Original Sin / Sinners by Birth or Not

[sinnerbybirth]

Here is a reply to a post I made. "You were not born guilty of sin because you hadn't done anything wrong."
I have always been of the understanding that we are all born sinners, that we inherited sin from the fall of man, namely Adam. Well, Its got me thinking about whether or not we are born sinner. I've been searching scripture to see if I can find anything that says otherwise.

What I've come up with so far in favor of being born a sinner:
#1. Romans 3:10-12 says 10. As it is written: None is righteous, no, not one; 11. no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. I have always taken that to mean all people.

#2. Again, in Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. If child or baby dies, I would have to assume they are born sinners.

#3. With that being said, Romans 3:9-12 says 9. What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10. as it is written: None is righteous, no, not one; 11. no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. IMO, Paul seem to be pretty clear on this. Am I missing something?
Also see:
Psalm 51:5 , Psalm 58:3 , Ephesians 2:3 ,

What I've come up with so far against being born a sinner:
#1. Matthew 18:3 "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

#2. Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?

#3. 2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

#4. Luke 8:15 ...these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.


Studying this, I seem to find several explanations:

1. Children have inherited sin at birth thru Adam.
2. Children are born with a sin nature.
3. Children are born sinners.
4. Children are born innocent of sin.

A quote I found to be very poignant is from Wayne Grudem. “….If we think it is unfair for us to be represented by Adam, then we should also think it is unfair for us to be represented by Christ and to have his righteousness imputed to us by God. For the procedure that God used was just the same.

I'm trying to be open minded about this subject. But, unless someone can show me the error of my thinking, I still am of the opinion we are sinners by birth. If I have this wrong, I would like to know. So, can someone shed some light on this subject for me?

Thank You and GOD Bless!

[Kristoffer]

I maintain that infants are innocent of anything that they could possibly be guilty of, also that it is impossible to inherit sins or crimes. No one is born a murderer or a sinner, you become one by doing the deed. I mean actually acting and not just thinking about doing something, sure thinking about doing something wrong isn't very nice but its hardly a crimenal is it?

[smiley]

OT God routinely punished the descendants of those who actually commit the crime. So - in the Bible, it is possible to inherit sin. Or, at least, to receive the punishment for your fathers' sins.

[Kristoffer]

The only way to inherit sinful behaviour would be to be taught it by the parents, rather...making good people do bad things. I find it rather sickening when it says, AND the children and infants got killed. People are capable of Reforming, but in the eldest parts of the bible they are not even given the opportunity.

[BavarianWheels]

I maintain that infants are innocent of anything that they could possibly be guilty of, also that it is impossible to inherit sins or crimes. No one is born a murderer or a sinner, you become one by doing the deed. I mean actually acting and not just thinking about doing something, sure thinking about doing something wrong isn't very nice but its hardly a crimenal is it?

Is being selfish a sin?
.
.

[truthman]

To answer the question first you must know God's definition of sin.

1 John 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Next, are babies under law? Is there any way to communicate law to them and for them to understand it and then choose to break it?

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Then, Paul said he was alive without law at one time. When? It had to have been when he was a baby.

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Then he said that there was a point in time when he received commandment and that it was then that the sin nature in him came to life and he died (spiritually as the consequence of sin).

I know many teach that babies are born guilty of sin, but it doesn't stand up to a thorough study of Scripture. Actually I believe it is a harmful teaching.
The truth is that babies are innocent. How can anyone say they are born guilty sinners?

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Look at this verse carefully. It is not saying that conception is a sin, but that his mother was a sinner when he was conceived which is true for all of us.
It is saying that we are all shaped or formed in iniquity or sin because our parents that we were formed from were sinners. We are formed with a sin nature, but that does not mean that we are guilty of sin until we actually choose to sin.

Some people even go so far as to say babies are liars because they cry when they're not hungry or wet. That is ignorance on the parents part. Babies also need love and sometimes their cry is just their way of saying that they need to be held close and loved. That is not a lie.

[truthman]

The only way to inherit sinful behaviour would be to be taught it by the parents, rather...making good people do bad things. I find it rather sickening when it says, AND the children and infants got killed. People are capable of Reforming, but in the eldest parts of the bible they are not even given the opportunity.

People do inherit their nature from their parents. That can be partly due to the way they are raised, but also partly by their nature.

When a nation or group of people got to where "every imagination of their heart was only evil continually" God in His perfect knowledge and wisdom had to see to it that they were destroyed so they couldn't corrupt all of the people around them.

There is the consolation too that it was an act of mercy on God's part for the children to die. If they were still too young and innocent, then they did not go to hell when they died, but if God had allowed them to live, they would without doubt have sinned and gone to hell.

