If you have to ask....

[Hamilton]

To cslewislover..I like your input on the VG issue. I used them simply as an example .. because Im struggling with it myself. I grew up playing them, and my dad wouldn't let my play anything more violent than asteroids. I stopped for a while and then bought an xbox 2 years ago tso that I would stay home on friday night instead of chasing women. The only games I found appealing are those I can directly compete with another person online, which of course turns you to first person shooters. I guess it could have been chess, but as you pointed out Im male, and apparently subject to those baser instincts. So here I am hopping around the screen shooting soldiers.. its war, thats the deal.

Then COD Modern Warfare 2 came out..you may have heard the controversy. One scene you are an undercover operative in a Chechen terrorist organization, you enter a Russian airport full of civilians , and are supposed to kill them. I couldn't do it. It felt wrong, and this is just virtual. So I walked through and continued on. But part of me wondered, and rationalized its not real... so I went back later on and played it out.. and two things happened...I felt utter disgust for doing it, and disturbingly, I also a felt power.

Thats when everything my Dad said to me as a kid came rushing back at that moment, and I understood.

Its not that a violent game will make people do violent things, but it could wake up something dormant in YOU that if dwelled upon, could turn into action. In this case, having power over others (which can be exercised in may forms). In other words..anything that is focused upon at length can lead to action. This works for both bad AND good things. Hence the reason for prayer and study of the Bible for the good. In regards to the bad, why bring the temptation to your doorstep?

So, when faced with the question, "Should I be playing violent video games"- My feeling is no, although I still find myself sitting down and popping in Battlefield 2: Bad Company (no civvies killed here; see- rationale) and hopping around the screen. My other rationale is its better than drinking and chasing women, but I still havent come up with a good answer to give to God, if asked. Therefore, I shouldn't be doing it....so Ill keep working on that.

[Gabrielman]

If you are interested in my advice (guy to guy) I would say that you shouldn't worry. If you like playing online (though I can't really stand playing online myself) just think of it as a friendly paint ball game without actually getting hurt. (A paint ball in the wrong area can be very bad maybe that is why they make cups...). Anyway, I try to stray away from games that have you kill innocents, as that is just flat our wrong. But if it is a friendly competition with friends, I see no problem. Also consider games that give you an alternative to killing. The splinter cell series takes away points if you kill anyone, you are to knock them out. That is still violent, but you are sparing their lives while saving the x-box world. And let's face one more fact, we live in a violent world. Men should be prepared to fight, and die, if need be. That is a sad fact, but it is still a fact. I think God made us with the instinct to fight and kill if necessary, now do people abuse that? Yes. Should we not fight at all (I mean in self defense of course), no. Why I say that is if we do not fight, then we will be killed. If believers never fought back, there would be none of us left, and no Christian faith to boot. If no one is here to spread the good news. I myself would prefer world peace, and when the time comes for the new heaven and the new earth, I will be glad to put up my sword and fight no more. If we let that fighting instinct to die away entirely, then we may all end up dead, who knows? However I would like to point out that the Bible is by far more violent in war than any game I have ever played. That is because it speaks of reality. People want to kill us and our loved ones, we as men need to stand up and protect. Never fight for profit, never kill for fun, always have sorrow for the lives that are lost. But a friendly game on a computer or xbox between friends, there is no problem. If you start acting that out in the real world, then there is a problem. Know the difference between reality and fiction, and you should be okay.

[Gabrielman]

Then COD Modern Warfare 2 came out..you may have heard the controversy. One scene you are an undercover operative in a Chechen terrorist organization, you enter a Russian airport full of civilians , and are supposed to kill them. I couldn't do it. It felt wrong, and this is just virtual.

The fact that you knew it is wrong to kill civilians shows that you know wrong from right. Now ask yourself this, would you do it in real life? I do not like the game, I never bought it, and that is why, as I said above I will not kill innocents, ever, under no circumstances, even if it meant I would die.

[Hamilton]

.

That said, being a season christian has nothing to do with your basic natural instincts or conscience. Most likely those that are teetering or are on here as non believers , are here BECAUSE of what they are feeling. Their life 'just doesn't feel right', or something happened that open their eyes to a particular behavior the suddenly feel is wrong, but cannot yet control. It is the very reason upon which I find myself here.

