Being saved from what? For what?

[zoegirl]

If Hell is real, then warning you would be a most appropriate response.

I suppose so, but that is a very, very big IF. What do you consider the odds are if we were to bet on this? How do you say "you are going to hell for what you have done" without it sounding threatening? (also I would love to hear someone say this to my face and see what happens)

Kris,

Ultimately Hell means separation from God. How this manifests itself to me is beside the point. To not have the most incredible relationship with my creator would be hell. To have communion with the creator of the universe? To have the properly restored relationship with GOd? Now you may not believe those things (yet) but that is what we have and believe. Imagine the best relationship you can think of or have had and that is but a dim resemblance of what Christ offers. Now imagine not having that relationship. not having that communion...think back over a break up or a loss of a relationship and that is also but a dim resemblance of the loss we would have in hell.

Anyway, I think that sure warn people about a possible danger. But be vary gentle and considerate. Take into account that Hell could just mean Oblivion and not eternal torture.(The big question here would be, is not believing in God a crime great enough for this? What if the most righteous person apart from this fact died, would they be deserving of that punishment?)

It is the heart in rebellion to God that means that we are given what we ask for! Think of it this way Kris. IF someone does not believe in God and rejects Him, then hell is simply what that person is asking for. Hell is simply the result of what we want if we declare "there is no God".

Why just Gift a Reward, rewards should be earned. How is religion not a sport?(you could also ask the opposite question) It just seems competitive and I have quite a bit of "Competiting" already.

I agree with Jlay here, Kris...these seem a bit....strange. However I will answer the rewards question. In our state of rebellion the right consequence is what we ask for, separation from God...spiritual and physical separation. That is the JUST consequence. The gift of Christ is not a reward not earned for we cannot ever earn it!! We can never earn our righteousness. (and we can debate that but lets clarify the rewards for now). SO it is a gift born from the grace of God, grace that gave of Christ, who took upon the wrath that we deserve and gave us His righteousness. It is not something we could ever earn ourselves!! That is the MERCY found in Christ.

Maybe I am not understanding you point, but how in the world is it competitive?

[Kristoffer]

Hell is simply the result of what we want if we declare "there is no God"

A penal colony on jupiter is simply the result of threatening people with never ending punishment for such little things as not believing in the best invisible friend.

I am on the fence, but i am very ready to leap down onto the side that feels right for me and you are making it a load easy for me, thanks.

[narnia4]

Hell is simply the result of what we want if we declare "there is no God"

A penal colony on jupiter is simply the result of threatening people with never ending punishment for such little things as not believing in the best invisible friend.

I am on the fence, but i am very ready to leap down onto the side that feels right for me and you are making it a load easy for me, thanks.

I'm not trying to call anyone out or anything, but I see several people here talking to you, debating, and trying to explain things, and some of your responses... let's just say they don't make a lot of sense. Randomly talking about a penal colony on Jupiter doesn't relate to the discussion at all and I don't see how it works as an allusion or metaphor. At least for me, it would be easier if you just spelled out what your issue was with the point. If you really are "on the fence", don't you want to TRY to understand AND have the people who are trying to help you understand your points? Frankly, I just don't get some of your responses here, I can't tell if they're serious or jokes, whether they're sincere or insincere.

Sometimes atheists (and other people too, of course) have this sense of self-importance, as if what they believe puts them into a category all of their own. No, it's GOD who saves people from their own sin, no matter what they labeled themselves beforehand. Hell is the "natural consequence" of not accepting that gift, and the "punishment" part of hell is separation from God. There are examples (several of them Biblical) that work far better than your "penal colony of Jupiter" one. Take being invited to a banquet. You have limited time to join the party (like your lifetime), and if you don't come the doors will be closed and you'll be left outside in the darkness by your OWN doing. It will matter very little what your reason for doing so was. It won't matter if you thought there was no party, or you thought there was a better party somewhere else, or you decided that the invitation gave the wrong address. The facts will still be the same- you were given an invitation (probably multiple invitations) to the banquet, and you decided not to come.

