Who was in the garden with Adam & Eve?

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:08 pm

Was it the God Almighty, the Father of our Lord?

If it is, doesn't that mean Adam & Eve saw God? Wouldn't that mean they would've died? If that's not the case, how come we are allowed second chances even though man saw God face to face?

Was it Jesus Christ?

Could it be that Jesus Christ was the one in the garden who was with Adam & Eve, because we may see our Lord without dieing, and those who see him still get second chances?

My reasoning is this: Angels don't get second chances if they mess up because they have seen God the Father face to face. So when Adam & Eve messed up, they couldn't have seen Him because that would mean they saw Him face to face and so shouldn't be allowed second chances. However, if it was Jesus Christ our Lord who was in the garden with them, this is resolved because man CAN see Jesus Christ face to face without dieing and CAN get second chances after witnessing His glory and denying Him.

Your thoughts?

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:38 pm

never thought of this before...

j316 · Post by **j316** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:53 pm

Here's a thought on Adam and Eve,they initially had a different relationship with God than they and we do after the fall. How might that affect seeing Him?

Where did you get the part about the angels messing up?
I guess it may not sound like it but I basically agree with your concept "all things that were made were made through Him."

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:53 pm

j316 wrote:Here's a thought on Adam and Eve,they initially had a different relationship with God than they and we do after the fall. How might that affect seeing Him?

Where did you get the part about the angels messing up?
I guess it may not sound like it but I basically agree with your concept "all things that were made were made through Him."

Satan and his angels sinned once, and now can't regain the status in the eyes of the Lord. They are forever disgraced by their disobedience to God, there is no redemption possible for them.

AttentionKMartShoppers · Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:17 pm

My view on why angels don't get second chances is that they sinned IN heaven, right smack dab in front of God. Adam and Eve, though they saw God the Father (I doubt it was Jesus, because when He curses Satan, women, the earth, and mankind, he prophecises Jesus' coming when he says that one verse about trodding on feet and biting heels (I've memorized the bible, can't you tell)) they sinned on earth. And they could look at God because they hadn't fallen....so it wasn't sin staring God in the face....yet.

j316 · Post by **j316** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:51 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:My view on why angels don't get second chances is that they sinned IN heaven, right smack dab in front of God. Adam and Eve, though they saw God the Father (I doubt it was Jesus, because when He curses Satan, women, the earth, and mankind, he prophecises Jesus' coming when he says that one verse about trodding on feet and biting heels (I've memorized the bible, can't you tell)) they sinned on earth. And they could look at God because they hadn't fallen....so it wasn't sin staring God in the face....yet.

Well, it wouldn't be unusual for Jesus to prophesy His own coming, the way the trinitarian concept works out in action is hard for us to concieve.
I am more interested in conjecture about the angels, keeping in mind that it is extra-biblical. Do you think angels have free will?

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:15 am

Angels do have free will. How do you think Satan revolted?

j316 · Post by **j316** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:55 pm

Maybe he was destined to revolt? Show me scripture that says otherwise.

AttentionKMartShoppers · Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:22 pm

Well, it wouldn't be unusual for Jesus to prophesy His own coming, the way the trinitarian concept works out in action is hard for us to concieve.
I am more interested in conjecture about the angels, keeping in mind that it is extra-biblical. Do you think angels have free will?

True true about the first part. If it were Jesus in the Garden, it was still God-though not the Father.

And on free will. Angels probably have free will. If they didn't, and God destined Satan to revolt, then wouldn't God haven been basically damning the world through His own actions? The Fall would have been God's fault...yes, Adam and Eve made the decision, but it was God who tempted them, because He unleashed Satan. Angels, though, don't have an evil nature. And they have a real strong motivating factor for always listening to God-if they dont, they're toast. And, other things I don't understand yet.

voicingmaster · Post by **voicingmaster** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:48 pm

I don't think God designed Satan for evil. B/c in God's eyes, the temptor is just as bad as the temptee, and God would be a temptor, therefore that would make God a sinner.

Also, as for seeing God's face and stuff. Even if seeing the face of God eliminates salvation, that would only eliminate Adam and Eve's chance, not ours. We didn't see His face. Granted we didn't eat the evil fruit either, but the sinful nature is inherited, seeing God's face isn't.

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:52 pm

Maybe he was destined to revolt? Show me scripture that says otherwise.

No, you show me scripture that says he was destined to revolt because Determinism and Christianity don't mix.

Prodigal Son · Post by **Prodigal Son** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:58 pm

attentionkmartshoppers,

cool thoughts.

j316 · Post by **j316** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:17 pm

Mastermind wrote:Maybe he was destined to revolt? Show me scripture that says otherwise.

No, you show me scripture that says he was destined to revolt because Determinism and Christianity don't mix.

Why don't you ask St Augustine about free will vs determinism. Your response was just a sideways slide out of the question, what you have to deal with is the issue of omnipotence.
Angels were messengers of God, why would a messenger have free will? And even if he had free will how could he alter the will of an omnipotent creator?

Does the temptation of man make God a sinner? Not if it served a divine purpose.

j316 · Post by **j316** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:29 pm

MM, there is very little scripture on the subject of angels and not much more on free will vs determinism. There is something noble in man's defiance of an omnipotent God but I don't think that man will prevail in the end. However I do feel that all of that is part of a plan and perhaps the end has not yet been written, what could God fear from us?
I have to retire now,[ perhaps a side effect of the fall?] but it has been fun.LOL

Mastermind · Post by **Mastermind** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:47 am

Why don't you ask St Augustine about free will vs determinism. Your response was just a sideways slide out of the question, what you have to deal with is the issue of omnipotence.

How was it a sideways slide out of the question? You are the one making idiotic assumptions that make God a sinner just like voicingmaster pointed out. Who is really sliding out?

Angels were messengers of God, why would a messenger have free will? And even if he had free will how could he alter the will of an omnipotent creator?

Why not? Are you saying God made Satan to rebel and punished him for something God did in the first place? And who said he could alter the will of an omnipotent creator? Just because God is more powerful does not mean lucifer couldn't try. Remember, PRIDE was his downfall. He THOUGHT he could do it.

Does the temptation of man make God a sinner? Not if it served a divine purpose.

No, but predetermining somebody's future to cause evil then punishing him for it DOES make God a sinner.

MM, there is very little scripture on the subject of angels and not much more on free will vs determinism. There is something noble in man's defiance of an omnipotent God but I don't think that man will prevail in the end. However I do feel that all of that is part of a plan and perhaps the end has not yet been written, what could God fear from us?
I have to retire now,[ perhaps a side effect of the fall?] but it has been fun.LOL

Most of this stuff has nothing to do with anything. The fact remains that if determinism exists, God is evil for punishing creatures whose evil deeds he commanded!