Meaning and purpose to Atheists...

[jlay]

They realize that a woman is more than an incubator for a baby. Abortion is legal in every developed Western nation. Over 95% of all nations allow abortions.

now there is a scary thought. Polls and stats now determine right and wrong.


Rape: I'm curious just how many abortions you think occur because of rape?
But here is a question. Why is the child punished for the crimes of the Father? Does that make sense?
I can give you some examples of some pretty important people who were the product of rape.

You are unwilling to acknowledge that.

Sorry, but a lot of your answers sound heartless. You say your position is well thought out and considered. Would you be willing to watch a sonogram of an abortion?

So on the issue of abortion, where would our efforts be be best placed?

Wheels,
I think our best efforts should be multi-faceted. Outlawing abortion would certainly save lives. It's hard to argue with that. Is that the end. Of course not. Spreading the gospel of salvation and gospel of holiness is the ultimate goal.

[RickD]

I don't want women to have abortions. I think that education, and contraception are the keys to this, not the law.

Amen, brother!

I'm glad to see that someone understands that the problem is not solved by law. Make abortion as illegal as you want, the problem still exists...and to no less a degree. The fight for ending abortion is not in law...I wish everyone all up in arms about it would see this. This fight for more law is so ironic, btw.

As mentioned in another thread on this issue, I'm a Christian that is Pro-Choice.

Your are correct. We could never irradicate abortion by making it illegal. Just as you can not irradicate theft, murder, and myriad of other crimes by passing a law.

So on the issue of abortion, where would our efforts be be best placed?
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Bav, while I agree with most of what you said, do you really think that if abortion was illegal, it would still happen as much as it does now?

Make abortion as illegal as you want, the problem still exists...and to no less a degree.

If it were illegal, doctors would be prosecuted for performing abortions. That probably wouldn't stop all doctors from killing babies, but I think that most wouldn't want to risk the consequences. Any doctor who performs an abortion, imo, is doing it for money. Doctors know it is a baby they are killing. They have no excuse. Many mothers are told that it really isn't a baby. It's just tissue. It's not human "yet".

[BavarianWheels]

But here is a question. Why is the child punished for the crimes of the Father? Does that make sense?

I suppose God may seem to not make sense either.

5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

Wheels,
I think our best efforts should be multi-faceted. Outlawing abortion would certainly save lives. It's hard to argue with that. Is that the end. Of course not. Spreading the gospel of salvation and gospel of holiness is the ultimate goal.

Possibly a few. But prior to and outside of religious reasons, education on the matter is the best combatant...not law. Our efforts are wasted, I believe, on pushing and pushing, arguing and arguing about making it law.

Bav, while I agree with most of what you said, do you really think that if abortion was illegal, it would still happen as much as it does now?

...and to a very ugly degree.
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[humblesmurph]

humblesmurph wrote:

In the broader sense, zoegirl and you are arguing that the state should force a woman to fulfill a particular obligation with her body, to wit, taking a fertilized egg to term. That is the forcing I am talking about.

I fail to see how making an act illegal(abortion) "forces" a woman to "fulfill a particular obligation with her body, to wit, taking a fertilized egg to term." Rape, murder, speeding, going through red lights, are all illegal. Is anyone forced to comply with those laws? If abortion was made illegal, would anyone be forced to comply with this law?

You are entitled to your opinion regarding the legality of a woman's right to choose.

The issue isn't if a woman has the right to choose. She along with the man, do have a right to choose. Choose not to commit the act that may lead to a pregnancy. Didn't the slave owners have a "right" to own property(slaves)? Most of us realize that a slave is a human whos right to freedom and life overrides the slave owner's right to own a slave as property. When will we realize that a child's life is more important than a woman's right to choose to kill her own flesh and blood? Slavery is clearly wrong, and is illegal. Does slavery still exist in this world? Of course. Abortion is clearly wrong, and is legal. If a law was passed to make abortion illegal, does that mean it would still happen? It probably would. The difference is that we as a nation support, by law, the killing of human beings for the sake of convenience and selfishness. How long do you think God will be patient with us?

