All of this over the word happiness?!?!?!?!?!?
Maybe, just maybe, in the future, instead of a long post detailing how wrong we are, you could simply ask for clarification!?? Amazingly enough we have known each other long enough to grant that. A simple post saying "what do you mean by happiness" would prevent these long back and forth and, let's face it, needless "you're wrong and I'm right" posts. Indeed, considering that all of us can point to suffering we have had in the present and in the past (Joblessness???, chronic debilitating illness ? ridicule for the faith, anyone?) it would seem rather obvious that most of us here can attest that the Christian life is not pollyanna sweetness and light that you seem to imply of his post.
So again, to make it clear, nobody here meant that the Christian life would be all sweetness and light. But it will bring joy.
Purpose of prayer
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zoegirl
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Re: Purpose of prayer
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"
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cslewislover
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Re: Purpose of prayer
I just read this today, and I really like it! I thought it would be helpful or encouraging for anyone looking into prayer.
Praying in the Name of Jesus
Just hours before Jesus’ death, He promised His disciples, “If you ask anything in My name, I will do it” (John 14:14 NKJV).
Two thousand years later, those words continue to echo around the world. Millions of us will end our prayers today “in Jesus’ name.”
But what about the promise? If we consider ourselves as Christ’s people, we probably would say that we pray in Jesus’ name. Yet who among us would suggest that, by doing so, we get everything we ask for?
Maybe we don’t take the promise literally. After all, common sense tells us that our Lord wouldn’t be treating prayer like a blank check that just needs to be filled out and signed in His name. Loving parents don’t give their children everything they want. Besides, some of us would be dangerous if we could say the right word and get anything we asked for. But, if that’s the case, why did our Lord later repeat His promise to honor all requests made in His name (15:16; 16:23)?
What did Jesus mean when He promised to honor any request made in His name? Thankfully, we don’t have to guess what He meant. In the same teaching, Jesus went on to make it clear that getting answers to our prayers involves more than adding His name to the end of our requests. While likening His relationship to His disciples as that of a vine and a branch, He said, “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you” (John 15:7 NKJV).
Later, the apostle John gave us some additional clarification. In his first New Testament letter, John urges his readers to continue believing in the name of the Son of God, and then immediately adds, “Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him” (1 John 5:14-15 NKJV).
Here for a third time, we have a promise of answered prayer. Yet all three instances seem to come with a different condition. How can we be sure that “abiding in Him” and “asking according to His will” are clarifications of what it means to “pray in Jesus’ name”?
The answer comes in another question:
What’s in a name? In the ancient Middle East, personal names were often chosen more for their meaning than for their sound or popularity. In that sense, a name was often regarded as reflection of a person’s character.
In a culture where names had such significance, the meaning of Jesus’ name, therefore, did more than give His disciples access to His Father. When He said, “If you ask anything in My name, I will do it,” He was saying that when our requests line up with His own heart and will, He gives us what we ask for.
What does asking in the name of Jesus look like? The answer comes to us in a model prayer that was like a mirror of our Lord’s own heart.
When His disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray (Matthew 6; Luke 11), He showed them how to pray in His name when He taught them to say,
Our Father in heaven, may Your name be honored: This was the Son’s deepest commitment. He was born to honor the name of His Father (Luke 1:31-32).
Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven: As expressed by His first recorded words, He had come to do His Father’s business (Luke 2:49; John 5:30).
Give us today our daily bread: Knowing what it is like to go without food and shelter, the Son rested in His Father’s ability to provide for Him (Matthew 4:4; 8:20; John 4:32).
Forgive us as we forgive others: Even though He was without sin, He prayed for those who were crucifying Him, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing” (Luke 23:34 NLT).
Deliver us from the evil one. In the face of insult, hunger, and fear, Jesus defeated our enemy by resisting every temptation to not trust His Father—even to death on a cross (Matthew 4:1-11).
Together, then, each element of the Lord’s Prayer shows us how to make requests in His name.
Admittedly, this might cause us to pray in ways that at first might seem more general than we are used to. But what could be more pleasing to our God than to express our desire to honor His name in every circumstance; to request that His will be done in the face of our worst fears; to pray for provision one day at a time; to ask for forgiveness as we show mercy in all of our relationships; and to request deliverance from our enemy in each moment of temptation?
