what do you think of gays? [poll]

[Gman]

Do we really need to go back to basics of Christianity and explain why sin is in everyone?
It's the "gene" that Adam and Eve passed on to their offspring.
It's that thing that makes sure each and every person after Adam and Eve is sinful from conception...

"Are we clear?"

"Yes."

"Are we clear!"

"Crystal."

Again you are confused... Genes don't sin... PEOPLE do. Our physical bodies are just what they are. They are just bodies. They are not sinful bodies.. We on the other hand, our souls, are sinful when we choose to live outside God. If our physical bodies are sinful, then how can Christ redeem genetics without removing them?

"Are we clear?"

"Yes."

"Are we clear!"

"Crystal."

No! The point is not that homosexuals are "excused" from the sin of homosexual acts at all. The point is that homosexual acts are sin LIKE ANY OTHER SIN. There is nothing that makes homosexual sins WORSE than heterosexual perversity! There is no more "sin" in BEING homosexual, that is, BEING homosexual doesn't make a person a worse sinner! It's the ACTS, not his/her STATE OF BEING that is "more" detestable to God. We ALL are already detestable equally in God's sight.

Of course it's the acts... Again, who is saying they aren't? Also you are the one saying it's the STATE OF BEING that is "more" detestable to God by their genetics.. Not me. You are saying that their genetic makeup is sinful..

Get it now?

Once again answer the question;

Can a heterosexual Christian with sexual perversion tendencies/issues/problems truly be a Christian and thus be saved?
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Ultimately that is for God to judge.. But yes, God forgives.. The question is however, do we keep sinning? And if we do, are we saved or is it just wishful thinking?

[J.Davis]

Really? Preaching against homosexuality is a Given considering the Christian doctrine. Any pastor that doesn't isn't much of a pastor. I've heard it preached several times in my own church since I was a kid and probably within the last 6 months. I don't see anyone knocking on the doors of my pastor looking to force him to change this.

Yes, preaching against homosexuality is a given considering the Christian doctrine. That is part of what I have been saying this whole time. And you only say your pastor has not been sued. That does not mean others have not or will not get sued.

How is homosexuality being "taught"?? Are you serious? You can't "teach" someone to be homosexual. The most you can "teach" is to treat everyone with respect, including the homosexual...in both civil and religious respects.

You are just playing with words at this point...Homosexuals want schools to teach children that homosexual relationships are normal/natural/acceptable etc. But there is nothing normal, natural or acceptable about it...(also nothing new from what I have already said)...It's a sin!!! Plain and simple. So as far as I'm concerned, kids should not be taught that it is appropriate in anyway what so ever. And yes, children should be taught to respect people. But we are not talking about respecting people. We are talking about brainwashing kids into believing that sins (homosexuality in this case) can be a good thing sometime.

This is silly. Your reasoning here goes the same for plain sin handed down from Adam. To confess one is a sinner is to have sinned. What is the difference? To confess one is homosexual is to either, 1. Know it in your heart where your attractions are at an early age, or 2. experienced physical homosexuality and felt it as YOUR OWN "natural attraction."

No, it is not silly and I said no such thing. And your explanation is only from the perspective of someone who believes a person can be born gay. Ok, first I already said that I agree with the logic that a heterosexual that feels unnatural affection but has no intention to engage in homosexual acts is not committing a homosexual sin. That it pretty clear but you choose to not understand it. My second point is that if a heterosexual accepts that he is gay then he has given into his desires and is no longer fighting so some kind of sin happened or else why would he call himself gay. I understand what you are saying but for that to be true you would have to believe that people can be born gay, and I don't.

You say homosexuals are born homosexual and that it's ok to feel unnatural affection, have gay unions, and be a Christian as long as you don't engage in homosexual acts.

Like the rest of your replies to my last post (not your last statement)) it's all pointless logic. And your last statement is largely a complete contradiction to Gods word. People who call themselves Christians should not support any sin, on any level, in any way what so ever...period. The bible says that people who engaged in homosexual acts gave up natural relations with women or men. Meaning that they used to have what was natural. Not that they were born with unnatural affection. So, because you say you are a Christian....you are WRONG, stop it. The unsaved seek the truth here. If you were unsaved I would respect your response but that is not the case.

But hey, you're still cool

[J.Davis]

Can a Christian that practices homosexuality until they die make it into heaven???

