Purpose of prayer

[jlay]

Vicki,

I thanked BW in one of my post. They are both mods, and are quite capable of letting me know if my post were out of line.

seem to me that you don't understand what I'm saying,

Vicki, because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't understand what you are saying. It is clear that you misunderstood me in regards to my question, "does God even hear the prayer of an unbeliever?" You took this as me limiting God, which as I gave further explanantion that this was most assuredly not the case. If you think I am simply misunderstanding you, then I welcome any additional info you can proivide to bring clarity. My point is that I think it is irresponible to advise someone like Kris to pray in the way that Zoe suggested, and that you also seconded.

I'm taking Jonah in the context of itself

Vicki, I clearly showed you where you didn't take Jonah in context. That the text is clear about belief, and God hearing the Ninevites. Your comments, regarding the Ninevites, implied that God heard unbelievers. The text CLEARLY states that they believed and were heard by God.

What's so hard to understand about what I said? How would Kristoffer, say, understand your meaning? I was getting at how a non-believer or new believer might view it. That's why I said it "can connote."

And yet you are at a loss to understand how a believer might be offended at another believer throwing prayer out there as some sort of spiritual ring toss?????? You lecture me on referring to prayer as sacred because of how Kris might perceive this word. Yet it is perfectly OK to refer to prayer as an 'experiement,' and treat it with what I consider a very flippant response?

To this point I also see it as fruitless, as your replies have become little more than oversites and comments about my style, what you judge to be my motives, and accusations about fight picking. I do not appreciate being accuesed of picking fights, and I would judge your very personal comments about what you view to be my motives much more in this vein than anything I have said. I am more than ready to talk about this matter regarding prayer, and so unless we can get back on that track, I'm moving on.

[zoegirl]

For the record and for clarification if I was unclear, I was not meaning to encourage "experimentation". IF Kris has any true desire to know more, then I don't and still don't see any problem with encouraging him to pray to see God. It was a challenge to HIM, not to God. He has been here for awhile and I was encouraging him to continue seeking answers. If he is serious then he needs to continue and continue earnestly. If he is not, if he is just spouting off, then by all means he shouldn't. Only he and God can measure whether he truly is interested. Shall I repeat that? I am not encouraging arrogant demands to God and I certianly did not mean to. All I meant was a simple "God, I don't know yet what to believe, please help me see you"...if you think this is wrong that show me in scripture.

Of course God is not a magician to do our bidding. He will not bow to our flippant desires, nor perform like a circus pony to prove Himself. If I was unclear in that then let this clarify things. I don't view prayer as some sort of litmus test for the unbeliever to test God. However, if he is truly interested at any level, if he truly wants to know, then he should continue to ask God for answers. A person who struggles with doubt but who has even some level of interest and desire to know, why are we so willing to close off communication? Does God not hear this type of inquiry?

We must not limit God is what He can or wants to do. Only God can judge the heart completely and judge the pride and arrogance and rejection in that heart. My telling someone that they should continue to look for answers and seek HIm is hardly grounds for discord. (And again, let me clarify that I never meant to flippantly or arrogantly experiment with prayer as if it were some sort of incantation to reveal God.) Was Saul actively looking for Christ? Was Saul not proud and arrogant? Yet God revealed Himself to Him. Thomas doubted and demanded physical proof and Christ supplied, even in the midst of his doubt. Did Thomas believe when he demanded proof? Sounds like he hadn't yet and yet Christ heard him. I don't know what is deep in Kris's heart. Right now I hear interest and lots of petulance. Is God calling Him? Perhaps....I don't know. And right now I will do my best to water the seed and I make no apologies for that!! You may think I am wasting my time. I don't know that right now and I am not convinced. You may be, I am not.

I understand that prayer is special and sacred but ultimately it is the starting point of the relationship.

So are we clear? I am not for experimentation, especially when the person has not intention or motivation to get the answers. If I was unclear, then I apologize.

[jlay]

We must not limit God is what He can or wants to do. Only God can judge the heart completely and judge the pride and arrogance and rejection in that heart. My telling someone that they should continue to look for answers and seek HIm is hardly grounds for discord

Zoe, Thanks for your feedback. Really appreciate your honest candid reply. Absolutely agree. And I hope you understand that my comments are not intended to limit God, but to respect the limitations and boundaries God sets, as revealed in the scripture. Not only should we tell them to look for answers. We should help them find them. We should warn them if they are on the wrong path. We should rebuke them if they are stubborn and hard hearted. And we must be ready to offer grace, when they come to a posture of seeking. Remember those who seek WILL find. FWIW, I'm not convinced that Kris is anywhere near seeking at this point. He may be curious about certain matters.