In time, we may learn that praying this way may actually enable us to focus on the “whats” that we know are rooted deeply in His heart. Over time, we may actually discover more confidence in our requests as we learn to leave with Him the “hows” and “whens” of His answers.
With a renewed awareness of what it means to pray in Jesus’ name, we can pray together,
Father in heaven, please help us to use the name of Your Son not only to come gratefully into Your presence, but to ask for what You have taught us to request—for Your honor, for the sake of Your Son, and for our joy. —Mart De Haan
Praying in the Name of Jesus
Just hours before Jesus’ death, He promised His disciples, “If you ask anything in My name, I will do it” (John 14:14 NKJV).
Two thousand years later, those words continue to echo around the world. Millions of us will end our prayers today “in Jesus’ name.”
But what about the promise? If we consider ourselves as Christ’s people, we probably would say that we pray in Jesus’ name. Yet who among us would suggest that, by doing so, we get everything we ask for?
Maybe we don’t take the promise literally. After all, common sense tells us that our Lord wouldn’t be treating prayer like a blank check that just needs to be filled out and signed in His name. Loving parents don’t give their children everything they want. Besides, some of us would be dangerous if we could say the right word and get anything we asked for. But, if that’s the case, why did our Lord later repeat His promise to honor all requests made in His name (15:16; 16:23)?
What did Jesus mean when He promised to honor any request made in His name? Thankfully, we don’t have to guess what He meant. In the same teaching, Jesus went on to make it clear that getting answers to our prayers involves more than adding His name to the end of our requests. While likening His relationship to His disciples as that of a vine and a branch, He said, “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you” (John 15:7 NKJV).
Later, the apostle John gave us some additional clarification. In his first New Testament letter, John urges his readers to continue believing in the name of the Son of God, and then immediately adds, “Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him” (1 John 5:14-15 NKJV).
Here for a third time, we have a promise of answered prayer. Yet all three instances seem to come with a different condition. How can we be sure that “abiding in Him” and “asking according to His will” are clarifications of what it means to “pray in Jesus’ name”?
The answer comes in another question:
What’s in a name? In the ancient Middle East, personal names were often chosen more for their meaning than for their sound or popularity. In that sense, a name was often regarded as reflection of a person’s character.
In a culture where names had such significance, the meaning of Jesus’ name, therefore, did more than give His disciples access to His Father. When He said, “If you ask anything in My name, I will do it,” He was saying that when our requests line up with His own heart and will, He gives us what we ask for.
What does asking in the name of Jesus look like? The answer comes to us in a model prayer that was like a mirror of our Lord’s own heart.
When His disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray (Matthew 6; Luke 11), He showed them how to pray in His name when He taught them to say,
Our Father in heaven, may Your name be honored: This was the Son’s deepest commitment. He was born to honor the name of His Father (Luke 1:31-32).
Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven: As expressed by His first recorded words, He had come to do His Father’s business (Luke 2:49; John 5:30).
Give us today our daily bread: Knowing what it is like to go without food and shelter, the Son rested in His Father’s ability to provide for Him (Matthew 4:4; 8:20; John 4:32).
Forgive us as we forgive others: Even though He was without sin, He prayed for those who were crucifying Him, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing” (Luke 23:34 NLT).
Deliver us from the evil one. In the face of insult, hunger, and fear, Jesus defeated our enemy by resisting every temptation to not trust His Father—even to death on a cross (Matthew 4:1-11).
Together, then, each element of the Lord’s Prayer shows us how to make requests in His name.
Admittedly, this might cause us to pray in ways that at first might seem more general than we are used to. But what could be more pleasing to our God than to express our desire to honor His name in every circumstance; to request that His will be done in the face of our worst fears; to pray for provision one day at a time; to ask for forgiveness as we show mercy in all of our relationships; and to request deliverance from our enemy in each moment of temptation?
In time, we may learn that praying this way may actually enable us to focus on the “whats” that we know are rooted deeply in His heart. Over time, we may actually discover more confidence in our requests as we learn to leave with Him the “hows” and “whens” of His answers.
