselves) and depend on it and learn from it when we are young ... and we are brainwashed and traumatized into accepting whatever culture and religion we are born into, and these beliefs and attitudes are forced onto us, like rape. So begins in adulthood the painful process of "reducing souls into unity with itself" ("itself" being the original Word inside of us from the beginning that we were created with).

You know, someone stated on this board that people can be at many different places in their spiritual walk ... they can be at many different places "inside" of themselves. This changes ... human beings are transient beings ... we grow, change, learn new information that rings a bell inside of us and we continue with this new information and apply it, until it doens't work for us any more. We outgrow it. No one is stagnant ... stagnant water stinks after a while. So basically at this point in my life, what I believe about God can be loosely defined as this ...

He created me. He kicked me out into the wild, crazy jungle (some "Father" huh). With a backpack containing a few supplies. I protested ... "it's dangerous out here! I don't know what I'm doing! I'm scared!" He said ... "Look, I gave you all you needed; you are fully equipped. What you do with it is up to you. I need to leave and I won't be back." And he leaves me there ... completely alone. Seemingly. Just me and my "backpack." When I first open it and look at what he left me with, my heart sinks ... what the heck is this? HOW can I use it? What does it do? But eventually I figure out a few things. And then I meet others who have figured out a few things (communication). And together we "share" (if there is love). And our needs are met. And thus we find humanity all over the globe. Whether we will share in love with each other or not ... may be the continuation of us or the end of us. And no "God" or "Creator" I don't think, will interfere with what we choose. That's how I see it … at least for now!

[Battlehelmet]

Why would you want to convert to Islam?

I am apprehensive about this subject because Islamics and Jihadists are terrorist and kill people.

[Mastermind]

You're a well of good, unbiased, well researched stere... err information, aren't you?

[Battlehelmet]

You could say that...

I don't know everything about Islamic and Jihadist terrist groups but the proof is all over the news in violence. I'm not throwing blanket statement but I presume there are some peaceful Islamics and Jihadists?

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

You have annoyed the almighty Mastermind, run!

And to helmethair, this thread was a challenge to the muslims. The author is well versed in Islam-at least compared to most people...he just wanted to see their best shot I'm assuming. Yes, there are peaceful Muslims...though, are they living according to their holy moley books...don't know.

[Mastermind]

You could say that...

I don't know everything about Islamic and Jihadist terrist groups but the proof is all over the news in violence. I'm not throwing blanket statement but I presume there are some peaceful Islamics and Jihadists?

You bring up terrorists the exact same way atheists bring up the Inquisition. Not only do you make the false assumption that the terrorists do it because God told them to(believe it or not, they actually think THEY are under attack, and who can blame them, considering the US's history), but you think it somehow means their entire religion is the same. There is absolutely no difference between the logic you are using and the logic an atheist uses to attack Christianity, exept the fact that you, being a Christian, should know better than this.

[bizzt]

You have annoyed the almighty Mastermind, run!

And to helmethair, this thread was a challenge to the muslims. The author is well versed in Islam-at least compared to most people...he just wanted to see their best shot I'm assuming. Yes, there are peaceful Muslims...though, are they living according to their holy moley books...don't know.

No wonder why Mastermind gets annoyed with you or anybody for that matter

[LittleShepherd]

A lot of the confusion about what Islam is and what it is not can be clarified by taking a good, honest look at the life of Muhammed, its founder. Islam was very much an "on-the-fly" religious movement, and every new "revelation" given to Muhammed had something to do with his current situation and goals.

You'll note that both the message itself, and the methods used to deliver the message, changed as Muhammed changed locations and grew in power. He was very good at telling the Arab people what they wanted to hear, and as he grew in power he was able to "convert" the peoples in the region who still held out against Islam.

Another thing is that the Quran is full of contradictions. One part tells them to respect the people of the book(scriptures in some translations), and to respect the Bible itself, while other parts call us heretics and say that we should be taxed, persecuted, and even killed, as well as say that they cannot trust the Bible.

These contradictions often arise within the same surah(chapter) because one surah often contains bits and pieces from multiple "revelations" that took places at different points in Muhammed's political career.

Under Muhammed, violence was a part of everyday life, and was even encouraged. Men were not encouraged to do honest work, but rather to raid and pillage their neighbors. Dishonesty was never denounced, but is actually encouraged by the Quran itself, particularly when dealing with unbelievers. Or when it's just convenient(as when Muhammed's wife, Aisha, was accused of adultery, with evidence to back up the claims, and she lied to save her skin).

I have a few books that are particularly eye-opening, particularly in regards to the life of Muhammed and his political agendas. I find it very peculiar that his "revelations" were so...convenient for him.

The books:

Jesus and Muhammad, by Mark. A. Gabriel, PhD -- This book looks at the similarities that many people have pointed out between Jesus and Muhammad, and -- more importantly -- the vast number of dissimilarities in their lives. It covers many issues about their lives, ministries, messages, and deaths. How they described themselves. How they responded to challenges from Jews. The healings and miracles they performed. Guidelines for acceptable prayer. When to fight an enemy. What they taught about women. Etc. Etc. Etc. It turns out that, upon closer inspection, they weren't very similar at all.

