Question about whether or not God has a Will for your life..

[DannyM]

danny, this link gives an overview of the word-faith movement. Another similar movement is the "prosperity gospel" or, "name-it-and-claim-it gospel"http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html

Thanks Rick. I'll have a read now.

[DannyM]

"The Word-Faith Teachers. This is the group that would seek to convince us that Jesus and His disciples were rich, that to be poor is a sin, to be sick is a sin, and that faith is a creative force that we can use to shape our world just like God supposedly created this world and universe that we live in through His "faith"! Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, John Avanzini, Robert Tilton, Fred Price, and Benny Hinn (who at the time of this writing has authored the number 1 best selling Christian book in America, 'Good Morning, Holy Spirit') are just a few that spew out this theological vomit." Copeland is one of the fathers of the Toronto/Brownsville "counterfeit" revival movement."

Before I go on, and if Derrick will overlook this diversion, is the above for real? And how on earth does this group people come up with the title, 'word-faith movement' and why do we go along with granting a reasonable sounding title to such palpable nonsense? I should read on.

[RickD]

"The Word-Faith Teachers. This is the group that would seek to convince us that Jesus and His disciples were rich, that to be poor is a sin, to be sick is a sin, and that faith is a creative force that we can use to shape our world just like God supposedly created this world and universe that we live in through His "faith"! Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, John Avanzini, Robert Tilton, Fred Price, and Benny Hinn (who at the time of this writing has authored the number 1 best selling Christian book in America, 'Good Morning, Holy Spirit') are just a few that spew out this theological vomit." Copeland is one of the fathers of the Toronto/Brownsville "counterfeit" revival movement."

Before I go on, and if Derrick will overlook this diversion, is the above for real? And how on earth does this group people come up with the title, 'word-faith movement' and why do we go along with granting a reasonable sounding title to such palpable nonsense? I should read on.

Danny, you're analysis is pretty accurate on the word-faith movement imo. What I have found is that if any obstacle happens in our lives, if we have enough "faith", God will do our bidding for us. Almost like God is some sort of genie that we can manipulate. Seemingly bad things happen to all believers because Romans 8:28 is true. If we pray for something that is not God's will, we may not get what we ask. Not because we don't have enough "faith", but because God, in His infinite wisdom, doesn't think it's best for us, according to His will. I'm not sure the leaders in the word-faith movement gave themselves the title of word-faith. It seems to come from their philosophy of hearing the word, and acting by their version of "faith" to get what one wants from God. Many of these word-faith/prosperity gospel teachers use their teachings to manipulate their followers, to take their money. As for staying on topic, I absolutely believe that God has a will for my life. He says just that in Philippians 1:6.

[RickD]

Danny, I didn't mean to imply that you aren't a "real" Danny when I didn't use CAPS in you're name here:

danny, this link gives an overview of the word-faith movement. Another similar movement is the "prosperity gospel" or, "name-it-and-claim-it gospel"http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html

It was just a typo on my part.

[jlay]

Yes, God has a plan for each one us. He says so Himself in Jeremiah 29:11. Each of us is set in a specific time and place in history not by chance, but by Divine Providence. That said, the Lord also promises that He will bless our plans and give us our heart's desires if we take delight in Him (preferring His will over ours) (Psalm 37:4-5; Proverbs 16:1-2, 3-4), but He cannot do so if we do not plan at all. The Lord allows us to choose our destiny (Deuteronomy 30:15, 16, 17, 18, 19) and in our doing so He will guide us (Proverbs 16:9), and will work around our mistakes and shortcomings to accomplish His will (Romans 8:28).

Hope that helped.

Samuel, not to disagree. But Jeremiah is a specific verse to a specific people. That verse is for Israel.

Danny, I understand you are bent out of shape because of what I am accusing. The question is are you upset because I am right or because I am wrong. FWIW, I am not emotional about the issue. I see what you posted an unjust. I asked you if you saw that you took the quote out of context. Yes or no? Have you gone back and read Gabes post in the context? If so, then how do you defend the conclusions you have drawn?
If it was truly an accident that you quoted Gabe out of context, then I do apologize. But, based on your last post, it still seems that you are intent on understanding Gabe in the way you quoted him and not in the context of what he said. Further, you once again unjustly accuse by taking something out of context.

So God is basically a bad planner?

Danny, I'm sorry, but this is just getting ridiculous.

Because of that, we fail God in some way and we fail to succeed in His plan for us.

Who fails? WE DO.


Does God predetermine our every move when we yield and obey the Holy Spirit?
Eph. 2:10

[ChrisB]

Are you sure that the promises in Jeremiah 29:11 are for all believers and not just for the ancient Jewish people as the verse seems to show when it is taken into context with the rest of the chapter starting in 29:1 ? It's not really a good thing to cherry pick verses to support a particular agenda, this is what the word of faith people and others like them do. I think it's very important to take each verse in their proper context and go from there.