[Kristoffer]

I really shouldn't log on to websites while drinking ridiculous amounts of spirits. Also I nearly set the house on fire

Anyway as I said before, if eternal separation means Oblivion then I find that morally acceptable, but if it means everlasting fire, being proded in the ass by demons then wowee, that is a massive threat. So be very clear when you are using the word Hell, are you talking about Everlasting fires or are you talking about Becoming nothing.

There are examples (several of them Biblical) that work far better than your "penal colony of Jupiter" one

Actually the point of a penal colony on jupiter is that it is a blatant lie and doesn't exist.

[smiley]

Don't get fooled by this "separation from God" flowery language. In the words of Ray Bradley, they make it sound like God is sending sinners to Hawaii. No, it's a place where you are tormented day and night for the whole eternity.

Of course, they will tell you that these descriptions are "metaphorical"--but that's just an excuse to make Hell sound lighter.

Furthermore, it is foolish to say that people who choose not to be Christians are "getting what they want" by being sent to Hell. No, if Christianity is true, then millions of people will end up there for no other reason than lacking sufficient information to believe that the Christian God, Hell, and "sin" really existed--and possibly be deceived into thinking Allah or some other god was real by being born in the "wrong" period in history or in the "wrong" culture. And, sadly, many of these people have no doubt, been much more moral than you, me, or any other member of this forum.

[TallMan]

... Are we being saved from Hell (the firery pit) so that we can go to Heaven and be disembodied spirts, or are we going to inherit the "New Earth" and go back to a garden of eden so to speak.

"Saved" and "salvation" are cliches when not explained.
The mman in the street, who is the main concern of Christains takling "the great commission seriously needs an answer!

Many people's first encounter with an evangelist is "turn or burn", which seems pretty ineffective, and indeed the bible says it is the goodness of God that leads man to repentance (Romans 2:4), the Law, which was about punishment "made nothing perfect".

Here is some text from a leaflet I use, feel free to suggest improvements or alternatives:

What is salvation?
Many people cannot find the love, answers and purpose they need to be truly happy.
God says he will be a Father to us and give these things, but says we are alienated from
him and we need to be saved from this situation.
He offers to share his Life so that instead of being controlled by our changing opinions
and feelings, we experience his nature in increasing amounts.
Life becomes truly good and gets better.

* * * * *

P.S. Heaven for those that make it includesn ruling over cities on a renewed Earth in the Millenium in redeemed bodies

2 Cor. 5:4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

[narnia4]

I really shouldn't log on to websites while drinking ridiculous amounts of spirits. Also I nearly set the house on fire

Anyway as I said before, if eternal separation means Oblivion then I find that morally acceptable, but if it means everlasting fire, being proded in the *** by demons then wowee, that is a massive threat. So be very clear when you are using the word Hell, are you talking about Everlasting fires or are you talking about Becoming nothing.

For one thing, you have to understand that there are different interpretations of this among Christians. There are Christians who believe that everyone eventually will be saved and nobody will be spending eternity in hell. Now I don't believe that this is Biblical, but I'm just pointing out that if you're looking for THE answer to this particular question, the opinion of individual Christians can help but Scripture is generally more helpful.

Actually the point of a penal colony on jupiter is that it is a blatant lie and doesn't exist.

I still don't see how that relates to the actual discussion... but I guess I should be used to THAT by now.


And finally, nobody said hell is pleasant or good or like a trip to Hawaii. We can't comprehend how awful it will really be. But we talk about hell being "eternal separation from God" because that really IS the bad part about it.

[Kurieuo]

Don't get fooled by this "separation from God" flowery language. In the words of Ray Bradley, they make it sound like God is sending sinners to Hawaii. No, it's a place where you are tormented day and night for the whole eternity.

Smiley, I presume you are referring to posts such as my last one here? Seems strange you are referencing an ardent Atheist. He must be a great authority on Christian theology! I wonder what your own purpose is in quoting him.

Nonetheless, I agree it is a place where many will be tormented day and night, in particular by their decisions in life, feelings towards God and others and resulting circumstance.

Of course, they will tell you that these descriptions are "metaphorical"--but that's just an excuse to make Hell sound lighter.

Seems like a bit of a contradiction mixing "eternal fire" with "outer darkness". Perhaps you could explain what Hell is literally like? Or maybe you'd prefer to call it a contradiction?

