Prayer to Saints

[jlay]

Catholicism's "gospel" is a gospel of works. The same as any other false doctrine or man-made religion.

Rick,
Just my two cents worth. Even though I would agree, I don't want to degrade this to a blanket statement like you just made. Those kind of statements result in no fruit. However, I don't mind a hardy debate on specific doctrines.

Also, having been in a bible study for many years with former RCCs and current RCCs, I've learned that there are born again RCCs. Not because they follow the systems or doctrines of the RCC, but because they have trusted in Jesus as the Christ. Of course most of the one's I meet are former RCCs because of the rejection of such doctrines. So, yes G, I have given some study to the matter, although I wouldn't claim to be an expert.

[August]

Folks, thanks for all the contributions.

I realize that it is tough to discuss the specific topic of prayers to saints without putting it into the context of the overall RC theology, but I do want to focus more on the specific topic, and not generalizations around Roman Catholicism.

I think that the one general assumption that all non-RC's accept, and which is a wrong presupposition from an RC standpoint, is that we always look for Scriptural proof of RC theology. That is not necessary in RC theology, as the RC church regards tradition as being on an equal footing with Scripture. Asking for intercession through those canonized throughout the history of the RC church is part of that tradition, and is therefore viewed as good and valid theology.

Arguing that there is no Scriptural validation is therefore not valid unless Sola Scripture is a given. The question then, in my mind, is what takes precedence in areas of inconsistency (Scripture or tradition?) and for me, this prayer to dead saints seems to be one of those areas of contradiction.

[jlay]

August,
Nothing personal, but I call that, moving the goal post.

Saying that we, "can't say their is no scriptural proof because the RCC views tradition as equal to scripture," comes across as manipulative, IMHO. I am well aware of how the RCC views the traditions. I have no problem with traditions, until they stand in opposition to the scripture itself. And in the scripture we are givin clear examples of how to pray, and clear warning to not commune with the dead.

That would only evoke another argument in which I would say, "They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." Of course I am already familiar the context, audience and with the RCC rebuttal to this as well.

Asking for intercession through those canonized throughout the history of the RC church is part of that tradition, and is therefore viewed as good and valid theology.

It is very sad, IMO, that one has to rely on such a manipulative argument to cling to those traditions.

[zoegirl]

I interpreted that as merely talking about *how* to debate someone about RCC doctrines. In other words, saying "show me scripture, there is not scripture" does not have that same argumentative impact to the person who doesn't need it to be from scripture. It's a fundamental difference to what we believe is infallible.

I have always been curious about the question of praying to saints, simply because personally I don't understand the need. Is it because they feel that the saints have some element of power? Jesus's ear? That He doesn't necessarily listen to us but they can change HIs mind? (I'm not trying to be flippant, truly). If they have no power, then why even do it?

See, I can understand the idea of praying to saints similar to asking someone in the your church, IF you also understand that you are to pray to Christ as well, asking Him.

[zoegirl]

To elaborate...looking back to the OP, this type of supplication seems to infer that we can't go to Jesus, that we alone are not worthy (I'm saying that's how I am reading the prayer) to ask Christ directly. Otherwise, why even bother?

[jlay]

Zoe, I don't think it would reasonable for me to concern myself with whether it is has any argumentive impact. That certainly may be their position. But I am not going to dignify what I see as another fallacy, which is that of holding traditions in equal regard as scripture. To concede such would be error on my part. I see this whole thing as trying to reconstruct the question to avoid the obvious conclusions.

It's like me saying, I hold my opinon in the same regard as a mathmatics textbook. So, if my answer is different from what the text says is right or wrong, then I can simply defer to the fact that I hold the two in the same authority, and go with my opinion. It's a man made loop hole. It's preposterous. There has to be a good philosophical critique of such a thing.

Sadly, I have seen many a twisting of scripture to attempt to defend this doctrine. Such as one RCC who refers to the great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 11. He says, 'they are deadd, and yet they witness.' Of course they witness. To us. "Since WE are surrounded...." Their faith was witness to us. And yet, he actually tried to use this scripture as a defense of prayers to the saints.