With a renewed awareness of what it means to pray in Jesus’ name, we can pray together,
Father in heaven, please help us to use the name of Your Son not only to come gratefully into Your presence, but to ask for what You have taught us to request—for Your honor, for the sake of Your Son, and for our joy. —Mart De Haan
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DannyM
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Re: Purpose of prayer
Yeah I'm happy that there is an afterlife and I will be there to live eternally with my beautiful girl who will one day be my wife, and my lovely family. I'm happy knowing that God is. I'm happy that God loves me far more than I love Him or that I could ever imagine. The existence of such a love astounds me and makes me happy.
So shoot me!
So shoot me!
credo ut intelligam
dei gratia
dei gratia
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jlay
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Re: Purpose of prayer
Wow! You are in a hurry to get there.So shoot me!
I understand what you are saying here Danny. I don't think everyone understood what I was saying. Happiness is a temporal state. An emotion. Happiness is gernerally dictated by circumstances. As circumstances change, happiness comes and goes. When my father-n-law died in January, I was not happy. However, I had an immovable joy because I knew His faith in Christ.
Joy is the Word the bible uses to describe the permenant state of security that we can rest our trust in, regarding our eternal hope. No matter how depressed we are, or how hopeless our circumstances are here on earth, we can KNOW that we have eternal life. 1 John 5:13
This is a very solid Christian doctrine.
The problem with happiness is we do not want to try and use happiness in anyway to attract a lost person to the faith. That is called life improvement evangelism. It has become a very popular modern method (See Joel Osteen for ex.) Jesus is better than drugs, promiscuity, partying, other religions, etc. "It will make you happier. Jesus will come in and fix every little thing." This is when we get people experimenting with the faith to see if those claims are true. And sense it is not true, often they leave more hardened than before. "They said being a Christian would make me happy, improve my life, etc." When in fact, we know that Jesus and Paul warned of sufferings we will face because of the faith. In fact James said to consider it pure joy when you suffer. Jesus said, blessed are those who are persecuted for His name's sake. Yikes. Did the rich young ruler see Jesus offer as a path to happiness? No. That is why I am so opposed to such methods of witnessing.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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B. W.
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Re: Purpose of prayer
Hey there Jlay,jlay wrote:...The problem with happiness is we do not want to try and use happiness in anyway to attract a lost person to the faith. That is called life improvement evangelism. It has become a very popular modern method (See Joel Osteen for ex.) Jesus is better than drugs, promiscuity, partying, other religions, etc. "It will make you happier. Jesus will come in and fix every little thing." This is when we get people experimenting with the faith to see if those claims are true. And sense it is not true, often they leave more hardened than before. "They said being a Christian would make me happy, improve my life, etc."
When in fact, we know that Jesus and Paul warned of sufferings we will face because of the faith. In fact James said to consider it pure joy when you suffer. Jesus said, blessed are those who are persecuted for His name's sake. Yikes. Did the rich young ruler see Jesus offer as a path to happiness? No. That is why I am so opposed to such methods of witnessing.
I look over Gabe’s post and comments and he is not trying to push ‘life improvement evangelism’ here to kris. The context of Gabe’s post proves that to me. There is an internal sense of well being also called happiness that bible also defines as a peace that surpasses knowledge Philippians 4:7
AMG Word Studies defines Peace as posted below...
So if Kris is still around or others seeking – read the above quote concerning happiness…From AMG Word Studies
Stronges Number (1515)
εἰρήνη
eirḗnē; gen. eirḗnēs, fem. noun. Peace.
(I) Particularly in a civil sense, the opposite of war and dissension (Luk14:32; Act12:20; Rev6:4). Among individuals, peace, harmony (Mat10:34; Luk12:51; Act7:26; Rom14:19). In Heb7:2, "King of peace," means a peaceful king. Metaphorically peace of mind, tranquility, arising from reconciliation with God and a sense of a divine favor (Rom5:1; Rom15:13; Php4:7 [cf. Isa53:5]).
(II) By implication, a state of peace, tranquility (Luk2:29; Luk11:21; Joh16:33; Act9:31; 1Co14:33; 1Th5:3; Sept.: Jdg6:23; Isa14:30; Eze38:8, Eze38:11).