Well I do have to disagree with you here a little bit Not everyone who is new or on the edge comes because they feel there is something wrong with what they are doing, because they may not be doing anything wrong to begin with. Rather they may come on to seek answers. They may see the world, and see our faith, and see that they seemingly clash, and that prompts them to find out what we believe, and why we believe what we do. Think of it like this. Say you have been exposed to nothing but the world until now, and you happen upon some faith (let's say ours) and you see we do not believe in things like porn and fornication, and theft, and lying, and so on, and you want to know why. Maybe you start to believe in our faith, and then as time goes on you begin to wonder what else is wrong or sinful, because maybe the Bible doesn't talk about it in a direct way. You may not be sure, but just assuming it is wrong or right would be a bad idea. So it is good that they come and ask. Now if they already feel it is bad, then that is another story all together, but lets just assume that they are totally ignorant to begin with.

I see your point. I do come from a background in Christianity, so perhaps my feelings stem from that bias. Although for the last 20 years Ive been rationalizing very well my worldy way of life.

I imagine what Im saying is that if someone is coming here to seek answers, its because those questions have a predication. I believe that predication is a basic human instinct of the difference between right and wrong, whether taught or not. One can be taught to be a thief and rationalize its ok (Say Robin Hood type), but I dont think a majority of those people (negative bio-chemical reasons aside) feel that it is right. Especially if they have to do it under the cover of darkness or disguise, and evade law enforcement for example. Those are external factors that could lead a mind to logically deduce that the action is incorrect, which would lead to a further reflective thought to why, which can induce the natural basic instinct of right and wrong.

That said, their seeking of answers is driven by their basic instinct to adhere to natural law, which by that very act allows them to actually answer their own question without having to know the actual reason why.

Kind of like a built in fail-safe in the event you don't have access to the bible or christian influence whatsoever.

Ill have to give it more thought, thanks for stirring that pot a bit.

[Gabrielman]

Kind of like a built in fail-safe in the event you don't have access to the bible or christian influence whatsoever.

Actually that is very Biblical and you make a very good point brother! For we are without excuse.

Ill have to give it more thought, thanks for stirring that pot a bit.

[sinnerbybirth]

Then COD Modern Warfare 2 came out..you may have heard the controversy. One scene you are an undercover operative in a Chechen terrorist organization, you enter a Russian airport full of civilians , and are supposed to kill them. I couldn't do it. It felt wrong, and this is just virtual. So I walked through and continued on. But part of me wondered, and rationalized its not real... so I went back later on and played it out.. and two things happened...I felt utter disgust for doing it, and disturbingly, I also a felt power.

Just think Hamilton, your actions were carried out through a VG. You got to experience something that made you feel this way without actually doing it in real life. If you had done this in real life, you would have to live with that feeling your entire life. Sometimes, and I stress sometimes those type of experiences, have a way of helping us to experience them without the actual long term harm. I would love to play out parts of my life on a VG. If I didn't like the outcome, I could do it over different until I did.

Peace Brother.

[A Y323]

Then COD Modern Warfare 2 came out..you may have heard the controversy. One scene you are an undercover operative in a Chechen terrorist organization, you enter a Russian airport full of civilians , and are supposed to kill them. I couldn't do it. It felt wrong, and this is just virtual. So I walked through and continued on. But part of me wondered, and rationalized its not real... so I went back later on and played it out.. and two things happened...I felt utter disgust for doing it, and disturbingly, I also a felt power.

About that mission... that is why when you first load up that game there are TWO warnings about content some people may find disturbing. The first warning says: "Some players may find one of the missions disturbing or offensive. Would you like to have the option to skip this mission?" To which you can reply "Yes, ask me later." or "No, I will not be offended."
If you answer "No" a second warning titled in big red letters "DISTURBING CONTENT NOTICE" says "If you answer yes you will never be asked about skipping levels again."

You had the chance to skip that level, and if you knew violence in games makes you uncomfortable, you should have agreed to skip the level. Games go through a strict rating process, and it's on you to pay attention to the rating a game receives. If a game has a rating that makes you think it might make you uncomfortable, don't play it. It's as simple as that. But don't ignore the ratings and the warnings and then go around telling people video games are bad.

[cslewislover]

To cslewislover..I like your input on the VG issue. I used them simply as an example .. because Im struggling with it myself. I grew up playing them, and my dad wouldn't let my play anything more violent than asteroids.

I stopped for a while and then bought an xbox 2 years ago tso that I would stay home on friday night instead of chasing women. The only games I found appealing are those I can directly compete with another person online, which of course turns you to first person shooters. I guess it could have been chess, but as you pointed out Im male, and apparently subject to those baser instincts. So here I am hopping around the screen shooting soldiers.. its war, thats the deal.