Yes but remember at the time of Jeremiah the Jewish people were the only people who belonged to Him, His chosen people. Now think of the apostles... the Lord clearly had a will for each of their lives in preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles and their becoming children of God through faith in Christ. Do parents have a will for their children? Of course they do, they love their children and want only the best for them, so how much more our Father for our well being? He wants us to prosper, to grow and learn from our experiences and to trust Him. He has a will for unbelievers in that He wants them to repent and be saved so that they may live (2 Peter 3:9), but they have to make the choice to accept Him. In our keeping His commandments and loving our neighbors as ourselves, we can help them in making that choice. If He has a will for unbelievers, then why not also for those who are His?

[jlay]

Sorry Sam, but I have to agree with Danny on this. I know a lot of people are in the habit of grabbing this verse out of context. In fact, at one time, I did the same thing. Particularly the word of faith crowd. Not saying you are one of them, or like them.
Israel is still that people. Although that program is on hold for the moment. The church did not replace Israel, or become Israel.

[BavarianWheels]

Samuel, not to disagree. But Jeremiah is a specific verse to a specific people. That verse is for Israel.

Did the NT exist in NT days? I don't think so. In fact, the "OT" was the only scripture in existence.
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[B. W.]

I tend to currently agree with your view Danny which is similar to Greg Kokul's view, and I also think that many other apologists are catching onto it as well. But as far as in most local churches and in mainstream Christianity (where there way too much emotionalism and confusion of doctrine) they still hold to this view that God somehow specifically selects the right job, spouse, home, car and so on for each person, and if they pray hard enough or in a certain way and are gifted with the ability to hear God's calling then they are able to receive God's perfect will. Which to me, doesn't jive well with my own personal experience. I guess I don't have the ability to sense God like some people can (or to be more frank and honest, I think a lot of people's 'God experiences' are self-induced from random emotions and sensations). But it's also interesting to note that many people like this, in addition, don't have much knowledge of Christian inteliectualism and apologetics. But as for the ones that do, those are the ones I"m willing to talk to and see if they can help bridge the gap between solid Christian doctrine, Christian intellectualism, and true, solid God/person contact.

This brings up an interesting point - what about Grace?

In BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) last night we began this years study in Isaiah. One point made during the lecture segment was how the Israel and Judah both became too works oriented n attainment of God's favor and blessings, then went on to spend these blessing on pagan Idol's in service to them as well. So when I read in the above quoted post, and if they pray hard enough or in a certain way and are gifted with the ability to hear God's calling then they are able to receive God's perfect will, I could not help but think of what was brought out in the Fort Collins, CO local BSF group least night and adding to it:

Ancient Israel and Judah in Isaiah’s time blended pagan Idols into the Temple worship, as well went off to serve the pagan statues with associated rites. We may not do this nowadays but we do have new Idols in our hearts we serve that are just as bad.

Are we guilty of the same, misappropriating God's gifts, blessings, callings to serve the idols of selfish desire, gain, mind, our own ends, etc: whatever these new idols are?
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Forgive me, but what has this to do with the post you quoted, B.W.?

I was thinking how well meaning Christians missuse bible promises based upon self justified selfishness. For example, pray hard enough, confess long enough, etc to gain God's perfect will or blessings. So the question that came to mind was - What about Grace in these matters?
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[jlay]

Wheels:
What does that have to do with the context and application of Jer 29:11? Nothing as far as I can see.

But, actually most (actually all) of the NT did exist in NT times. Considering that ALL of the NT was penned by contemporaries and eye witnesses.You do understand the difference in the church and Israel do you not?

[BavarianWheels]

Wheels:
What does that have to do with the context and application of Jer 29:11? Nothing as far as I can see.

To remove the validity of the OT in "NT" times is to remove meaning in Christ's words on scripture which it seems you separate as for Israel only.

But, actually most (actually all) of the NT did exist in NT times. Considering that ALL of the NT was penned by contemporaries and eye witnesses.You do understand the difference in the church and Israel do you not?

I don't separate "the church" and Israel. They are one in the same. Romans 10: 11,12
But this would hijack this thread.
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[jlay]

To remove the validity of the OT in "NT" times is to remove meaning in Christ's words on scripture which it seems you separate as for Israel only.

Validity? Wheels, come on, that is not what I am doing. We are told to RIGHTLY divide the word of truth.

Jer 29:11 is written for a specific people at a specific time. Perhaps you'd like to examine the text and explain how you think it is universally applicable to the Christian church. I wonder if you have taken the time to go back and read Jer. 29 before you replied.
The audience is clearly stated. "This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: "Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. 6 Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. 7 Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the LORD for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper." 8 Yes, this is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "Do not let the prophets and diviners among you deceive you. Do not listen to the dreams you encourage them to have. 9 They are prophesying lies to you in my name. I have not sent them," declares the LORD.
10 This is what the LORD says: "When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place.
I would really like you to carefully examine the versus that proceed v. 11 and tell me if this verse is written to a specific people, for a specific reason, for a specific time.

don't separate "the church" and Israel. They are one in the same. Romans 10: 11,12
But this would hijack this thread.