(III) Peace, meaning health, welfare, prosperity, every kind of good. In Luk 1:79, "the way of peace" means the way of happiness; Luk 2:14; Luk10:6, "son of peace" means son of happiness, i.e., one worthy of it; Luk 19:42; Rom 8:6; Eph 6:15, "gospel of peace" means gospel of bliss, i.e., which leads to bliss; 2Th3:16. "The God of peace" means the author and giver of blessedness (Rom 15:33; Rom 16:20; Php 4:9; 1Th 5:23; Heb13:20 [cf. Sept.: Isa9:6, "the Prince of Peace"]). "Your peace" means the good or blessing which you have in Christ and share through salutation and benediction (Mat 10:13; Luk 10:6; Joh14:27). The expression "with peace" means with good wishes, benediction, kindness (Act15:33; Heb11:31). Simply "in peace" (1Co16:11; Sept.: Gen26:29; Exo18:23). As used in formulas of salutation, either at meeting or parting, see aspázomai (G782), to embrace, to greet. Thus on meeting, the salutation is "Peace be unto you [eirḗnē humín]," meaning every good wish (Luk24:36; Joh20:19, Joh20:21, Joh20:26; Dan10:19). Also in letters (Rom1:7; Rom2:10; 1Co1:3; 2Co1:2; Gal1:3). In Luk10:5, "Peace unto this house" (a.t.) means every good wish for this house; Sept.: Jdg19:20; 1Ch12:18. At parting, húpage (G5217), go, meaning to go away in peace (Mar5:34; Jas2:16). The same with the verb poreúou from poreúomai (G4198), to go in peace (Luk7:50; Luk8:48; Act16:36; Sept.: Jdg18:6; 1Sa1:17; 1Sa20:42).
(IV) In the OT the equivalent word shalom (H7965) meant wholeness, soundness, hence health, well-being, prosperity; more particularly, peace as opposed to war (Jdg4:17; 1Sa7:14; Ecc3:8 [cf. Luk14:32; Act12:20; Rev6:4]), or concord as opposed to strife (Psa28:3; Jer9:8; Oba1:7 [cf. Mat10:34; 1Co7:15; Eph4:3 {see also Act24:2; 1Th5:3; Psa122:7; Isa52:7; Jer29:7}]).
(V) God is said to be a God of peace, not as one who needs peace, but one who dispenses peace. He expects peace of His people, meaning the absence of confusion (Rom14:17; 1Co7:15; 1Co14:33; Eph4:3; Heb12:14; Psa34:14; Psa35:20; Zec8:16). He rewards those who practice this peace (Jas3:18 [cf. Mat5:9]), but those who disregard it are punished (Rom3:17 [cf. Isa59:8-9]). Peace is a blessing of which God alone is the author (Job25:2; Psa147:14; Isa45:7). He, being the author of peace, is the only one who can bestow it upon the righteous (Gen15:15, upon Abraham; 2Ki22:20, upon Josiah; Psa37:37, upon the perfect man; Psa119:165, upon those who love God's law; Pro3:2, upon those who follow divine wisdom [cf. Jas3:18; Psa4:8; Job5:23; Isa32:17]). It is a gift which God desires to impart to all His people (Jer29:11), but which He is often unable to grant because of their sins (Sept.: Isa48:18; Jer4:10 [cf. Jer4:14]). There can be no peace to the wicked (Sept.: Isa57:19 [cf. Isa57:20-21; Isa48:22]). Those who hope for it, while continuing in their iniquity, are self-deceived (Sept.: Jer6:14; Jer8:15 [cf. Jer8:11; Eze13:10, Eze13:16]).
