Theif on the Cross

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:39 pm

Yes, exactly! Writings in Koine Greek, particularly the Scriptures, do not have punctuations. Who then placed the comman BEFORE "today"? It's the translators who subscribe to the traditional belief that when a Christian dies, he immediately goes to heaven.

BTW, you cannot prove the comma to be BEFORE "today" exegetixcally, both placements are possible as far as the Greek is concerned. It's up to the translators to decide where he would place it. But again, to place it before "today" would contradict the very fact that Jesus did not go to "heaven/paradise" (as per 2 Cor. 12:2-4) that very day, (i.e., "today").

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:20 pm

Anyone who dies goes into soul sleep...we don't know what that is like so don't be as bold to claim that a christian doesn't immediately go to heaven. Noone who is alive can know the nature of soul sleep.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:11 pm

ThirdOption wrote:Yes, exactly! Writings in Koine Greek, particularly the Scriptures, do not have punctuations. Who then placed the comman BEFORE "today"? It's the translators who subscribe to the traditional belief that when a Christian dies, he immediately goes to heaven.

Yes, and it would be no different if they placed it afterwards, TO. Now, I've commented extensively on this matter. See my initial post to Bav. specifically on this issue. The fact is, a straight reading of the text, especially in comparison with the rest of Gospels' employment of the construction, puts the comma before "today," and not afterwards. I've have demonstrated this on several levels. Further, your defense for it's being placed before is completely circular. You have to have it that way to support your belief in soul sleep, and yet you use it as evidence for the position. I don't believe in soul sleep. Here's the thing, TO: I could reject soul sleep and STILL accept your reading. Jesus could say, "I say to you today, you will be . . ." and it would be no contradiction to say that the man who dies goes directly to heaven. As it is, you HAVE to render it that way because your theology requires it. There is a term for that. It's called eisegesis.

TO wrote:BTW, you cannot prove the comma to be BEFORE "today" exegetixcally, both placements are possible as far as the Greek is concerned. It's up to the translators to decide where he would place it. But again, to place it before "today" would contradict the very fact that Jesus did not go to "heaven/paradise" (as per 2 Cor. 12:2-4) that very day, (i.e., "today").

See my previous statements. I've also already commented on Jesus' going to heaven/paradise "that day." Look, TO, I've refuted or at least offered alternatives for absolutely every single point that you have brought up. You've not even dealt with my initial arguments. The simple fact is that the exegetical weight is in my favor, and, as said before, the burden of proof is on you.

vvart: what do you mean by "soul sleep"? I know what Bav. and TO's take on it is, but you seem to deny the traditional understanding by saying a person doesn't go immediately to heaven.

I'll probably start a thread on this here soon . . .