Zoe, I don't think there is any doubt as to your sincerity and desiring Kris or any other non-believer to come to the saving knowledge of Christ. And I share that with you. One on one evangelism is one of those areas where I've had a lot of experience. Not on the internet, but face to face. I've dealt with some folks who are extremely hostile towards these matters, and have often seen amazing results, praise be to God.

You may think I am wasting my time.

Our methods are usually determined by the audience. It is wasteful to offer precious things to those who are antagonistic. (I would consider, as I see you do, prayer to be one of those precious things.) That doesn't mean we shouldn't spend time on them. We just need to ensure that how and what we communicate is appropriate. Humility should always be met with grace. Hostility should be met with stern truth.

[zoegirl]

Kristoffer,

If there are other questions about prayer that you would like answered, this would be the time to do so.

[Gabrielman]

Kristoffer I want to say something in here, so I hope you don't mind me just jumping in. God loves you more than you can imagine my friend. He wants a personal relationship with you, and He wants to spend eternity with you. I know you keep saying things on here like "I would prefer what I deserve." or something along those lines. But let me tell you this, God doesn't want you to be in the fate that you would deserve. Being cold and alone and empty, that is not what He wants for you, but that is what we deserve. Utter separation from Him and His amazing presence. What God wants for you, is for you to be in heaven with Him. However this cannot happen because of sin. With sin in our lives we cannot enter the presence of a perfect and sinless God. So He offers us a way to be clean. We have to admit we are sinners, and accept Jesus into our hearts and accept what He did for us on the cross, and be washed clean. Now there is more to it than that, but that is the first step to a relationship with Christ. Once you take that step, and start a relationship with Him, you will be happier, you will be free, you will be clean, and it will help you understand things better too. Kristoffer, we love you, believe it or not, and God loves you too with all of His heart. I want you to pray, I want you to ask Him into your life. It is not just what God wants, because I want it for you too, I want to be able to call you brother in the body of Christ. Please keep seeking after the Lord and do not be discouraged. I will keep you in my prayers friend.

God Bless You

[zoegirl]

[One of Many]

Well Said Gabrielman!!

[sinnerbybirth]

True words of wisdom Gab. Nice post brother.

[cslewislover]

Awwws, how nice! @Gab and his responders. Maybe Kris would like a group hug! But then, maybe he'd just run away . . .

[sinnerbybirth]

Awwws, how nice! @Gab and his responders. Maybe Kris would like a group hug! But then, maybe he'd just run away . . .

LOL. Would that be considered charismatic?

[jlay]

Once you take that step, and start a relationship with Him, you will be happier, you will be free, you will be clean, and it will help you understand things better too.

The point of coming to Christ should never be life improvement or life enhancement. Is it correct to tell a person they will be happier if they come to Christ? Sure, they will be better off.(eternally) But there are times where it will be very difficult to see that. In fact, their life on this earth may suffer because of their faith.


Are these folks happy?

I don't think anyone in Kris's current state could view a 'relationship' with God as anything to be desired. I see it as casting pearls where they don't belong. Kris needs to see God correctly, in all His holiness and majesty. He reveres the creation, and mocks the creator. He scoffs at Hell as some sort of basement in God's house, where he gets kicks out of torturing good people. Why on earth would Kris ever understand a relationship? Kris doesn't need warm fuzzies. He doesn't think he is a sinner. He thinks he is a good person. He needs cold hard truth. He needs to see that He has sown nothing in this life that will offer him anything but an eternity of Hell. He needs to see that the incredible nature of the God who formed the cosmos he is so enamoured with, is infinately above our ways. That his life stands in opposition to everything God created him for. Kris, you need Christ. You need to lay aside your pride, stubborness and rebellion and get real with your condition. Yes, God loves you. He loves you too much to identify with the state you are in now. You are at enmity with God. Step into the light and see for yourself. Do you know what Kris will get if he continues with pride and stubborness? God will hand him over to it. He'll give him exactly what he wants. If he wants to mock and ignore, God will comply.

[cslewislover]

Awwws, how nice! @Gab and his responders. Maybe Kris would like a group hug! But then, maybe he'd just run away . . .

LOL. Would that be considered charismatic?

Well, not unless we all started speaking in French and dancing around like the Rockettes.

[cslewislover]

Once you take that step, and start a relationship with Him, you will be happier, you will be free, you will be clean, and it will help you understand things better too.

The point of coming to Christ should never be life improvement or life enhancement. Is it correct to tell a person they will be happier if they come to Christ? Sure, they will be better off.(eternally) But there are times where it will be very difficult to see that. In fact, their life on this earth may suffer because of their faith.