(VI) Peace is the paramount blessing that Israel was looking for in the messianic kingdom (Num25:12; Lev26:6; Isa54:10; Eze34:25; Eze37:26; Mal2:5-6). The messenger who brings tidings of the coming salvation is one who publishes peace (Isa52:7; Nah1:15). The Messiah Himself is the Prince of Peace (Isa9:6 [cf. Mic5:5; Zec6:13]). Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end (Isa9:7). See Psa29:11; Psa37:11; Psa72:3, Psa72:7, "In his days the righteous shall flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth"; Psa122:7; Isa54:13; Isa60:17; Isa66:12; Jer4:10; Jer6:14; Jer8:15; Jer14:13; Jer23:17; Jer28:9; Jer33:6; Hag2:9. The NT shares with the OT the view of peace as a characteristic of the messianic time (Luk1:79; Luk2:14; Luk19:38; Act10:36). The identification of the coming of the Lord Jesus with the coming of the Messiah is often what the disciples meant with their greetings on their missionary journeys (Mat10:13; Luk10:5-6). In His farewell words to His disciples, Jesus names peace as a gift to them from Himself (Joh14:27; Joh16:33, "My peace I give unto you . . . these things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace").
(VII) Characteristic of the NT is the view of peace as the present possession of the believer. In a single case it is used by Paul of that future blessedness which is to be expected by the righteous and the Parousía or Second Coming (Rom2:10), but in general it denotes the state of the Christian in this present life. It is so used by Jesus in His farewell promise, "My peace I give unto you" (John14:27). It is thus represented by Paul (Rom5:1; Rom8:6; Rom15:13; 2Th3:16; Col3:15), in which case peace acquires the technical meaning of the tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, fearing nothing from God and consequently content with its earthly lot, whatever it is. This is the direct result of redemption by Christ (Eph2:15, Eph2:17) and consists primarily of a state of conscious reconciliation with God (Rom5:1), although it is often used in a broader sense to denote all the blessings which accompany and flow from that reconciliation (Rom1:7; 1Co1:3; 2Th3:16).
(VIII) Words with which eirḗnē are associated in the NT are as follows: agápē (26), love (2Co13:11; Eph6:23, "Peace . . . and love with faith"); cháris (5485), grace (Rom1:7; 1Co1:3; 2Co1:2; Gal1:3; Eph1:2; Php1:2; Col1:2; 1Th1:1; 2Th1:2; 1Ti1:2; 2Ti1:2; Tit1:4; Phm1:3; 1Pe1:2; 2Pe1:2; 2Jn1:3; Rev1:4); dóxa (1391), glory, and timḗ (G5092), honor as the eschatological reward for working well (Rom2:10); dikaiosúnē (1343), righteousness; chará (5479), joy (Rom14:17); hope and joy (Rom15:13); peace and mercy (Gal6:16) aspháleia (G803), safety, security, as the opposite of eschatological peril (1Th5:3).
The NT concept of peace has nothing to do with the Stoic concept of apátheia (n.f.), indifference or apathy, and the Epicurean ataraxía (n.f.), selfish nondisturbance. The peace which God gives is never to be identified with selfish unconcern (cf. 1Co7:15; Php4:7; Col3:15). God's peace is independent of outside conditions and is the fruit of an objective, real salvation with God.
Yes, there is a ‘life improvement evangelism’ out there but we don’t throw out the baby with the bath water because there is. There is happiness i.e. peace, prosperity, reconciliation – a sense of purpose the Lord has for each person and people coming to Christ can enter that rest. By such we overcome toils and dreariness, persecutions, hardships. There are also honest to goodness real blessings as well too. However, selling these to persuade people to trust the Lord is disingenuous. Gabe was not doing this.
If Gabe was really doing this then, he’d be saying. “The Lord will give you a new color TV, a BMW car, new teeth, removes unwanted hair, make you a millionaire – only for only a small donation, he answer every desire cause all you got to do is rub the prayer jar, and the Jesus Genie appears! Just for You – You – You !!! "
There is also the opposite of ‘life improvement life is a bed of roses evangelism’ as well called: Hardtime evangelism" It tells people to come to Christ, be miserable, become dour and all stone marble faced, life will only get worse, the lion will get you, after coming to Christ…expect and receive only the worse and best thing that can happen to us is to die like Stephen or Polycarp! Not quite the best persuasion technique. Neither is ‘life improvement evangelism’ either.
I once was an atheist and saw thru the ‘ Life improvement Gospel’ – I am sure there were Christians who said of me, he’s just deliberately being ornery so have nothing to do with him. But I praise God that they did not ignore me. They took the time to plant gospel seeds within me. At times a few were harsh, others patient, but at all times they all made me think.