Too late. Exactly, read Romans 10. There is a caveat. What is the context, subject and issue at hand in Romans 10? Is it SALVATION. Paul is speaking about the Jews who are rejecting their personal salvation in Christ. It is absolutely true, that everyone is personally saved in exactly the same way. No difference. Faith in Christ. Trying to take these versus and equate that to a specific verse for a specific people at a specific time is not rightly dividing the word. Just as it would be wrong to start following the Levitical laws of Israel.

They are most definately NOT one in the same. I am puzzled at how you would arrive at that.

All scripture is God breathed and useful. That does not mean it is to be followed by the gentile. Particularly in regards to the covenants and promises between God and Israel.

[ChrisB]

Sorry Sam, but I have to agree with Danny on this. I know a lot of people are in the habit of grabbing this verse out of context. In fact, at one time, I did the same thing. Particularly the word of faith crowd. Not saying you are one of them, or like them.
Israel is still that people. Although that program is on hold for the moment. The church did not replace Israel, or become Israel.

Sorry if I implied that last bit, because the Church did not replace Israel. I'm just saying that through Christ's redemptive work He changed the rulebook and incorperated the Gentiles who believe in Him into His sphere of blessing, counting them as children of God (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1-2). Because the Church is Christ's Bride and Body, how and where then does the Church fit into all this if only Israel is still His chosen people (I know that the covenants and blessings promised to Abraham apply only to Israel, but if Israel alone is chosen then does Israel have a kind of preeminence over the Church based solely on that, or are they both counted as equal?). Does the new covenant superceed the old ones?

[DannyM]

Danny, I understand you are bent out of shape because of what I am accusing. The question is are you upset because I am right or because I am wrong. FWIW, I am not emotional about the issue. I see what you posted an unjust. I asked you if you saw that you took the quote out of context. Yes or no? Have you gone back and read Gabes post in the context? If so, then how do you defend the conclusions you have drawn?
If it was truly an accident that you quoted Gabe out of context, then I do apologize. But, based on your last post, it still seems that you are intent on understanding Gabe in the way you quoted him and not in the context of what he said. Further, you once again unjustly accuse by taking something out of context.

J, I'm not bent in any way, I'm just genuinely perplexed at your line of questioning. I'm a little busy right now, but go back to my OP and all I do is disagree with Gab over "God's plan for every part of our lives," to paraphrase Gab. Now from that point forward my posts were just my own musings on the subject and not some intense debate with Gabrielman. Yes, I've understood Gab's posting very well. I'm at a loss as to what to say to you next.

So God is basically a bad planner?

Danny, I'm sorry, but this is just getting ridiculous.

Because of that, we fail God in some way and we fail

Of course we fail God and we fail ourselves. But we do not fail some predetermined event in our lives which God had earmarked for us. Pick any event you want.

Does God predetermine our every move when we yield and obey the Holy Spirit?
Eph. 2:10

No. The actual word here - προετοιμάζω proetoimazō - is rendered "had afore prepared." It involves the idea of a previous. The previous preparation here referred to is the divine intention.

[jlay]

Danny,

I think I can clear this up. At least I hope. If you read Gabe's original post it might just be a matter of poor English.
God has a plan on everyone's life, and every little thing you do, that you feel lead by the Holy Spirit to do, is part of that plan.
Let me correct the punctuation and see if this clears it up. I have a degree in journalism, so I tend to self-edit when reading and assume others do the same.
God has a plan on everyone's life. And every little thing you do that you feel lead by the Holy spirit to do is part of that plan.

Maybe this clears it up, maybe not. I simply made a case based on the content of the thread. I think I've given a very good explanation as to why? Obviously I saw your comments as taking a poster out of context, and accusing them of saying something they did not intend. Perhaps you misread, I don't know. But I'm not trying to pick a fight. Does making comments about the Springer show bring peace or stir the pot?

What i said next was in reply to what you said here;

But to clarify my thoughts. Gab is saying that God "has a plan on everyone's life, and every little thing you do, that you feel led by the Holy Spirit to do, is part of that plan." Gab then goes on to speak of us may or may not fulfilling this plan on every minute piece of our lives. So God is basically a bad planner? We have a predetermining God who can't even predetermine correctly. I think the idea falls right there.

Gabe NEVER used the word predetermined. You did. Gabe said planned. And in relation to where we are lead by the Holy Spirit. You are stating that Gabe's position makes God out to be a bad planner. I do not see that. Not at all.
If you want to get the right answer you have to start with the right question. And if your initial reading was in error, for whatever reason, then the following assumptions will be wrong. My point wasn't to pick a fight or be argumentative, but to speak out against something that I saw as glaringly wrong. Now, I conceed, that you may very well has misread or misunderstood. I don't see anything in the context of what Gabe stated that implies that God predetermines every single thing we do. Nor, do I see that Gabe mentioning the failures of man to walk in God's prepared way, as a failing of God.

No. The actual word here - προετοιμάζω proetoimazō - is rendered "had afore prepared." It involves the idea of a previous. The previous preparation here referred to is the divine intention.

I admit I was careless in using the word predetermined. Gabe actually never used that word, nor did I. You did, and I made the mistake of using it. Gabe used the word, planned, which is the correct word relating to Eph 2:10. Hopefully we won't have to debate the use of pre-planned versus prepared.

Peace