To answer your first question, yes. A law is a command that has a consequence if it is disobeyed. I law against speeding forces people to drive below a certain velocity or else risk punishment. A law against rape forces people to respect the rights of another person's body or else risk punishment. A law against abortion forces a woman to bring a fetus to term or else risk punishment.

Slavery may exist, but not state sanctioned slavery. Not anywhere. No country legally permits slavery. Why? because it is a simple black and white issue. Abortion isn't no matter how much you want it to be. I couldn't comment on the patience of the Lord. I think Christians do a lot of good things. Through the teachings of Christ, you can influence the hearts and minds of those that would seek to have abortions. You can set aside money to care for all the extra children that would be born as a result of this influence. However, at present, what you can't do is force a woman to take a baby to term if she doesn't want to. It's just not legal.

[jlay]

Possibly a few. But prior to and outside of religious reasons, education on the matter is the best combatant...not law. Our efforts are wasted, I believe, on pushing and pushing, arguing and arguing about making it law.

Bologna. We live in a society where voicing our opinion is part of the political process. We should always lobby for justice, and make efforts to protect the unborn when and where we can. It is sad to me that you do not see the merits. Do you really think that the is just a matter of education?

I suppose God may seem to not make sense either.

Exodus 34:5-7 NIV wrote:
5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

Please enlighten me to just what your point is here????

[RickD]

humbles, I guess we disagree on what the word "force" means.

To answer your first question, yes. A law is a command that has a consequence if it is disobeyed. I law against speeding forces people to drive below a certain velocity or else risk punishment. A law against rape forces people to respect the rights of another person's body or else risk punishment. A law against abortion forces a woman to bring a fetus to term or else risk punishment.

All laws do is point out to the offender that he is a lawbreaker. Laws don't force anyone to obey them. There are always consequences to our actions. A law making abortion illegal may help some women realize that there is a person inside her, that if she has killed, is illegal. Just because it is legal, that doesn't mean that any woman who has an abortion, doesn't feel horrible after her baby is killed.

Slavery may exist, but not state sanctioned slavery. Not anywhere. No country legally permits slavery.

Tell that to a woman who lives in a country under sharia law.

Through the teachings of Christ, you can influence the hearts and minds of those that would seek to have abortions.

The teachings of Christ isn't what does the influencing. When we believe in Jesus Christ, the true Christ of the bible, God gives us the Holy Spirit to live within us, to comfort us. The Holy Spirit also convicts us of our sins. As we grow in Christ, the Holy Spirit(God Himself)inside us, transforms us. That is the difference between having a relationship with God through Christ, and every other man made religion in the world.

[BavarianWheels]

Please enlighten me to just what your point is here????

I think it's you that needs to explain why it's unfair to "punish" children for their father's sins...next you're going to say it should be illegal for a cancer patient to procreate for that may punish his/her child?

In light of the text, why is it unsavory to you?
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[jlay]

I think it's you that needs to explain why it's unfair to "punish" children for their father's sins...next you're going to say it should be illegal for a cancer patient to procreate for that may punish his/her child?

In light of the text, why is it unsavory to you?

First, I have no idea why you are equating this scripture to the issue of abortion. It makes zero sense to me, thus I asked for explanation. Now, you throw out some just plain wierd statement. Wheels, do you understand what I am saying regarding punishing the child for the crimes of the father? Do you also know that this comment was directed at HS, not you. My point is addressing what HS said regarding rape. I'm arguing that abortion is not justified because of rape. Why would punishing the unborn child, by aborting it, bring justice to the tragic situation of rape? Now, not only do you have the crime of rape, but then the mother becomes a murderer of her own child. If you abort an unborn child because it is the product of rape, then you are in fact punishing the child for the crimes of the father.

What are you asking me if I find unsavory?

[humblesmurph]

humbles, I guess we disagree on what the word "force" means.

To answer your first question, yes. A law is a command that has a consequence if it is disobeyed. I law against speeding forces people to drive below a certain velocity or else risk punishment. A law against rape forces people to respect the rights of another person's body or else risk punishment. A law against abortion forces a woman to bring a fetus to term or else risk punishment.

All laws do is point out to the offender that he is a lawbreaker. Laws don't force anyone to obey them. There are always consequences to our actions. A law making abortion illegal may help some women realize that there is a person inside her, that if she has killed, is illegal. Just because it is legal, that doesn't mean that any woman who has an abortion, doesn't feel horrible after her baby is killed.