Looking back, I can see how God brought Christian people my way who did not write me off as hopeless. That left an impact upon me. I realize nowadays that is how evangelism works that truly saves. So if Kris is reading this, I’ve been tuff with him, other times okay, but I do not write him off because I comprehend how the power of God moves and works within the soul of man.
The sower sows the seed – the harvester harvests the crop. We each have a part in God’s divine plan.
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
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jlay
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Re: Purpose of prayer
The purpose of that post was not to rehash anything between Gabe and myself. As I had already mentioned earlier in the thread regarding his sincerity, which I by no means called into question.
The one consistency you will see in the uses of peace that you sight, is that it is to the believer. Not to the sinner. And further, the context of their usage in nearly every instance referenced does not confer an individual's hapiness, as we would understand it. Particularly in its use today.
Not anymore than the word love is understood when we say, "God is love," to an enemy of the gospel.
I obviously don't have time to go through every reference. "Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord."
It's very clear here that peace has nothing to do with an individual's personal, emotional state. This is a relational state. And in nearly every instance, peace is used as a relational word. How we relate to man. How we relate to God.
I'll quote Gabe here just to refer back to what sparked my reply. (Please Gabe, if you are reading, don't take this the wrong way. I don't mean this in any malicious way.)
The personal joy and peace of a believer are true. Things that I, and I'm sure many others here, cherish deeply. However, I do not believe they should ever be used as calling cards to the lost. Let's remember that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish.
The one consistency you will see in the uses of peace that you sight, is that it is to the believer. Not to the sinner. And further, the context of their usage in nearly every instance referenced does not confer an individual's hapiness, as we would understand it. Particularly in its use today.
Not anymore than the word love is understood when we say, "God is love," to an enemy of the gospel.
I obviously don't have time to go through every reference. "Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord."
It's very clear here that peace has nothing to do with an individual's personal, emotional state. This is a relational state. And in nearly every instance, peace is used as a relational word. How we relate to man. How we relate to God.
I'll quote Gabe here just to refer back to what sparked my reply. (Please Gabe, if you are reading, don't take this the wrong way. I don't mean this in any malicious way.)
When I read the words, "you will be happier," obviously that was a trigger in my mind, that produced my reply. I'd love to discuss the ins and outs of witnessing. The rights and wrongs. The do's and dont's. Again, not getting personal with Gabe. But the 'happiness' thing is something that is contrary to everything I believe regarding effective biblical witnessing. Some have applied themselves to this study. Some more than others. Like me, you've done street witnessing. You've spoken before crowds, and have had the great responsibility to represent God's word. Like me, you probably identify with how that fear has burdened you to prepare yourself to give a reason for the hope you have. I'll admit, I was frustrated by this phrasing. I'll admit, I was knee jerk and wrong to make the thread my personal spring board to express my opinion. And Nathaniel, or anyone else that I rubbed wrong, I do apologize. The words i shared however, i do believe.Once you take that step, and start a relationship with Him, you will be happier, you will be free, you will be clean, and it will help you understand things better too.
The personal joy and peace of a believer are true. Things that I, and I'm sure many others here, cherish deeply. However, I do not believe they should ever be used as calling cards to the lost. Let's remember that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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B. W.
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Re: Purpose of prayer
That is true but we must also understand that for the unsaved - they do see the salesman pitch involved in the life improvement gospel as well as the misery driven hardtime gospel. These do not negate the fact that there is a true happiness believers experience in Christ,: some find it sooner others a bit later.jlay wrote:...The personal joy and peace of a believer are true. Things that I, and I'm sure many others here, cherish deeply. However, I do not believe they should ever be used as calling cards to the lost. Let's remember that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish.
John 15:11- John 16:24 - 1 Peter 1:8 - 1 John 1:4...
The life improvement gospel appears to me to be more directed at Christians then the unsaved - much like how the latest weight lose fads sweep thru a congregation. The hard time gospel appears to me, from my own experience with it, fuel for excuses used to keep a person away from Christ.