[Canuckster1127]

Your understanding of human nature is lacking. People do inherit their nature from their parents, and decent people have a far higher percentage of decent children. That can be partly due to the way they are raised, but also partly by their nature. The opposite is also true.

"Decent people?" I thought none of us was righteous, not one?

So, it would be your contention, and would logically follow that children born to "decent people" who are adopted by "not decent people" would then be better than the environment they were raised in because of some inherent genetic tendency to be better than other and vice versa?

Sorry Truthman, I'm hoping I'm misunderstanding what you're suggesting here because it's these type of statements that are applied logically further to race, nationality, socio-economic strata etc. and promotes racism, nationalism, classism etc. and underlies attitudes that affect local churches to see themselves as somehow better and more appealing to God because of "who they are."

"Decent people" in churches who pick up on these types of thinking retreat into the shell of appearances and are less likely to be open and honest about the problems they have as people and families for fear of how they will be judged and perceived and ultimately shunned and pushed out as somehow, not good enough.

I'm sincerely hoping that this is not what you're attempting to say, and if so, that you'll help me better understand what you are trying to say, because, and I'm addressing your statement, not you personally, this is disturbing to me and I'm respectfully calling you on it and asking you to clarify what you do indeed mean by it.

thanks,

bart

[truthman]

Bart,
You are right: decent was not the right word. Sorry. I was grasping for words. I should edit it.
All men are totally depraved.
What I'm trying to say is that in my years of ministry with different groups of people I have observed and also read some observations of others that there are inherited tendencies to certain types of behaviour. For instance I know a man who was adopted as a baby, but grew up to behave like his natural parents whom he did not know, not his adopted parents.
In Bible times the people of Crete had inherited tendencies: Titus 1:12
I'm can't say I fully understand it.

[Canuckster1127]

Cool. THanks for not taking offense and receiving that in the spirit it was meant.

[truthman]

Hey, I'm not really stubborn or easily offended. I can be wrong and don't mind admitting it. I love truth and stand for truth based on God's Word, but everything must be done and said in love.

[Kristoffer]

I do not find the idea that all men are "totally" depraved, very acceptable. Its incredibly pessemistic, next you are going to tell me life would have no meaning or worth without god. Its a fallacy to say it would have no meaning, but the meaning that it would have without god, would be so incredibly amplified by god if we make the presumption that there is.

Its ok to believe something, its just the "I know" that I find agitating. There is one of those "I know" people at the church i've been to in my village it is thouroughly frustrating to talk to them and even when you make them concede that god didn't do something they then say "oh but thats how god did it" it really gets on my nerves to put up with that but i know i myself can be trying at times just in alternate ways.

Anyway do you KNOW that men are "Totally depraved" or is this just a belief you hold?

[truthman]

I do not find the idea that all men are "totally" depraved, very acceptable. Its incredibly pessemistic, next you are going to tell me life would have no meaning or worth without god. Its a fallacy to say it would have no meaning, but the meaning that it would have without god, would be so incredibly amplified by god if we make the presumption that there is.
Its ok to believe something, its just the "I know" that I find agitating. There is one of those "I know" people at the church i've been to in my village it is thouroughly frustrating to talk to them and even when you make them concede that god didn't do something they then say "oh but thats how god did it" it really gets on my nerves to put up with that but i know i myself can be trying at times just in alternate ways.
Anyway do you KNOW that men are "Totally depraved" or is this just a belief you hold?

When we say that men are totally depraved it is a phrase we use to describe what the Bible says about humanity.
We are saying that their best works are not good enough for God.

Isaiah 64:6 ¶ But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

We are not saying that every man is as evil as he could be, or does all the evil he can.

Now, for you personally, the implications are very serious. If you do not choose to put all of your trust in Jesus Christ the Son of God as your personal Saviour who died to pay for your sins and resurrected so you can have the free gift of life, you face the judgment, condemnation, and wrath of God because your good works are not good enough.

As far as meaning in life: meaning has to come from purpose. If man has no purpose, then life has no meaning. I gave the scriptures showing the purpose of life and therefore the meaning in the topic "Why Create?" http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 893#p84893

[Kristoffer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ2rSyPckTU

How's that not good enough for god? Mozart composed it at the young age of 17!

[truthman]

It is without doubt incredibly beautiful. The work of genius as far as men go.
In other words, using what humanity can produce as our standard of measure, it is very high up as far as its beauty.

However, what if you use God as your standard of measure? Our best could be better. Our best is polluted by our corruption and is less than perfect.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Our best may go a long way, but it still falls short of the glory of God.