This is what I think...First, I don't believe for one second that gay people (if that's what they want to call themselves) intend to have a relationship or live together and never engage in homosexual activities, they would just be fooling themselves thinking that. The bible says the homosexuals were consumed with passion for each other.

If homosexuals or anyone with a weakness wants to be free of there sin then they have to do whatever it takes. The more a person plays with sin the more addicted they become and the harder it is for them to stop. They need to acknowledge that they have a problem, stay away from people that make them weak, leave environments filled with memories and temptation, have no intentions of sinning, say in their heart that it's over, pray and fight like crazy. And if they mess up, the most important thing to do is to go to God and talk to him, no matter how difficult it becomes, Christians should always force themselves to go to God, regardless of what they think he feels, go to him every single time. He is not like us, he never holds a grudge, we do that to ourselves.

We act like children that got hurt after playing with something we were told not to play with. And then we hide our wound so we don't get in trouble. But all the parent wants is for the child to come to them so they can make it better. What parent holds a grudge against their child? And isn't God greater than any parent? To God we will always be children, our actions are not a surprise to him.

And Christians have to forgive themselves and let go. God say to forgive and that means we have to forgive ourselves too. Christians that are addicted to a sin should give themselves credit for the amount of time they resisted, be proud and focus on what you accomplished not your failure. Retrain your mind with Gods words and meditate on him. Find scriptures that apply to your situation and say them over and over until they are real to you. Do not look back, don't lie to yourself and never give up. Be sincere and put forth your best effort. I know that God knows the heart, if we are sincere then he will respond and forgive and we should feel secure and know that we are Gods child forever. I think what is true in our hearts matters to God and we all know when we are just fooling ourselves and not really giving it our best effort.

[BavarianWheels]

Again you are confused... Genes don't sin... PEOPLE do. Our physical bodies are just what they are. They are just bodies. They are not sinful bodies.. We on the other hand, our souls, are sinful when we choose to live outside God. If our physical bodies are sinful, then how can Christ redeem genetics without removing them?

Genes don't sin. I think we agree on that. Redeem genetics? What are you talking about?

Of course it's the acts... Again, who is saying they aren't? Also you are the one saying it's the STATE OF BEING that is "more" detestable to God by their genetics.. Not me. You are saying that their genetic makeup is sinful..

Get it now?

No. May I ask politely that you not change my words to that which you think/hope I'm saying to substanciate your stance.
Now re-read the statement and please read more carefully this time. I've even helped you with some bolding.

No! The point is not that homosexuals are "excused" from the sin of homosexual acts at all. The point is that homosexual acts are sin LIKE ANY OTHER SIN. There is nothing that makes homosexual sins WORSE than heterosexual perversity! There is no more "sin" in BEING homosexual, that is, BEING homosexual doesn't make a person a worse sinner! It's the ACTS, not his/her STATE OF BEING that is "more" detestable to God. We ALL are already detestable equally in God's sight.

Do YOU get it now?

You are saying that their genetic makeup is sinful."

Not really. I'm saying EVERYONE's genetic makeup since Adam is sinful. All I'm saying about genetics and homosexuality is that sin has corrupted so much that even our physical genetics have been tainted and natural is no longer natural but now "natural" is relative, dictated by genes. Does this remove God's curse on homosexual acts? Not at all. The acts are still contrary to God and the acts remain detestable in His sight.

Once again answer the question;

Can a heterosexual Christian with sexual perversion tendencies/issues/problems truly be a Christian and thus be saved?

Ultimately that is for God to judge.. But yes, God forgives.. The question is however, do we keep sinning? And if we do, are we saved or is it just wishful thinking?

Is what you're saying that when we come to Christ we stop sinning? Have you stopped sinning? There is not one sin that keeps coming back into your life? If you sin, it's never the same sin twice? Amazing!

So out of one side of your mouth you say, "God forgives..." and out of the other you say if we keep sinning our salvation is wishful thinking?
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[BavarianWheels]

And if they mess up, the most important thing to do is to go to God and talk to him, no matter how difficult it becomes, Christians should always force themselves to go to God, regardless of what they think he feels, go to him every single time. He is not like us, he never holds a grudge, we do that to ourselves.