[Byblos]

I truly wish I had the time to respond to all of this but I am in the middle of preparation for a 2 week business trip (leaving on Sunday). I only ask that you bear with me until I get back and I will attempt to address all the points brought up. As you can all imagine, being the only Catholic on this cite (except perhaps for Cet-to maybe? I don't know) and a long time member of other non-catholic sites, I've come across these types of questions a lot. And almost always the bottom line ends up to be one of authority. August, you and I had this discussion many times and if you recall it has always been my position. You cannot talk about prayers to the Saints (I hate that term, really, we do not pray TO them) without talking about Tradition, and you can't talk about Tradition without talking about scripture, you can't talk about scripture unless you talk about who defined what scripture is (and who changed it and when), and to arrive at all of that you need to talk about authority. Under who's authority was it that all of this was done. But I realize that this topic is not broad enough to encompass all of these so when I come back I will stick with the subject of praying to the Saints.

Jlay,

The reason I answered 'none' to the question of how many 'dead' saints we pray 'to' is that no Catholic believes the saints are dead. But as I said, I will address your points when I get back, if only in an effort to clarify positions. We all know no one is going to change anyone else's mind here.

As to the charge that Catholicism is a works-based religion, I have to say that is one of most misconceptions about catholicism I have every seen. As a Catholic I vehemently disagree with it.

So for now, the bottom line is we believe the saints are as much alive in Christ as we are. We believe it is the church that was authorized by Christ himself that can know authoritatively who is a 'saint'. We believe that asking for the saints' intercession is the same thing as asking our fellow Christians here on earth to pray for us. As to the charge why we address our requests to the saints and not to Christ, the answer is for the same reason you ask your fellow Christians to pray for you. If intercessory prayer is ineffective then why do you ask for it? Why not just individual prayers to Christ and be done with it? I challenge anyone to go back to the OP and find anything, ANYTHING in that prayer request that is not intercessory in nature or that it asks anything in other than the name of Christ or God. There simply isn't. So the only objection here is the fact the saint is physically dead, and that's where we need to concentrate the discussion.

For a very busy person I've said a ton. I really have to go but one more thing, to all my fellow mods, I have no issue whatsoever with Jlay, RickD, or anyone else attacking Catholic doctrine, labeling it unbiblical, from the devil, or whatever other choice words they have. I have no doubt, however, that we can conduct this discussion in a spirit of love and respect.

Blessings to all and see you soon.

[BavarianWheels]

The reason I answered 'none' to the question of how many 'dead' saints we pray 'to' is that no Catholic believes the saints are dead.
--So the only objection here is the fact the saint is physically dead, and that's where we need to concentrate the discussion.

I will have to agree at this point. Most Christianity (except very few 'isms, including SDA) believes no person really dies, but that "death" becomes/is the point of meeting Christ and receiving the reward of heaven...or prior to Christ, Abe's Busom. So no Catholic really prays to anyone dead.

I look forward to you coming back, Byblos. I think you and I touched on this a while back also.
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[sinnerbybirth]

But what about soul................never mind.

[jlay]

Byblos.
I'm well aware of all the positions that you mention. But thanks for sharing for anyone else who might be reading the thread.

[zoegirl]

But what about soul................never mind.

d'oh!

[Gman]

G,
My post is nothing more than an attack on a false doctrine. The one you quote is NOT addressed to any person, but to a doctrinal position, as referenced to the website in the post.

You stated, "This doctrine is a lie, and sad that so many refuse repent of it." So you did attack him as a person..

I challenge you to disprove one fact I provided. I laid out the points of my argument to Byblos. You are welcome to point out where I am 'attacking.' My post was concise and scripturally supported.
This is exactly one of the problems on this board. I suggest the mods get together and I figure out the difference in an attack on a position vs. a person. Is it alright for you and others to say positions are wrong in regards to evolution, age of the earth, mormonism, etc,?