On to another line concerning topic: Things go on in a person's life that create the conditions for one to call on the name of the Lord, when they thus call, they are unsaved, yet, God hears their prayer - Romans 10:12-14
John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
The means by which the Father draws explained
John 15:26, "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.”
Context continues in next chapter…
John 16:7-12, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. 12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.” NKJV
The question we have before us – do we really trust the Lord that he indeed draws or is it we who determine the drawing?
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
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jlay
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Re: Purpose of prayer
I think we can all agree of the establishment of Christian joy in the scripture. There really is no point in debating that. You see, that is not my contention. Not at all. However, I don't think we are going to agree with use the word happiness. There is joy. No doubt, amen. When we present the gospel as a means to enhance or improve one's life, we do a great disservice, IMO.
Further, please do not assume that my solution to the life improvement gospel is the hardtime gospel. The only solution to the life improvement gospel, or any incorrect gospel, is the TRUE gospel. Much harm has been done by both. In fact, I'll give you an example of a real alter call, to children of all people. After a fire and brimstone, scare fest, this is what the preacher said. "OK kids, if you don't want to go to Hell, then you need to get out of your seat and come to the alter right now!!" Can you believe that? Lord save us from your people.
You see the true gospel is the same for the person dying of cancer, as it is for the one who is healthy. It is the same for the person who will live in abject poverty the rest of their life, as it is for one who lives in wealth.
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." John 12:32
The context of John 15 is the teaching on the indwelling of the believer by the HS. Not reaching the lost, or being drawn to salvation.
Mark 16:15 To all creation.
Jesus spoke of the realities of Hell, the wrath of God, the and the utterly sinful nature of man. And He preached to crowds as well as spoke with individuals. He confronted the lady at the well head on with her sin. When Peter preached to the crowds, he certainly didn't consider who were scoffers, and who were ready to receive. He just preached the truth. And it was not a happiness message. He didn't mince words, and levied tough allegations. When Paul preached to the crowds, he didn't compare the benefits of believing in the real God, versus the false gods. He told them to abandon such worthless things. Is it any wonder that Christ was crucified, Peter jailed, and Paul stoned, ran out of town by angry mobs, and arrested.
The very sad think, IMO, is that we have misconstrued the commands to love our enemies. In that we (not intentionally) water down the harsh truth of the cross, and attempt to make the sinner more comfortable in their sin. Almost as if we want them to see how cool we are to hang out with, and how super awesome fantastic Jesus is. I know the intentions and sincerity of this are good. The methods and results are what so concern me.
Further, please do not assume that my solution to the life improvement gospel is the hardtime gospel. The only solution to the life improvement gospel, or any incorrect gospel, is the TRUE gospel. Much harm has been done by both. In fact, I'll give you an example of a real alter call, to children of all people. After a fire and brimstone, scare fest, this is what the preacher said. "OK kids, if you don't want to go to Hell, then you need to get out of your seat and come to the alter right now!!" Can you believe that? Lord save us from your people.
It is certainly directed at Christians, church goers, etc. But, it is also much used and taught as an evangelism tool. It is often used in ignorance. There are many Christians who are very 'happy' as you say in their Christian walk. They have seen God move, experienced life change, blessing, answered prayer, etc. etc. And, so it is not that unusual for a person witnessing to invokes such testimony into witnessing. "Look at what God has done for me, look at what He can do for you." It sounds fine on first hearing. But let me give you an example. Let's say you had the opportunity to make a gospel presentation to a group of 3,000 people. You had the stage, and you could say anything you want. What would your message be? For many, many years that message has been, "God loves you, and has a wonderful plan for your life." What you don't know, and what they don't know, is the date is Sept. 11, 2001, and these are the 3,000 people who died in the world trade center attacks. In fact, this model (God has a woderful plan) is taught all over the Christian community and has been used all over the world. It's inventor, Bill Bright, actually admitted to the regret of popularizing this model and not speaking more to the holiness of God, and the reality of sin, death and the judgment to come. Yet the model is still propagated, and has popularized decisionism here, and in the foreign mission field. This is why after mission based crusades, you can hardly find even a small % of those who made "decisions" under such methods. (Edit: this model has been modified in some uses today)The life improvement gospel appears to me to be more directed at Christians then the unsaved - much like how the latest weight lose fads sweep thru a congregation. The hard time gospel appears to me, from my own experience with it, fuel for excuses used to keep a person away from Christ.