Well, I wasn't saying anything about baser instincts, actually. Men and women are the way they are - aside from cultural influences - because God made us that way. I think the fighting aspect of males is there for a reason. Like anything else, if God made it it's good, but if abused, it's used for bad.

Then COD Modern Warfare 2 came out..you may have heard the controversy. One scene you are an undercover operative in a Chechen terrorist organization, you enter a Russian airport full of civilians , and are supposed to kill them. I couldn't do it. It felt wrong, and this is just virtual. So I walked through and continued on. But part of me wondered, and rationalized its not real... so I went back later on and played it out.. and two things happened...I felt utter disgust for doing it, and disturbingly, I also a felt power.

Thats when everything my Dad said to me as a kid came rushing back at that moment, and I understood.

Hmmm. Well I don't know about the power feeling. We all have our own issues to deal with, and I wouldn't even know if it's a bad issue or not, in reality. I don't know enough about it. Sometimes I think I could use more confidence, and that might feel like power if I got it, but I don't know.

Its not that a violent game will make people do violent things, but it could wake up something dormant in YOU that if dwelled upon, could turn into action. In this case, having power over others (which can be exercised in may forms). In other words..anything that is focused upon at length can lead to action. This works for both bad AND good things. Hence the reason for prayer and study of the Bible for the good. In regards to the bad, why bring the temptation to your doorstep?

Again, I think this would depend on the person. Some people have a real problem with drinking and so would be tempted easily, like any other weakness we might have. It just depends on the person. I'm sure there are some guys out there who don't even want to play video games . . . (maybe? lol).

So, when faced with the question, "Should I be playing violent video games"- My feeling is no, although I still find myself sitting down and popping in Battlefield 2: Bad Company (no civvies killed here; see- rationale) and hopping around the screen. My other rationale is its better than drinking and chasing women, but I still havent come up with a good answer to give to God, if asked. Therefore, I shouldn't be doing it....so Ill keep working on that.

It's good not to chase women, yes. As I said above, I don't consider fighting necessarily wrong (especially play fighting).

[jlay]

Ham,
I'm with you dude. Garbage in, garbage out. Although a game with killing may not make you a killer, it WILL desensitize you to violence.

As Paul said in Ephesians 5. "Do NOT be partakers with them." What ever you do, it should pass through the Christian filter. And I mean EVERYTHING. And I don't mean this to sound legalistic. It is a just warning. Ephesians 5 is baby steps for the young Christian on what NOT to do. Many a Christian is at one with the world. Many are so immature in areas of their walk that they just don't know any better. The effect? It damages or even breaks their fellowship with the Lord. It corrupts their walk and they lose their effectiveness when they grieve the spirit in such ways. I would say this is a reason we see so many fruitless Christians in our culture. They aren't impacting their world through ministry. They are just kind of observing. And so, to them ministry is something, 'other' Christians do. And I say this as once a part of the later. (And still a part in some ways, I'm sure) If a Christian is out of fellowship because of these things, they will not be effective. They will not bear fruit. And I am not talking about being on time to church and following their bible reading plan. I'm talking about being used of Christ in their world. I'm talking about the Word of God working effectually in them.

Think of this scripture as a filter. What ever is true, noble and right, whatever is pure, lovely and admirable. If anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think on such things. Each one of those words is a filter that we can pass all our activity through. Is this video game/book/ movie/ thought/etc. pure, noble or right? If not, leave it alone. Remember, the devil is waiting like a roaring lion to devour you. He just needs to get his nasty little toe in the door. Don't open that door to him. Friendship with the world is enmity with God.

[Gabrielman]

You know, I really don't see anything wrong with violent video games, at least not ones that you are the hero, or that give you a moral choice to make. I will say that things like GTA are very wrong, but to be honest other games like Morrowind, Splinter Cell, and the like are not bad at all, and you always have the choice of not even fighting at all in Morrowind. There are a variety of games out there, and many are based on the Bible (yes the Bible is violent at times...). However I will also say that games that give glory to being violent as a life style, and make killing out to be a sport are messed up. However I will say this, that being able to be exposed to violence and death to a certain degree (at least in this world) is necessary because there are evil people out there who want to kill us all, and to have a more ready state of mind may stop one from hesitating during a vital moment, such a hesitation could be the difference in life and death for you and your family. I have a lot of family in the military and many of them have killed people. They played violent games and were still not so desensitized as to enjoy killing them or even to relish the fact that they did. However according to them they were more capable of killing when need be, as the shock was less so for them. But then again that is all relative--some people may need it, others may not.

