Prayer to Saints

[B. W.]

Question:

Instead of asking saints to interceed for us what about rephrasing the question - can angels interceed for us if we ask them?

Never much thought about this or even bothered with this idea but it crossed my mind - just now.

Another question for rambling discussion - So what are the roles of angels?
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[jlay]

G,
The (fill in the blank) doctrine of mormonism is a lie. it is sad that so many refuse to repent of it.

I doubt I'd get the same response. But no problem. I'll try to be a little more careful how I phrase things if it will help.
Peace.

Also, I would rather you not assume that am lacking understanding in these areas. If I am, then it is my desire to be enlightened. I'm all ears.

The reason I answered 'none' to the question of how many 'dead' saints we pray 'to' is that no Catholic believes the saints are dead.
--So the only objection here is the fact the saint is physically dead, and that's where we need to concentrate the discussion.

this is just a matter of symantics. Obviously as hinted, there are going to be various postions on where the 'saint' is after physical death. For the discussion let's just stick to the common use of the word dead, which is physical death. I know the RCC's position on papal lineage, sainthood, etc. The whole matter can go in a number of tangents. That why it is best to focus on the authority of scripture. Traditions have been dropped, added, ammended, etc. The scripture is unchanged. And, it is the ONLY common ground we will find, I assure you.

[JamesScott]

I had alot of trouble with this when I was a Baptist Christian. And my Protestant family seems to ask me about this sometimes, too. This is an Orthodox Christian's perspective, but I think the RCC may agree on some points, as well...


We praise the Saints because they have cooperated with the Grace of God so that they have become holy, and God truly dwells in them. They are in full Communion with God, and are fully submitted to Him. They are what we hope to become, and what we are called to become.
And note that prayer or praise is different from worship. Worship is due to the Blessed Trinity alone.

Finally, in any prayers we offer to the Saints, we are ultimately asking them to pray for us as any brother or sister on earth would pray for us. We do not believe they are dead, but alive in Christ as Christ has defeated death, therefore their prayers are effective. And because they are fully saved and holy, and stand before the face of the Lord Himself, their prayers are good and unselfish.


We don't pray to Saints because we think we can't go to God directly, or because we think they are equal to Jesus, or because we're superstitious, or anything like that.

[CeT-To]

1 Timothy 2:5
Hebrews 9:15
Hebrews 12:24
These arent all the sources where it just says Jesus as mediator intercessor.
Well not to be fast on conclusion but i think that should settle on the mediator, intercessor part of this discussion. But there is still the question about angels bringing forth human cases to God sooo hmmm anybody can explain anythin about that? I guess there was no covenant with the people back then...just like Moses was the intercessor or mediator for the people of the old testament and Jesus our Lord in the new testament, the people before the mosiac covenant had the angels that would bring their cases to The Almighty.

[jlay]

JS,
Welcome and thanks for your feedback.

I am well aware of these positions, although I appreciate you stating them if it helps clear up any misconceptions for others.

First: We would not agree in how you are defining saints.
2ndly: I would not have any contention on asking a saint (a beleiver) to pray for you. However, once they die (physically) there is no basis to believe that they are any longer able to hear us.
3rd: I would not equate requesting prayer from a living (physically here on earth) believer to asking a dead (physically) person to intercede.

We don't pray to Saints because we think we can't go to God directly, or because we think they are equal to Jesus, or because we're superstitious, or anything like that.

I know why you do it. Because you believe it. It's a tradition of the RCC that you accept. Just as I do not accept it, and find it to be contrary to the scripture. I don't care how long it has been done. The age of something does not determine its rightness. I don't care that the RCC ordains it. It has been proven time and time again that the RCC has ordained things that are wrong.

And note that prayer or praise is different from worship. Worship is due to the Blessed Trinity alone.

Zoe already sited a good example regarding prayers to Mary. You can try and redefine worship, but it doesn't cut it with me. When you start placing positional authority on sinners saved by grace, (which is what a saint is, btw) you are flirting with idolatry.

I have no doubt that all the saved who have died (physically) will stand holy before the Lord. Not because some religious institution deemed them worthy, but only because of the blood of Jesus Christ has made them fit to do so. However there is no reason to believe that they are at all involved in being able to hear us.

[Phantom]

http://forums.catholic.com/

I believe this site should answer your questions..... if not, just ask the members there yourself

[JamesScott]

jlay,

JS, welcome and thanks for your feed back.

Thank you, and you're welcome.

I am well aware of these positions, although I appreciate you stating them if it helps clear up any misconceptions for others.

No problem.

We would not agree in how you are defining saints.

I'm not sure we would disagree...

I would not have any contention on asking a saint (a beleiver) to pray for you. However, once they die (physically) there is no basis to believe that they are any longer able to hear us.

If Christ has defeated death, and they abide in Him, there is no reason to think death is a barrier between them and us.

I would not equate requesting prayer from a living (physically here on earth) believer to asking a dead (physically) person to intercede.

I would. Although, the prayers of the glorified saints are more effectice than ours because they are fully and completely holy and righteous; and as we know, the prayers of a righteous man avails much {St. James 5:16}

I know why you do it. Because you believe it. It's a tradition of the RCC that you accept.

No. It is Tradition that we have in common. This practice was done long before the East-West Schism of 1054.

Just as I do not accept it, and find it to be contrary to the scripture.

I have never found any real evidence that shows this practice as being contrary to the Holy Scriptures; and I was Baptist, so I certainly looked...

You said: The age of something does not determine its rightness.

I absolutely agree.

You said: It has been proven time and time again that the RCC has ordained things that are wrong.

I have nothing to do with the RCC. I don't believe anything because the RCC teaches it. There are teachings within the RCC we Orthodox flat-out reject.

You said: You can try and redefine worship, but it doesn't cut it with me.

We are not redefining it. Prayer has never been the same as worship.

You said: When you start placing positional authority on sinners saved by grace, (which is what a saint is, btw)

I know. We have no disagreement on what a saint is.

You said: you are flirting with idolatry.

There is no confusion with Who God is, and who His Saints are. We know the Saints are not equal to Jesus or even close to being equal to Jesus. So then, how are we flirting with idolatry?