Slavery may exist, but not state sanctioned slavery. Not anywhere. No country legally permits slavery.

Tell that to a woman who lives in a country under sharia law.

Through the teachings of Christ, you can influence the hearts and minds of those that would seek to have abortions.

The teachings of Christ isn't what does the influencing. When we believe in Jesus Christ, the true Christ of the bible, God gives us the Holy Spirit to live within us, to comfort us. The Holy Spirit also convicts us of our sins. As we grow in Christ, the Holy Spirit(God Himself)inside us, transforms us. That is the difference between having a relationship with God through Christ, and every other man made religion in the world.

RickD, your definition of force is simply wrong. Your description of the law is simply wrong. If you are found to be breaking the law of the state you will be punished by the state. A law isn't just a statement that X is illegal. Such a statement without force is meaningless.

Pro-lifers have been arguing this whole thread that the mere fact that abortion is legal doesn't mean we know it is right. How can you turn around and say that making it illegal will let a woman know that it is wrong? You just got done telling me that law and morality aren't necessarily connected.

[BavarianWheels]

First, I have no idea why you are equating this scripture to the issue of abortion.

I'm not. You brought up the "it's not fair" tactic. Next you're going to tell me there will be no pregnant females at the time of Christ's return that are going to hell?

Wheels, do you understand what I am saying regarding punishing the child for the crimes of the father?

Whatever you're trying to get at, playing that card simply doesn't fit in society.

Do you also know that this comment was directed at HS, not you.

Pardon me...I didn't realize this is a closed discussion session.

My point is addressing what HS said regarding rape. I'm arguing that abortion is not justified because of rape.

...says a man (I presume)

Why would punishing the unborn child, by aborting it, bring justice to the tragic situation of rape?

Who's arguing the justice of/in abortion and/or rape?

Now, not only do you have the crime of rape, but then the mother becomes a murderer of her own child. If you abort an unborn child because it is the product of rape, then you are in fact punishing the child for the crimes of the father.

Sin is sad isn't it.

What are you asking me if I find unsavory?

God punishing children for the sins of their fathers.
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[jlay]

Wheels,
All I can say, is half of what you are saying I don't understand. The other half, I don't you think you understand me.

Pardon me...I didn't realize this is a closed discussion session.

That is not what I'm saying at all. You are welcome to comment. But based on your reply, you sounded as if I was specifically addressing you, when I was not. Based on your comments it sounds as if you are defending abortion in the case of rape. Is that correct?

jlay wrote:
What are you asking me if I find unsavory?

God punishing children for the sins of their fathers.

Please tell me, how the scripture you quoted has any relavance to what I am specifically discussing regarding killing an unborn child who is a product of rape. I see none. If you really want to equate a mother killing her unborn child, to that of our soverign Father exacting justice, then you will walk that path without me.

jlay wrote:
My point is addressing what HS said regarding rape. I'm arguing that abortion is not justified because of rape.

...says a man (I presume)

I think I have a little more experience than you are giving me credit for. My wife was a rape victim. So, please, pause and actually think a little before you go blurting out some inane response. Further, this isn't just the position of a man. It's one I share with my wife and millions of pro-life women. Pretty amature Wheels.

Sin is sad isn't it.

You bet. So how does a mother committing an atrocity by murdering her baby make things right, or better?

[RickD]

humbles, I guess we disagree on what the word "force" means.

To answer your first question, yes. A law is a command that has a consequence if it is disobeyed. I law against speeding forces people to drive below a certain velocity or else risk punishment. A law against rape forces people to respect the rights of another person's body or else risk punishment. A law against abortion forces a woman to bring a fetus to term or else risk punishment.

All laws do is point out to the offender that he is a lawbreaker. Laws don't force anyone to obey them. There are always consequences to our actions. A law making abortion illegal may help some women realize that there is a person inside her, that if she has killed, is illegal. Just because it is legal, that doesn't mean that any woman who has an abortion, doesn't feel horrible after her baby is killed.

Slavery may exist, but not state sanctioned slavery. Not anywhere. No country legally permits slavery.