I'm confused then. Which is it? If "they" can mess up, who is "they"? Is it only heterosexual Christians that can mess up and go back to God for forgiveness? Are you saying that homosexual acts are unpardonable? It SEEMS like you're saying homosexuals can be saved BUT only their initial plea to God for forgiveness can be forgiven, if they fall into THAT sin again, it's unforgivable. That's what it SEEMS you're saying.

To God we will always be children, our actions are not a surprise to him.

Agreed.

And Christians have to forgive themselves and let go. God say to forgive and that means we have to forgive ourselves too. Christians that are addicted to a sin should give themselves credit for the amount of time they resisted, be proud and focus on what you accomplished not your failure. Retrain your mind with Gods words and meditate on him. Find scriptures that apply to your situation and say them over and over until they are real to you. Do not look back, don't lie to yourself and never give up. Be sincere and put forth your best effort. I know that God knows the heart, if we are sincere then he will respond and forgive and we should feel secure and know that we are Gods child forever. I think what is true in our hearts matters to God and we all know when we are just fooling ourselves and not really giving it our best effort.

So once again, I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying as you haven't really clarified who you're speaking about here or what situations are "ok" to fall back into. Are you saying that if a person is a homosexual that this person, BECAUSE they are homosexual, is unable to put forth their "best effort"? Their heart cannot be struggling with their sexuality and, since it is homosexuality, a fall back is to say that God has forsaken them and they are in a state of perpetual danmantion?

A heterosexual with problems of heterosexual immorality is able to fall into heterosexual immorality over and over and be forgiven but, having asked for forgiveness one time for homosexual immorality, a homosexual guilty of homosexual acts a second time (after initial forgiveness) cannot be forgiven? It's unpardonable after the initial forgiveness?

I'm still unclear on your answer to the question.
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[Gman]

Genes don't sin. I think we agree on that. Redeem genetics? What are you talking about?

Your belief is that everyone's genetic makeup is sinful.. Sin is in the genes.. So answer my question, how does a sinner fight against genetics? drugs?

No. May I ask politely that you not change my words to that which you think/hope I'm saying to substanciate your stance.
Now re-read the statement and please read more carefully this time. I've even helped you with some bolding.

A wise guy huh? Bold it all you want... You still won't understand it.

No! The point is not that homosexuals are "excused" from the sin of homosexual acts at all. The point is that homosexual acts are sin LIKE ANY OTHER SIN. There is nothing that makes homosexual sins WORSE than heterosexual perversity! There is no more "sin" in BEING homosexual, that is, BEING homosexual doesn't make a person a worse sinner! It's the ACTS, not his/her STATE OF BEING that is "more" detestable to God. We ALL are already detestable equally in God's sight...
Do YOU get it now?

Gee what an awesome discovery you have made.. Where is your proof? Sinning genes that are no more detestable than any other's genes.. . Again... I understand what you are saying. The point I'm trying to make is that GENETICS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT whether it's good, bad or in between. It's a spiritual conflict that starts with our souls and permeates out to our body. None of this excuse stuff that my genes made me do it. What a bunch of crap!!! No... YOU SINNED, not your body.

Get it now??

Not really. I'm saying EVERYONE's genetic makeup since Adam is sinful. All I'm saying about genetics and homosexuality is that sin has corrupted so much that even our physical genetics have been tainted and natural is no longer natural but now "natural" is relative, dictated by genes. Does this remove God's curse on homosexual acts? Not at all. The acts are still contrary to God and the acts remain detestable in His sight.

You are trying to create an equal sin now.. Again it's nothing about genetics.. It's all about choice and bad habits..

Is what you're saying that when we come to Christ we stop sinning? Have you stopped sinning? There is not one sin that keeps coming back into your life? If you sin, it's never the same sin twice? Amazing!

So out of one side of your mouth you say, "God forgives..." and out of the other you say if we keep sinning our salvation is wishful thinking?
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That is what you proclaim.. The human soul is tainted.. And yes, we still sin but not because of genetics but of freedom of will. Stop giving people a false hope..

[BavarianWheels]

Genes don't sin. I think we agree on that. Redeem genetics? What are you talking about?

Your belief is that everyone's genetic makeup is sinful.. Sin is in the genes.. So answer my question, how does a sinner fight against genetics? drugs?

Is it your belief that we are not sinful...sinful from conception? Do you deny Adam passed on his sinfulness to his offspring?