It IS a personal attack for you to say, "It's obvious you haven't studied Catholicism much"

I use to go to Catholic school so I know a bit about the practices of the Catholic faith. That is why I made my claim.. There are many things perhaps you should understand before you make accusations.. That is all I'm saying. Byblos can handle it just fine imo..

[RickD]

As to the charge that Catholicism is a works-based religion, I have to say that is one of most misconceptions about catholicism I have every seen. As a Catholic I vehemently disagree with it.

Byblos, this article talks about the same things that every Catholic church I've been to believes. My wife was catholic, 2 of her brothers were Catholic. The Catholic church that God delivered them from was works based. Maybe your Catholic church is different than any I have known. Maybe yours isn't faith plus works based for salvation.http://www.gotquestions.org/catholicism.html

[zoegirl]

Byblos, when I read this this is what I hear....I will go through the prayer and show you where I don't see the similarities to simply asking a friend to pray for me.

Novena To St. Peregrine

Glorious wonder-worker, St. Peregrine, you answered the divine call with a ready spirit, and forsook all the comforts of a life of ease and all the empty honors of the world to dedicate yourself to God in the Order of His holy Mother.

You labored manfully for the salvation of souls. In union with Jesus crucified, you endured painful sufferings with such patience as to deserve to be healed miraculously of an incurable cancer in your leg by a touch of His divine hand.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone say to someone they want to pray for them: "Oh glorious friend"...to me me this seem offering praises and lifting them up to a higher place than simply a fellow Christian who is praying for you. I don't mind the description and the honoring of her....it's nice to recognize a faithful servant....I'm not a fan of the "glorious"...unless we start calling each other "glorious"... it seems that she is "sepcial"

Obtain for ***** the grace to answer every call of God and to fulfill His will in all the events of life. Enkindle in my heart a consuming zeal for the salvation of all men.

Obtain for me? That sounds an awfully similar to addressing someone who has the power to obtain it. I would never ask someone to pray for me with the idea that they could obtain it for me. To me, this sounds again like we are lifting someone up to a higher power, as if God has assigned them distribution of that particular gift.

Deliver her from the infirmities that afflict *****'s body.

Not "please ask for deliverance from her iniquities from Christ"....but [you] "deliver her"...this may seem like quibbling but to me this seems like a direct request that this saint do something herself, not that she seek Christ in prayer.

Obtain for her also a perfect resignation to the sufferings it may please God to send her, so that, imitating our crucified Savior and His sorrowful Mother, she may merit eternal glory in heaven.

again, obtain for her, not ask Christ to give her. If I were to ask someone to pray for me, I am not asking for themselves to obtain it for me....I am asking them to directly communicate to Jesus WITH me.

St. Peregrine, pray for Linda and for all who invoke your aid.

Prayer to Saint Peregrine

O great St. Peregrine, you have been called "The Mighty," "The Wonder-Worker," because of the numerous miracles which you have obtained from God for those who have had recourse to you. For so many years you bore in your own flesh this cancerous disease that destroys the very fibre of our being, and who had recourse to the source of all grace when the power of man could do no more. You were favoured with the vision of Jesus coming down from His Cross to heal your affliction. Ask of God and Our Lady, the cure of the sick whom we entrust to you.

Now this last line is the only similarity I find to asking a close friend to pray for me. The rest I find rather unsettling, giving too much power to a fellow believer in Christ. And again, why the need to ask a saint to "obtain for her"? Why place others in between Christ and myself? It seems to me that it would be an easy thing to change the tone of these prayers to better reflect the idea that this is simply asking a fellow Christian to pray for us. Otherwise it comes off that God has assigned a task to these saints and they have a direct line to Him, able to change and persuade Him.

Thanks for discussing this, Byblos.

[RickD]

Ask of God and Our Lady, the cure of the sick whom we entrust to you.

What's wrong with this picture? Mary, the mother of the Man Jesus, has the power to heal just like God? Doesn't anyone see anything wrong with this?

You stated, "This doctrine is a lie, and sad that so many refuse repent of it." So you did attack him as a person..

I don't see that so much as a personal attack. But, how would they repent of it if they didn't know it was a lie? Many people are in this religion until the Lord opens their eyes.