You see the true gospel is the same for the person dying of cancer, as it is for the one who is healthy. It is the same for the person who will live in abject poverty the rest of their life, as it is for one who lives in wealth.
I'm not sure I agree with this interpretation. I would say this verse explains the drawing.John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
The means by which the Father draws explained
John 15:26, "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.”
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." John 12:32
The context of John 15 is the teaching on the indwelling of the believer by the HS. Not reaching the lost, or being drawn to salvation.
I'm not 100% sure as to why you feel this is a question relevant to the discussion at hand. I certainly I trust it. But we may disagree with what you are implying with the question. All are drawn, just as Jesus says. And we have the spirit in us that raised Him from the dead. We are to be his witnesses. We are to be laborers in the harvest, and we are to preach the gospel to who?The question we have before us – do we really trust the Lord that he indeed draws or is it we who determine the drawing?
Mark 16:15 To all creation.
Jesus spoke of the realities of Hell, the wrath of God, the and the utterly sinful nature of man. And He preached to crowds as well as spoke with individuals. He confronted the lady at the well head on with her sin. When Peter preached to the crowds, he certainly didn't consider who were scoffers, and who were ready to receive. He just preached the truth. And it was not a happiness message. He didn't mince words, and levied tough allegations. When Paul preached to the crowds, he didn't compare the benefits of believing in the real God, versus the false gods. He told them to abandon such worthless things. Is it any wonder that Christ was crucified, Peter jailed, and Paul stoned, ran out of town by angry mobs, and arrested.
The very sad think, IMO, is that we have misconstrued the commands to love our enemies. In that we (not intentionally) water down the harsh truth of the cross, and attempt to make the sinner more comfortable in their sin. Almost as if we want them to see how cool we are to hang out with, and how super awesome fantastic Jesus is. I know the intentions and sincerity of this are good. The methods and results are what so concern me.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Gabrielman
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Re: Purpose of prayer
zoegirl wrote:All of this over the word happiness?!?!?!?!?!?
Maybe, just maybe, in the future, instead of a long post detailing how wrong we are, you could simply ask for clarification!?? Amazingly enough we have known each other long enough to grant that. A simple post saying "what do you mean by happiness" would prevent these long back and forth and, let's face it, needless "you're wrong and I'm right" posts. Indeed, considering that all of us can point to suffering we have had in the present and in the past (Joblessness???, chronic debilitating illness ? ridicule for the faith, anyone?) it would seem rather obvious that most of us here can attest that the Christian life is not pollyanna sweetness and light that you seem to imply of his post.
So again, to make it clear, nobody here meant that the Christian life would be all sweetness and light. But it will bring joy.
Amen, and that is what I was getting at too! I think it would be good to note that the reason I did not use the word joy, is I did not believe that Kristoffer would fully understand that word from the Christian stand point. Had someone asked, I would have said, "I meant joy, however at the time the word happiness seemed better to use, given the situation." Furthermore I would have more than gladly answered Kristoffer if he had asked me what I had meant by happiness. Happy, as defined in the American Heritage Dictionary: 1. Characterized by good luck; fortunate. 2.Enjoying, showing, or marked by pleasure or Joy
Now this is why I used the word Happiness. Because it can mean joy, and it is easier a concept to grasp, especially for one who has not yet found Christ and does not fully understand our doctrines. But if that isn't good enough for anyone, well that really doesn't matter to me, as the point I was making is more important than that.
DannyM wrote:
So shoot me!
If you insist... Yes, no life improvement evangelism.B. W. wrote: I look over Gabe’s post and comments and he is not trying to push ‘life improvement evangelism’ here to kris. The context of Gabe’s post proves that to me. There is an internal sense of well being also called happiness that bible also defines as a peace that surpasses knowledge Philippians 4:7
Once I was trapped in a perpetual night, without even a star to light the sky. Now I stand in the glory of the Son, and not even a faint shadow of darkness remains.