Christ is the "drug".

No. May I ask politely that you not change my words to that which you think/hope I'm saying to substanciate your stance.
Now re-read the statement and please read more carefully this time. I've even helped you with some bolding.

A wise guy huh? Bold it all you want... You still won't understand it.

Not a wise guy, just one pointing out your mistake in my words

No! The point is not that homosexuals are "excused" from the sin of homosexual acts at all. The point is that homosexual acts are sin LIKE ANY OTHER SIN. There is nothing that makes homosexual sins WORSE than heterosexual perversity! There is no more "sin" in BEING homosexual, that is, BEING homosexual doesn't make a person a worse sinner! It's the ACTS, not his/her STATE OF BEING that is "more" detestable to God. We ALL are already detestable equally in God's sight...
Do YOU get it now?

Gee what an awesome discovery you have made.. Where is your proof? Sinning genes that are no more detestable than any other's genes.. . Again... I understand what you are saying. The point I'm trying to make is that GENETICS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT whether it's good, bad or in between. It's a spiritual conflict that starts with our souls and permeates out to our body. None of this excuse stuff that my genes made me do it. What a bunch of crap!!! No... YOU SINNED, not your body.

Get it now??

If you get it, why do you continue in changing it? The fact of the matter is you don't get it. Genetics, you are right, have nothing to do whether something is sinful or not. If it goes against God and His will, it is sin. The spiritual conflict you speak of is generic and permeates us all, whether homo or heterosexual. You are right...WE sin, not our body. Our body is just sinFUL. Our sin nature is handed to us at conception...that's genetic. It's not a bunch of "crap" as your "Christianity" puts it.

Let's put it this way. Adam handed sin down genetically. So what then makes us sinful? Is it sin IN us or do we become sinful at the first sinful act?

Not really. I'm saying EVERYONE's genetic makeup since Adam is sinful. All I'm saying about genetics and homosexuality is that sin has corrupted so much that even our physical genetics have been tainted and natural is no longer natural but now "natural" is relative, dictated by genes. Does this remove God's curse on homosexual acts? Not at all. The acts are still contrary to God and the acts remain detestable in His sight.

You are trying to create an equal sin now.. Again it's nothing about genetics.. It's all about choice and bad habits.

So you're an authority now on the feelings and psyche of every homosexual AND heterosexual (for that matter)? We don't sin by choice, we are born sinners and as Christians we struggle at sin because it is NOT NATURAL TO DO GOD'S WILL. Homosexual acts are sinful. Being a "genetic" homosexual is no more sinful than being a "genetic" heterosexual. Each has it's own sinful sexual thoughts and one is not "better" than the other. There is no heirarchy of sin. Is heterosexual sodomy a better sin than homosexual sodomy?

Is what you're saying that when we come to Christ we stop sinning? Have you stopped sinning? There is not one sin that keeps coming back into your life? If you sin, it's never the same sin twice? Amazing!

So out of one side of your mouth you say, "God forgives..." and out of the other you say if we keep sinning our salvation is wishful thinking?

That is what you proclaim.. The human soul is tainted.. And yes, we still sin but not because of genetics but of freedom of will. Stop giving people a false hope..

I said that? Where? If I did, it was in the context of wilful like one thumbing their nose at God.
Wow! Who now is twisting scripture? So all this hype scripture talks about that sin was handed down from Adam is a lie? Romans 7:14-24 disagrees, but of course later on it explains the difference of living according to the sinful nature and living according to the Spirit. No where in scripture are we told we can overcome sin and be sinless. That only comes at the last trump... If we have the faith that saves, we need not worry about when we fall. He is there to pick us up WHATEVER our pet sin is. If I, in my heart, am truly leaning on Christ to get me through life and my pitfalls, then He is willing and will pick me up. Thanks be to God that He doesn't toss the homosexuals (or heterosexuals) aside that truly seek Him. Each has their own set of sexual struggles. Both, God is able to work with and save if they will let Him. There is no sin too great for God to work through except the unpardonable sin...and it is not even close to a sexual sin. One can be a "Mother Theresa" and still commit the unpardonable sin.

As a moderator, I suppose you're allowed to use these tactics of word twisting, name calling and cursing. That's ok. The old Bav would throw some back at you, however I wont.