Islam and Terrorism, by Mark. A. Gabriel, PhD -- The cover blurb says "What the Quran really teaches about Christianity, violence, and the goals of the Islamic jihad. Some of the topics covered in this book are -- How Muhammad practiced holy war and why it continues today. Why the verses about jihad cancel out the verses about tolerance, causing contradictions in the Quran. What Muslims believe about earning your way into paradise(heaven). Which radical teachings in black market books are being read by the Islamic terrorists of today. Why the United States has become the target of Islamic terrorism. Etc. Etc. Etc.
A quote from chapter 1 of I&T:
"Even the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, practiced his faith in ways that contradicted the Quran. The Quran said Muhammad was sent to show the mercy of God to the world. But he became a military dictator, attacking, killing, and taking plunder to finance his empire. How is that showing mercy?
Allah, the god revealed in the Quran, is not a loving father. It says that he desires to lead people astray(Surah 6:39, 126). He does not help those who are led astray by him(Surah 30:29) and desires to to use them to populate hell(Surah 32:13)."

Unveling Islam, by Ergun and Emir Caner -- This is a more general look at Islam. The culture surrounding it, its various practices and rituals. It speaks on Islam's practices, ethics, and beliefs. It also goes over primary differences between Christianity and Islam. And, of course, practical information that Christians can use to better witness to Muslims.

The above 3 books were written by men who are all Muslim-to-Christian converts, and all of whom hold some type of doctorate. Mark A. Gabriel graduated from the prestigious Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt, which serves as the spiritual authority for Islam worldwide. Ergun and Emir Caner both hold doctorates in theology(I don't recall from which university at the moment).

I hope this helps.

[Battlehelmet]

You bring up terrorists the exact same way atheists bring up the Inquisition. Not only do you make the false assumption that the terrorists do it because God told them to(believe it or not, they actually think THEY are under attack, and who can blame them, considering the US's history), but you think it somehow means their entire religion is the same. There is absolutely no difference between the logic you are using and the logic an atheist uses to attack Christianity, exept the fact that you, being a Christian, should know better than this.

Whoa.

I do realize they are being attacked but what is causing them to be attacked? Why are the news articles plastered all over the news and internet because of what?I wasn't even intending it as an argument in the first place.

[Mastermind]

Whoa.

I do realize they are being attacked but what is causing them to be attacked? Why are the news articles plastered all over the news and internet because of what?I wasn't even intending it as an argument in the first place.

The United States has been shoving its nose into Middle Eastern, Asian and South American internal affiars since WW2. Eventually, people will get fed up with them. They would selll weapons to one side, then to the other as they waged the cold war with russia through their pain and suffering. Eventually, people will get fed up and retaliate. I don't approve of them killing civillians, but the Americans and their allies (Israel is notorious for this) aren't much better. I'm willing to bet the American financed wars(I'm not even talking about afghanistan, kuwait or Iraq which were justified) killed more civillians than 9 11 did by a long shot.

[Battlehelmet]

Then what was the root cause of the 9-11 attacK?

[Mastermind]

Then what was the root cause of the 9-11 attacK?

I don't know. Probably the US giving Israel weapons to kill arabs. I'm not particularly familiar with the cronology of the events that led to this, but I guarantee that people don't crash planes into buildings for no reason. The Qur'ran commands muslims to kill unbelievers(although I admit I might be taking this out of context). Believe it or not, they consider Jews and Christians believers, so they don't count. If their religion was the actual motivation, they'd be crashing plains in China or South Korea(which would be a bit more productive if you ask me).

[LittleShepherd]

Actually, the Quran is very torn on the issue of Jews and Christians. Muhammad's earlier revelations, while he was still powerless and living in Mecca, claim that Jews and Christians were to be respected and all that. His later revelations, formulated after he moved to Medina and amassed military power, calls Jews and Christians deceivers, unbelievers, and infidels just like all other non-Muslims. Muhammad's "ministry" was very two-sided. When he was weak, he told people what they wanted to hear, and when he was strong he told them what he really felt.

Christianity is actually viewed as the single largest threat to Islam by most adherents. The reason they target the US is because to most Muslims, the US is practically synonymous with Christianity. Also, we're big supporters of Israel, and Jews and Arabs have always had a special...relationship. They've never needed any religion to fuel the fires(though Muslims got one once Muhammad amassed enough power to get away with showing his true face).

[Christian2]

Then what was the root cause of the 9-11 attacK?

You and others may be interested in what an American Muslim says on this subject:

http://www.aicongress.org/teachersguide1.html

A clip:

”Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire in the early 20th century, many Muslims have lamented the loss of a unified Muslim polity and longed for the reestablishment of a world empire. Some have organized movements with the imposition of a Muslim world order as their end goal. In recent years, there have been numerous such movements, some but not all adopting a strategy of armed struggle.

Al-Qaeda is one such group. It is a coalition of armed movements espousing a refined form of Wahhabism, a stringent interpretation of Sunni Islamic law that informs the state ideology of Saudi Arabia and until recently Afghanistan. Usama bin Laden and his followers wish to make Islam the only religio-political force in the world.

In practice, this means reclaiming Muslim countries now ruled by secular governments they view as illegitimate, reconquering lost Muslim lands like Israel and Spain, unifying the entire Muslim world under a new caliphate, and ultimately, advancing into new territories and claiming them for Islam. America's position as the only superpower pits it inherently against their ambitions. Thus, weakening America is a fundamental part of their agenda.

Usama and his followers oppose much of America's foreign policy. They oppose America's support for Israel, sanctions against Iraq, military presence in Saudi Arabia, support for India in its rule over the dispute region of Kashmir, and support for Middle Eastern governments like Egypt that have tried to put down Islamist political groups. At the core, Usama and his followers oppose America because it is the only superpower that stands in his way.