Prayer to Saints

[August]

I know we have discussed this here before, and it is a sensitive topic. I saw this on another discussion board, and it disturbs me:

Novena To St. Peregrine

Glorious wonder-worker, St. Peregrine, you answered the divine call with a ready spirit, and forsook all the comforts of a life of ease and all the empty honors of the world to dedicate yourself to God in the Order of His holy Mother.

You labored manfully for the salvation of souls. In union with Jesus crucified, you endured painful sufferings with such patience as to deserve to be healed miraculously of an incurable cancer in your leg by a touch of His divine hand.

Obtain for ***** the grace to answer every call of God and to fulfill His will in all the events of life. Enkindle in my heart a consuming zeal for the salvation of all men.

Deliver her from the infirmities that afflict *****'s body. Obtain for her also a perfect resignation to the sufferings it may please God to send her, so that, imitating our crucified Savior and His sorrowful Mother, she may merit eternal glory in heaven.

St. Peregrine, pray for Linda and for all who invoke your aid.

Prayer to Saint Peregrine

O great St. Peregrine, you have been called "The Mighty," "The Wonder-Worker," because of the numerous miracles which you have obtained from God for those who have had recourse to you. For so many years you bore in your own flesh this cancerous disease that destroys the very fibre of our being, and who had recourse to the source of all grace when the power of man could do no more. You were favoured with the vision of Jesus coming down from His Cross to heal your affliction. Ask of God and Our Lady, the cure of the sick whom we entrust to you.

I know the answers from our Catholic friends, who maintain that this is merely asking someone to intercede and pray for you, like you would at church, or in our prayer threads here. But this just seems to go a step further, in my opinion.

What do you guys think?

PS: This thread will be locked at the first sign of anyone's salvation being questioned. This is meant to be a theological discussion about prayers to (dead) RC Saints.

[CeT-To]

yeah i kinda agree there is too much praisal which is kinda only reserved for God in my books and i am catholic. Plus i dont think humans talked to angels this way when asking them to talk to God for them in genesis before the nephilim incident, how the angels brought the humans cases before God LOL not sure if i got that off Book of Enoch though hahaha

[B. W.]

Not sure what to think of this prayer...

Since Jesus is our mediator and there is only one mediator between God and man, then why would be thru someone else necessary when praying to the Lord? Note principle mentioned in1 Timothy 2:5

Then what of Mathew 18:19-20 in light of 1 Timothy 2:5?

Add to this: How did Jesus set forth the principles of prayer in - Mathew 6:6-7 and Mathew 6:8-9 and Mark 11:24 and John 14:13-14?
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Bible references:

1 Ti 2:5, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men...Jesus Christ "

Mat 18:19-20, "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

Mat 6:6-9, "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name..."

Mark 11:24, "Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them."

Joh 14:13-14, "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it..."

All Bible Quotes from the NKJV

[RickD]

B.W. wrote:

Since Jesus is our mediator and there is only one mediator between God and man, then why would be thru someone else necessary when praying to the Lord? Note principle mentioned in1 Timothy 2:5

Ding, Ding, we have a winner. This Bible verse alone is enough to point out one of the many terrible doctrines that the Roman Catholic Church has been promoting. As I've said before, there may be saved Christians inside the R.C. Church. But, they're saved despite the teachings of their cult/church. About half of my wife's family, including her, came from a R.C. background before The Lord delivered them from bondage.

[smiley]

PS: This thread will be locked at the first sign of anyone's salvation being questioned.

I wonder if praying to Saints has any kind of negative impact on one's status as a saved person. . .

J/k.

I would definitely say that it's unbiblical. However, I was born in an Eastern Orthodox country where I was taught to pray to Saints no different than I do to God. I don't know if Catholics do this, but we also have days dedicated to praising (I'm tempted to say "worshiping") specific Saints.

My grand-grandfather even claimed that he was visited at night by one particular female Saint (I don't know how to say her name in English) and strangled for three nights in a row because he refused to keep these days.

Only when I started studying Christianity myself did I begin wondering why these Saints don't visit any Protestants.

[RickD]

Smiley, in Deuteronomy 18:11, God calls it detestable to consult the dead. Some people don't realize that by praying to "dead saints", they open themselves up to evil spirits. They think that they pray to dead saints, but they are actually praying to demons. And by doing so, they are inviting demons into their lives.

[sinnerbybirth]

Just how many dead saints are there, that are prayed to? Or can any dead saint apply to this?

[Byblos]

Just how many dead saints are there, that are prayed to? Or can any dead saint apply to this?

None.

[jlay]

None?
Maybe if you do a little verbal gymnastics.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying ... Saints.asp

They mention Rev. 5:8, which is obviously twisted to suit this unbiblical doctrine.
Who is a saint? Anyone who is a child of God. There is no reason to think the prayers of the saints are that of dead people who the RCC has deemed worthy of the title. In fact Rev. 13 says that the beast was given power to make war against the saints. And the context is clear that the location is ON THE EARTH.

The word saint comes from the Greek word "hagios" which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.” "…Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem" (Acts 9:13). "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda" (Acts 9:32). "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons … “(Acts 26:10). There is only one instance of the singular use and that is "Greet every saint in Christ Jesus…" (Philippians 4:21). In Scripture there are 67 uses of the plural “saints” compared to only one use of the singular word “saint.” Even in that one instance, a plurality of saints is in view “…every saint…” (Philippians 4:21).