[cslewislover]

Yeah, there are definitely a huge variety of video games. If we are going to spend a certain amount of our time "unwinding" through entertainment, choosing some difficult and more intellectual (and moral) video games - as opposed to watching tv or playing cards or something - can be the better choice. We are to "pray always," but I don't think God meant for humans to be only studying His Word 24/7. We're more complicated than that. We have the ability to think of God ("pray always") while we work and play. We're to always have Him on our mind and make choices with His will in mind first, but He didn't exclude dancing and socializing from our lives. As one pastor I heard asked, "Have you tried getting your kids to study the bible all the time, and not let them play?" Doesn't work, and will lead to rebellion.

[Ngakunui]

I played Modern Warfare 2 with a relative of mine on his PS3. The level with the warning, too.

ಠ_ಠ

You know, they could have been a little more specific, like "This level contains murder of innocents, terribly slow walking speed, and a protagonist who tries to justify mass-murder as counter-terrorism". I was unpleasantly surprised, and didn't actually shoot anyone but the guards. People are too bloody vague when it comes to these sort of warnings. I thought it was going to be something like a political assassination. I didn't read the box the game came it, but aren't they supposed to list killing of innocents on the rating for the game, and it automatically leads to an M rating?


But, whatever. Thank you for replying on my topic about violent videogames with a topic of your own.
You mean it's not a reply?
ಠ______ಠ



But that's one thing about the games I play. The only ones I own and kept, and liked, I never felt like I was doing anything morally wrong in them. Except at the end of Shadow of the Colossus, but I got over it. I'll warn you that it's a bit of a spoiler, but the objective of the game is to kill sixteen "colossi"(giant walking rock monsters), each of which holds a fraction of a certain character's "soul" who is supposed to bring the protagonist's dead girlfriend back to life. Killing the colossi free these fragments and give them back to said character. Well, it turns out said character split up between the colossi was a demon, or at least something really bad that can possess people and represents itself through shadowy silhouettes of people. At the end, the protagonist gets possessed by this character and fights the people who have come to kill him. And then there's the ending that... makes... no... sense... I could never manage to complete the game a second time. Not to say aforementioned "demon" isn't antagonised, but I felt rather betrayed and wronged.

Only other game I felt wrong playing was Doom at some points(the original for D.O.S.), but only after I got far enough. They went a little in the wrong direction in trying to convey the player being on a Mars overrun by Demons, and the place where I found out an array of walls formed a swastika scared me half to death. Probably why I thought I was shooting Nazis in it when I first played it at like six.

I do feel afraid and uneasy with some levels I've been making for a Halflife 2 addon, as they're supposed to be dark/disturbing/scary. They're all abandoned, as it takes place after "the nuclear war" that never happened, and all the nuclear blasts made reality hiccup and the radios are transmitting illogical sentences and numbers. And all the rooms are dark, and nobody's around except corpses and shadows of people who got vaporised. Still, I don't feel I'm doing anything morally wrong, it's just disturbing as it's meant to be.(If you've ever heard the term "mind-screw", that explains most of it.)


In one game, I play, though, killing of innocents is sometimes necessary to progress through the game due to developer oversight. Namely Marathon. There are these people called "B.O.B.s" who will sometimes get stuck in narrow corridors due to bumping into eachother and stopping. Now, Bob doesn't mean to get in the way; he's a redshirt, it's his job to get shot, but he's unarmed and holds no harsh feelings to the player. He's just dumb. All of his clones, too. And there's no way to get past Bob in these situations without killing him. I always felt a little bad about this, but considering some of him yell "KILL ME" and "FROG BLAST THE VENT CORE" only to explode if the player gets too close, I justify it that way. And everything in this game looks like a 32x32 nebula of pixels, so it's not like you can tell that easily, anyway.

Personally, though, I think as long as the game isn't too realistic or serious, there's nothing wrong with violence. Ever played lemmings, anyone? That features teal pixels who explode into red pixels when they die, and that's the thought behind the game. Then again, you know what the cops like to say; crime turns your face into a pixelated mess. And anything else they'll get sued for showing. But I digress. Personally, I don't feel that any of the games I play are that violent. Either because they're too old to be taken seriously, or they just aren't that violent in the first place. In HalfLife 2 the most violent things are the Fast Zombies which... howl... besides zombies, the second worse thing is blood, which looks like people have been shot with crimson paintballs rather than bullets.