The point of the matter is NOT that a genetic disposition to homosexuality is an excuse, but the point is that homosexuality become less and less a life choice and more and more a "natural" choice given the sin "gene" (I think you know what I mean when I say "sin gene") keeps doing it's work at manipulating our already sinful bodies/nature. The proof I have of this is the same proof you use to prove God exists. There is no proof other than evidence...the evidence of homosexuals that know they are "naturally" attracted to their same gender. For most, it is not a simple choice made on a whim. However that's not to say that some don't make that choice "unnaturally" on simple emotion, anger, trauma, or psychological problems. (among others)

So if by saying this, I'm giving a false hope, so be it. God is bigger than all sin and can and will save the worst of sinners WHATEVER the sin if the sinner but reach out in the slightest. Christ will reach out and grab hold of you even if you are a homosexual! As the father ran out to the Prodigal son, so the Father will run out to us even in our sin. It is not a false hope that God can save a homosexual. To limit God and say He can't or wont is a bigger sin. Does this give a homosexual license to commit homosexual acts without fear of reprisal? Does this give ANY OF US that liberty?

I notice you again have avoided the question.

Can a heterosexual Christian with sexual perversion tendencies/issues/problems truly be a Christian and thus be saved?
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[zoegirl]

I think the worry is that once you label it as genetics it has become validated. The fallacy, of course, is that there are plenty of behaviors that are genetically based that are still sinful or damaging or what we would call unfortunate at the least. The irony is that if we do ever get a "Gay gene" isolated, why would it be so wrong for someone to look for a fix for that gene? Nobody excuses someone who has a genetic predisposition for alcoholism for the damage they do to their family. Rather they look for therapies or even hope for a medical cure.

It's an interesting phenomenon that genetic disorders such as dwarfism or deafness have created an entire culture whereby a person's desire to gain height or have a surgery to hear is villified for betraying the culture. Please don't misunderstand me, I am not equating deafness or dwarfism to sexual sin! But the knowledge that much of our behavior and physical state is genetically based has led to our identifying ourselves based on our genes instead of humanity.

Ultimately, whatever the cause or the driving mechanism behind it, we are still plagued with pride, lust, anger...all sins.

I doubt we will ever be able to separate the two issues: genetics/sin...clearly whatever is the *mechanism*, we sin and we are guilty of that sin.

[BavarianWheels]

I think the worry is that once you label it as genetics it has become validated. The fallacy, of course, is that there are plenty of behaviors that are genetically based that are still sinful or damaging or what we would call unfortunate at the least. The irony is that if we do ever get a "Gay gene" isolated, why would it be so wrong for someone to look for a fix for that gene? Nobody excuses someone who has a genetic predisposition for alcoholism for the damage they do to their family. Rather they look for therapies or even hope for a medical cure.

It's an interesting phenomenon that genetic disorders such as dwarfism or deafness have created an entire culture whereby a person's desire to gain height or have a surgery to hear is villified for betraying the culture. Please don't misunderstand me, I am not equating deafness or dwarfism to sexual sin! But the knowledge that much of our behavior and physical state is genetically based has led to our identifying ourselves based on our genes instead of humanity.

Ultimately, whatever the cause or the driving mechanism behind it, we are still plagued with pride, lust, anger...all sins.

I doubt we will ever be able to separate the two issues: genetics/sin...clearly whatever is the *mechanism*, we sin and we are guilty of that sin.

I can agree with what you write, but why is it such a scare to "label" homosexuality as a genetic disorder? You have just said that no one excuses an alcoholic for damage they do...likewise I say it is NO MORE a sin to be homosexual than to be an alcoholic. The sin lies in their actions. I don't excuse their actions, I excuse their sin as simply that...SIN. Homosexual acts are no worse than heterosexual perversion, yet no one here would claim that a person with sexual perversion problems cannot be a Christian...no one has yet.

Doing so hardly validates it other than to say sin has so corrupted humanity that now even our gender preference is warped...genetically!. That is all. It doesn't make homosexuality all of a sudden acceptable.

My question then can be reworded to ask; Can an alcoholic be a Christian? Can he/she have all the problems and "sins" that are a result of alcoholism and STILL be a Christian and be assured salvation regardless of continually falling, as sinners do, in sin?

The irony is that if we do ever get a "Gay gene" isolated, why would it be so wrong for someone to look for a fix for that gene?