The idea of the word “saint” is a group of people set apart for the Lord and His kingdom. There are three references referring to godly character of saints; "that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints …" (Romans 16:2). "For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12). "But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints" (Ephesians 5:3).

Therefore, Scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints…and at the same time are called to be saints. 1 Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly, “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the Biblical description and calling of the saints.
http://www.gotquestions.org/saints-Christian.html

There is absolutey no model of prayer by Jesus, Paul, or the disciples that would indicate that we are to ask dead people to pray for us. None, zilch, zero. In fact we are given several models of prayer by Jesus, and Paul, and all of them are directly to the Father, in the name of the son. This doctrine is a lie, and sad that so many refuse repent of it.

[Byblos]

None?
Maybe if you do a little verbal gymnastics.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying ... Saints.asp

They mention Rev. 5:8, which is obviously twisted to suit this unbiblical doctrine.
Who is a saint? Anyone who is a child of God. There is no reason to think the prayers of the saints are that of dead people who the RCC has deemed worthy of the title. In fact Rev. 13 says that the beast was given power to make war against the saints. And the context is clear that the location is ON THE EARTH.

The word saint comes from the Greek word "hagios" which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.” "…Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem" (Acts 9:13). "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda" (Acts 9:32). "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons … “(Acts 26:10). There is only one instance of the singular use and that is "Greet every saint in Christ Jesus…" (Philippians 4:21). In Scripture there are 67 uses of the plural “saints” compared to only one use of the singular word “saint.” Even in that one instance, a plurality of saints is in view “…every saint…” (Philippians 4:21).

The idea of the word “saint” is a group of people set apart for the Lord and His kingdom. There are three references referring to godly character of saints; "that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints …" (Romans 16:2). "For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12). "But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints" (Ephesians 5:3).

Therefore, Scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints…and at the same time are called to be saints. 1 Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly, “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the Biblical description and calling of the saints.
http://www.gotquestions.org/saints-Christian.html

There is absolutey no model of prayer by Jesus, Paul, or the disciples that would indicate that we are to ask dead people to pray for us. None, zilch, zero. In fact we are given several models of prayer by Jesus, and Paul, and all of them are directly to the Father, in the name of the son. This doctrine is a lie, and sad that so many refuse repent of it.

I respectfully disagree.

[jlay]

Care to elaborate?

Do you disagree:

-That there is no scriptural support for praying to saints. (If so, please site contextual scripture references)
-That all believers are saints. (if so, please site contextual scripture references)
-With the Catholic.com opinion of praying to the saints for intercession.
-That there is no model of prayer by Jesus or Paul to condone asking for prayers from dead people. (contextual scriptural references)
-With my assertion that Rev. 5:8 in no way indicates dead people who were selected by the RCC to pray to.

Thanks,
Joel

[Gman]

There is absolutey no model of prayer by Jesus, Paul, or the disciples that would indicate that we are to ask dead people to pray for us. None, zilch, zero. In fact we are given several models of prayer by Jesus, and Paul, and all of them are directly to the Father, in the name of the son. This doctrine is a lie, and sad that so many refuse repent of it.

Jlay.. Please refrain from attacking others on this panel. It's obvious you haven't studied Catholicism much...

[RickD]

There is absolutey no model of prayer by Jesus, Paul, or the disciples that would indicate that we are to ask dead people to pray for us. None, zilch, zero. In fact we are given several models of prayer by Jesus, and Paul, and all of them are directly to the Father, in the name of the son. This doctrine is a lie, and sad that so many refuse repent of it.

Jlay.. Please refrain from attacking others on this panel. It's obvious you haven't studied Catholicism much...

Gman, What did jlay post that is in error? While no expert on Catholicism, I'm pretty familiar with it. Jlay's post was right on target. Did I miss the post where jlay attacked someone on this post? Jlay and i have had our fair share of disagreements on other posts, but I don't see him attacking anyone. He's just pointing out the errors of a man-made religion. Gman, I think if you studied the history of Catholicism, you would see how corrupt it really is. It's the Catholic Church itself that is corrupt. Not most of the millions of people in bondage to its lies.

[jlay]

G,
My post is nothing more than an attack on a false doctrine. The one you quote is NOT addressed to any person, but to a doctrinal position, as referenced to the website in the post.
I challenge you to disprove one fact I provided. I laid out the points of my argument to Byblos. You are welcome to point out where I am 'attacking.' My post was concise and scripturally supported.
This is exactly one of the problems on this board. I suggest the mods get together and I figure out the difference in an attack on a position vs. a person. Is it alright for you and others to say positions are wrong in regards to evolution, age of the earth, mormonism, etc,?

It IS a personal attack for you to say, "It's obvious you haven't studied Catholicism much"

[RickD]

Catholicism's "gospel" is a gospel of works. The same as any other false doctrine or man-made religion. If we as Christians, on a Christian board, can't speak the truth about false teachings, how can we help bring people stuck in these works based religions out of bondage, and into a relationship with God through faith in Christ?