Finally, please read the board purpose and who this board is intended for. Thanks.

[zoegirl]

Don't get fooled by this "separation from God" flowery language. In the words of Ray Bradley, they make it sound like God is sending sinners to Hawaii. No, it's a place where you are tormented day and night for the whole eternity.

I'm in no way making Hell sound flowery. If separation from God isn't the ultimate torture, then one hasn't really given thought to it. A good example: the crucifixion was painful and horrible but that pain and excruciating experience pales in comparison to the agony Christ experienced when separated from God His father...."My God, My God, why have you forsaken me".

I'm not meaning to diminish Hell. It will be...Hell. It is not a metaphor, there will be torture, there will be pain. It is not oblivion.

Of course, they will tell you that these descriptions are "metaphorical"--but that's just an excuse to make Hell sound lighter.

Furthermore, it is foolish to say that people who choose not to be Christians are "getting what they want" by being sent to Hell. No, if Christianity is true, then millions of people will end up there for no other reason than lacking sufficient information to believe that the Christian God, Hell, and "sin" really existed--and possibly be deceived into thinking Allah or some other god was real by being born in the "wrong" period in history or in the "wrong" culture. And, sadly, many of these people have no doubt, been much more moral than you, me, or any other member of this forum.

Smiley, I don't dismiss the importance of witnessing and testifying and making people aware of Christianity. But the important thing to realize is that all men are without excuse. I don't know ultimately what will happen to those who have never heard specifically of Jesus. I am not prepared to say that they will be sent to Hell for not having heard. But it is clear that those who reject God will get what they want. And for those who have been exposed (like Kris and other atheists) hell is exactly what they want....to reject God, to be separated from Him.

I am on the fence, but i am very ready to leap down onto the side that feels right for me and you are making it a load easy for me, thanks.

If that is all it takes for you to decide then you are certainly not devoting much thought to the discussion!

[smiley]

Seems like a bit of a contradiction mixing "eternal fire" with "outer darkness".

There is only one instance, I think, where the afterlife is described as "outer darkness" (in the Gospel of Matthew) and I would argue that it does not refer to Hell. On the other hand, it's very consistent with "fire" and "torture" descriptions.

In any case, even if it does refer to Hell, the presence of fire does not always mean that there is no darkness. It could be a dark place with a lot of fire in it.

Finally, please read the board purpose and who this board is intended for. Thanks.

I've read it a long time ago. What did I do wrong?

It seems that every time the popular opinion is challenged, people assume I am some kind of militant atheist jerk who came here to insult Christians. No, if you are interested in my religious beliefs, check my profile. I think I fit perfectly with the board's purposes. I apologize if I insulted anyone, it was not my intent.

Smiley, I don't dismiss the importance of witnessing and testifying and making people aware of Christianity. But the important thing to realize is that all men are without excuse. I don't know ultimately what will happen to those who have never heard specifically of Jesus. I am not prepared to say that they will be sent to Hell for not having heard. But it is clear that those who reject God will get what they want. And for those who have been exposed (like Kris and other atheists) hell is exactly what they want....to reject God, to be separated from Him.

And yet, it's not just atheists who get "exposed". It's the people who simply happened to believe in the wrong god by the misfortune of being born on the wrong continent at the wrong time. Even if they heard the name "Jesus Christ" at some point in their lives, it's downright silly to say that not believing means that you "get what you want" by being thrown into the Lake of Fire. I am not merely talking about those who have not heard, but those who did not possess sufficient information to believe, and there'll be a lot of those if Christianity is true.

[jlay]

It's pretty obvious Kris has a distorted view of God, of Hell and a number of other things regarding the scriptures. I have a feeling if he gave as critical a look at his own beliefs, as he does our beliefs, he might make some progress. Kris has readily accepted the 'world's' view on God and Hell. He seems most unwilling to critically look back and see how these views were shaped in his own life.

It is unlikely that Kris will ever come to Christ until he abandons this sillyness, stubborness, and is willing to bring his life under the light of the scriptures. A good example. Kris went off on some thing about how passionate he was about space travel. He sees space and the exploration of it, and is in awe. The problem. he worships the creation and denies the creator. Imagine observing a beautiful work of art, and then refusing to give credit to the artist who created it. It is outright insulting.