It's not wrong in my mind. I say find the fix and then we discuss it's implementation. Does God fix the homosexual 100%? Ultimately, yes. Does he, this side of salvation? I'm not sure. If so, what other sin falls into the homosexual sin arena that needs a 100% fix prior to any other work in the life taking place through Christ?
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[zoegirl]

I don't personally get spooked about talk of a gay gene. I highly doubt there could find any one specific gene as sexuality is so complicated, influenced by brain, hormones, environment...all of which combine in a very complex interplay. If they ever pin it down it would not remove the wrongness of the behavior, any more than a fat gene removes gluttony, or a very high sex drive removes lust, etc.

[A Y323]

All this reminds me of something C.S. Lewis wrote. It's the chapter on psychoanalysis in Mere Christianity. I think it really applies here. He wrote:

When a man makes a moral choice two things are involved. One is the act of choosing. The other is the various feelings, impulses and so on which his psychological outfit presents him with, and which are the raw material of his choice. Now this raw material may be of two kinds. Either it may be what we would call normal: it may consist of the sort of feelings common to all men. Or else it may consist of quite unnatural feelings due to things that have gone wrong in his subconscious.

So he's saying basically what Bavarian Wheels has been saying. That we can be predisposed to certain sins because of our bodies (our physical/psychological make-up). He even gives homosexuality as an example:

The desire of a man for a woman would be of the first kind: the perverted desire of a man for a man would be of the second.

He goes on to say:

God does not judge him on the raw material at all, but on what he has done with it. Most of the man's psychological makeup is probably due to his body: when his body dies all that will fall off him, and the real central man, the thing that chose, that made the best or the worst out of this material, will stand naked. All sorts of nice things which we thought our own, but which were really due to a good digestion, will fall off some of us: all sorts of nasty things which were due to complexes or bad health will fall off others. We shall then, for the first time, see every one as he really was. There will be surprises.

So although our body can predispose us to certain sins, it is still our responsibility whether or not to act on that disposition.

Anyway, that's my contribution to this thread.

[BavarianWheels]

I don't personally get spooked about talk of a gay gene. I highly doubt there could find any one specific gene as sexuality is so complicated, influenced by brain, hormones, environment...all of which combine in a very complex interplay. If they ever pin it down it would not remove the wrongness of the behavior, any more than a fat gene removes gluttony, or a very high sex drive removes lust, etc.

Exactly right! So then we agree. A homosexual can be a Christian and be right with God. The acts of sin are what make the difference and only God knows the heart to judge whether a homosexual continually falls into sin out of weakness or excuse. This thinking aligns also with any heterosexual "normal" sin. God knows our hearts and knows whether we continue in our own sin on excuse or on weakness.

So although our body can predispose us to certain sins, it is still our responsibility whether or not to act on that disposition.

Agree 100%.
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[sinnerbybirth]

On a lighter note, I found this quote that I thought was funny from C.S. Lewis.

"He that but looketh on a plate of ham and eggs to lust after it hath already committed breakfast with it in his heart."

[zoegirl]

I don't personally get spooked about talk of a gay gene. I highly doubt there could find any one specific gene as sexuality is so complicated, influenced by brain, hormones, environment...all of which combine in a very complex interplay. If they ever pin it down it would not remove the wrongness of the behavior, any more than a fat gene removes gluttony, or a very high sex drive removes lust, etc.

Exactly right! So then we agree. A homosexual can be a Christian and be right with God. The acts of sin are what make the difference and only God knows the heart to judge whether a homosexual continually falls into sin out of weakness or excuse. This thinking aligns also with any heterosexual "normal" sin. God knows our hearts and knows whether we continue in our own sin on excuse or on weakness.

So although our body can predispose us to certain sins, it is still our responsibility whether or not to act on that disposition.

Agree 100%.
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However, when one proclaims that it ISn;t a sin, then we would have some problems, agreed?

[BavarianWheels]

However, when one proclaims that it ISn;t a sin, then we would have some problems, agreed?

Define/state the proclamation. Is it one claimed I made? If so, point me to it or restate it for me.

My stance here is that simply BEING a homosexual is not A sin. It is the unnatural acts of homosexuality that is sin. We are all equally sinners and sinful apart from our sins that can be counted humanly speaking.
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