Gab wasn't talking about worldly happiness and it's odd you assume that he was. You consistently misinterpret what people write, and then tell them they're wrong and then make an issue of it. You've done it with me a number of times. Please try and read the posts with the eyes of a fellow believer.

Are these folks happy?

I didn't know the Romans had surface to air missiles!

I don't think anyone in Kris's current state could view a 'relationship' with God as anything to be desired. I see it as casting pearls where they don't belong. Kris needs to see God correctly, in all His holiness and majesty. He reveres the creation, and mocks the creator. He scoffs at Hell as some sort of basement in God's house, where he gets kicks out of torturing good people. Why on earth would Kris ever understand a relationship? Kris doesn't need warm fuzzies. He doesn't think he is a sinner. He thinks he is a good person. He needs cold hard truth. He needs to see that He has sown nothing in this life that will offer him anything but an eternity of Hell. He needs to see that the incredible nature of the God who formed the cosmos he is so enamoured with, is infinately above our ways. That his life stands in opposition to everything God created him for. Kris, you need Christ. You need to lay aside your pride, stubborness and rebellion and get real with your condition. Yes, God loves you. He loves you too much to identify with the state you are in now. You are at enmity with God. Step into the light and see for yourself. Do you know what Kris will get if he continues with pride and stubborness? God will hand him over to it. He'll give him exactly what he wants. If he wants to mock and ignore, God will comply.

It's perfectly fine to have your opinion as to Kris's readiness for Christ. But it's good to respect others' view of where he's at too. As one of my pastor's used to say, it's better to err on the side of love. Personally, I don't see how pushing him away will bring him closer to Christ. We have been telling him truth, and it seems obvious to me that God is calling him. God has worked in his life, and Kris even came here to get help, seemingly by God's prodding. There are a number of things I'd like to discuss with Kris that I haven't yet, about some of the things he's put in some recent posts. But I'll talk with him about them, not you. Anyway, if God is working on him, then we aren't throwing pearls before swine. The things we say to Kris now hopefully are helping him, but he may not come to Christ for a while. Who knows? In any case, there have been plenty of people who view God as Kris does now, and then God comes in, and they are completely changed (their spiritual eyes are opened); people need God's help to do it. God doesn't want people to come to him out of fear, either. I wouldn't want to marry someone who married me simply because they were afraid they would never marry, I'd want them to love me, of course! Hell is real and it shouldn't be ignored, but there's nothing wrong with people encouraging him here with love and not just saying that he needs to make the decision now, or never, to stay out of hell. If God has been calling Him, He'll keep him, and won't mock and ignore him and leave him to the world. That's the way it seems to me.

[Gabrielman]

jlay CSLL is right. You took what I said in the opposite direction, and are trying to make an issue out of it. If you disagree with me, that is fine, we disagree. Our goal here should not be to argue though, it should be to help those without Christ. I do not appreciate how to picked out something I said and made it out to be what it is not. Brother, I meant every word of what I said to Kristoffer, and I stand by it.

Kristoffer, please do not be discouraged. Listen to what God is saying to you and seek Him with your heart fully. I eagerly await the day where I may call you brother and count you amongst the body of Christ with us. I know the Lord is working on your heart, and when you do come to Him I know you will rejoice and find peace and understanding. Your spiritual eyes will open, and you will see clearly for the first time, the love of the Lord and what He did for us all on that cross.
After The World Kristoffer, this is a song that I have been moved by. I want you to listen to it. It is a song sung by Disciple as though from the stand point of the Lord. I hope it helps you, and I hope that you never give up your search for the Lord. He has always loved you and He will love you for now and forever.

God Bless You, and may you stand with us in His love forever,
Nathaniel

[jlay]

Gab wasn't talking about worldly happiness and it's odd you assume that he was. You consistently misinterpret what people write, and then tell them they're wrong and then make an issue of it. You've done it with me a number of times. Please try and read the posts with the eyes of a fellow believer.

Vicki,
If I recall, you mentioned something to me about my use of the word sacred. Why would Kris think that the word happiness is being used in any other manner? Further, I don't recall happiness being used in any context as such in the scripture. Telling Kris he will be happier in heaven than in Hell? Still doesn't cut it.
Gabe, this isn't meant as any attack. I truly do understand the sincerity in your post, and desire for Kris to be saved. We are totally on the same page there. I respect that you stand by what you say. As do I. I don't have any problem with your heart. You apparently have a great one. I hope Kris sees that. My fear is that he will only mock your transparency.

I actually had something in my original post about looking out for how much criticism this would bring my way, but I took it out, hoping we could handle a counter view to friendship evangelism. I knew my post would come at a cost, and with little agreement. I'm cool with that.