I'm afraid we are wasting our breath trying to justify a most real hell to a person who will not critically examine their own beliefs and worldview. Until then, Hell wil always be some distorted torture chamber in his mind. Afterall, he's a good little person. It's obvious Kris responds only to what he can come up with a snarky response to. And ignores the sincere answers he has been provided.

[smiley]

Until then, Hell wil always be some distorted torture chamber in his mind.

And is that not what the Bible teaches?

"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever"

I, personally, cannot remain intellectually honest and refer to Hell as mere "separation from God" with passages like this. It's bad exegesis to simply dismiss them as metaphorical.

[zoegirl]

Let's not talk about people as if they are not in the room. It does nothing to contribute to the discussion.

[B. W.]

+
+
Whoops - posted a quote from wrong person so re-edited this post...

Being a former atheist, like Kris, I would pick fights and create tension and strife between Christians . — Not sure if — you — Kris — are doing this but if you are, please take the time to listen and learn. We let people come on and say what they may and try to help people come into understanding but sometimes, people come on with other motives.

That's what happened to me way back when - various Christian people putting up with me, talking back to me, sometimes harshly, but I learned and heard what God was trying to say to me through it all. Looking back, I appreciate all that was said to me the; all the bad, the good, the harsh, the not so harsh, and look forward to the day when I meet these fine folk in heaven.

I had one bible college student, now pastor, come over to my home and played these war Avalon Hill Games with me when I was 17-18 years old (he's a year older than I) while I drank and swore tried my best to trip him up — he still out-talked theology against any and all my objections. He took the time to put up with me and from that, I learned.

So Kris — please learn from all of us. And to the rest of you, try to understand what we do here.

We often get over the top and several members are offended by other member's comments. Like my dad always said — brothers and sisters fight often before they learn to love each other. Love — agape — has the connotation of nature, cherishing, fostering, etc — and that takes patience. May we all learn a bit more about this in our interactions with each other,

Also keep in mind, we may appear to ignore one person over another but this is not the case. We deal with a wide array of people and some we know who are mature, we do not always acknowledge as we should due to the nature of our time we have to volunteer here.

As we write, there is no body language to help us hear intonation of voice and see body movements. So someone may come across harsh or mean spirited but they are really not. The smileys cannot replace body language — so as we all write, take a step back and read how you may sound and change the tone.

Tempers do flare; people's feelings do get hurt, so keep that in mind as well.


Now back to Kris and comments made about eternal punishment etc..

So Kris, the Lord brought your beloved cat back and he been busy been answering you. Maybe he is telling you your mind is getting in the way, like it is now ( I was told that once too), not sure if you are the 11'th doc chap on here a while back or not but you sound like him. Several of us have been pretty decent to you — so be decent in return…

Jesus spoke more about the reality of Hell than Heaven — so as one Christian told me years ago, when an ornery atheist — 'Jesus' words on the matter are good enough to bank on…'

If you like, please re-read the old threads on this subject, much has been answered there concerning the doctrine of hell and the reason for it. Others can answer their own way if they like. I'll be on and off line for a few days as I have other pressing issues at hand that need my attention.

So everyone, take a deep breath so that the coolness of God's Spirit prevails.
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[Kurieuo]

It seems that every time the popular opinion is challenged, people assume I am some kind of militant atheist jerk who came here to insult Christians. No, if you are interested in my religious beliefs, check my profile. I think I fit perfectly with the board's purposes. I apologize if I insulted anyone, it was not my intent.

Whether you ultimately have some anti-Christian agenda remains to be seen. It usually becomes quite obvious over time, so you have nothing to fear if you truly are a Christian. And it is far better a person is just honest. We don't stop people posting just for being non-Christian, but more rather if we believe they have an anti-Christian agenda.

This was my first experience and I felt your words betrayed your profile. Whether this board is for posters like yourself is a hard task moderators are forced to decide on. We don't go by what people assume in their profiles, but have to make determinations based on the substance of posts.