Tell that to a woman who lives in a country under sharia law.

Through the teachings of Christ, you can influence the hearts and minds of those that would seek to have abortions.

The teachings of Christ isn't what does the influencing. When we believe in Jesus Christ, the true Christ of the bible, God gives us the Holy Spirit to live within us, to comfort us. The Holy Spirit also convicts us of our sins. As we grow in Christ, the Holy Spirit(God Himself)inside us, transforms us. That is the difference between having a relationship with God through Christ, and every other man made religion in the world.

RickD, your definition of force is simply wrong. Your description of the law is simply wrong. If you are found to be breaking the law of the state you will be punished by the state. A law isn't just a statement that X is illegal. Such a statement without force is meaningless.

Pro-lifers have been arguing this whole thread that the mere fact that abortion is legal doesn't mean we know it is right. How can you turn around and say that making it illegal will let a woman know that it is wrong? You just got done telling me that law and morality aren't necessarily connected.

humbles, I must not be clear enough with what I mean. I apologize. I'll try to explain it better. I'm saying that just because there are laws, that doesn't mean we have to obey them. I understand that there may be a penalty if we break a law. I'm saying that no one is physically or otherwise forcing me to obey any law. If it becomes illegal in this country for a doctor to perform an abortion, that doesn't force anyone to not get an abortion. There would probably still be doctors who would kill babies for the right price. I didn't mean to imply that if abortion was legal, that every woman would therefore know it is wrong. I meant that some women might think about it and avoid an abortion if it was illegal. I'm just saying that the law makes us aware that something is or may be wrong. My point is that if abortion is the killing of a human being, then it should be illegal. Period. If you don't believe that a fetus is a human, then we'll go around in circles if we keep talking about this.

[RickD]

humble smurf,

For the sake of brevity. Yes, abortion is murder. It is absolutely positively an act of baby killing. Now that we've settled that, do you think it should be illegal? If so, how do you plan to enforce it? How do you investigate a suspected abortion? Are we really supposed to put every women up in stirrups every time they have a miscarriage? You can only make it illegal for doctors to perform abortions. You can't ever make a woman keep a child/fetus/little one she doesn't want.

You posted this a little while back. I guess all I'm saying is that it should be illegal for a doctor to perform an abortion. Doctors know it's a baby they're killing. I thought that what we meant when we said abortion should be illegal, was that no doctor should be able to legally do it.

[BavarianWheels]

Wheels,
All I can say, is half of what you are saying I don't understand. The other half, I don't you think you understand me.

Pardon me...I didn't realize this is a closed discussion session.

That is not what I'm saying at all. You are welcome to comment. But based on your reply, you sounded as if I was specifically addressing you, when I was not. Based on your comments it sounds as if you are defending abortion in the case of rape. Is that correct?

No specific situations. Simply the pro CHOICE stance. No one is arguing if it is correct or that it brings justice to an injustice. Not one person is claiming abortion is good.

jlay wrote:
What are you asking me if I find unsavory?

God punishing children for the sins of their fathers.

Please tell me, how the scripture you quoted has any relavance to what I am specifically discussing regarding killing an unborn child who is a product of rape. I see none. If you really want to equate a mother killing her unborn child, to that of our soverign Father exacting justice, then you will walk that path without me.

Once again...next you're going to tell me that there will be no pregnant women going to hell.

jlay wrote:
My point is addressing what HS said regarding rape. I'm arguing that abortion is not justified because of rape.

...says a man (I presume)

I think I have a little more experience than you are giving me credit for. My wife was a rape victim. So, please, pause and actually think a little before you go blurting out some inane response. Further, this isn't just the position of a man. It's one I share with my wife and millions of pro-life women. Pretty amature Wheels.

I'm sorry your wife is a victim of rape.

This being the situation still doesn't change the well documented stance of women that are pregnant due to rape. Most don't want to carry a child they don't want. Why should they be forced to? What rights do they have in their suffering? Is it their right to minimize their suffering?

Sin is sad isn't it.

You bet. So how does a mother committing an atrocity by murdering her baby make things right, or better?

It doesn't.
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[humblesmurph]

RickD, Thanks for the clarification. As you know, I still disagree, but I no longer think that your opinion is contradictory.