God, Satan and Job

[SeekingForGod]

I do not understand why would the loving God allow Satan to test Job and make Job suffers so much, all just to prove to Satan that Job will be faithful to God. Didn't God know before Time that Job will remain faithful? Why did He seem to bother whether Satan is convinced of Job's faith or not? Why would God need to satisfy Satan's curiosity? How about Job's children who died because of the test? How could a loving God allow the death of other lives so as to test one person? I do want to have Faith, but there are just so many questions I have concerning the Old Testament. Job is just one. I sincerely hope someone can help me to clear my doubts.

[B. W.]

I do not understand why would the loving God allow Satan to test Job and make Job suffers so much, all just to prove to Satan that Job will be faithful to God. Didn't God know before Time that Job will remain faithful? Why did He seem to bother whether Satan is convinced of Job's faith or not? Why would God need to satisfy Satan's curiosity? How about Job's children who died because of the test? How could a loving God allow the death of other lives so as to test one person? I do want to have Faith, but there are just so many questions I have concerning the Old Testament. Job is just one. I sincerely hope someone can help me to clear my doubts.

It was Satan actually testing God, trying to entrap God as not being able to keep his word. Understanding this, changes the reading and it makes more sense.

The rest of yor questions have been asked by great thinkers thru the ages. I would like for others to comment on these as well before I do. Some of these questions still puzzle the greatest of minds.

I'll open this up by trying to answer this one: Didn't God know before Time that Job will remain faithful?

It was a bet, so to speak, that God could not lose...
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[Silvertusk]

Job's children who died are also now with God and are living eternally in bliss - And Job knows this because he is extremely faithful - so in the end the suffering next to eternity in the presence of God is insignificant.

Silvertusk.

[smiley]

I'll open this up by trying to answer this one: Didn't God know before Time that Job will remain faithful?

If yes (which I don't agree with), it makes Satan look dumber than a box of rocks. Placing a bet with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God.

[Canuckster1127]

Why assume that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God cannot voluntarily limit Himself in specific situations? Isn't that a great part of what God did in coming as Christ?

[smiley]

I am entirely with you what He can. In either case, it would be accurate to say that God did not "know ahead of time that Job will remain faithful", even if He was consciously limiting His omniscience. That was my point.

In any case, many Bible scholars argue that, based on the genre of the Book of Job, the whole dialogue between Satan and God in the beginning isn't meant to be taken literally.

[Canuckster1127]

That's one possibility as well. The genre of Job is poetic, which lends support to that possibility.

The other thing to consider in general when reading the Bible is that the even when viewed as inspired (which I accept) it is still a very human book and includes the perceptions and understandings of men which don't necessarily translate to the perceptions and understandings of God himself.

Western didactic philosophy and logic often time brings things into the text being examined that were not necessarily intended by the Human Author nor necessarily understood by the original audience.

One of these elements that I observe more commonly is the idea of the perfection of God. The western concept of "perfect" is as commonly comes out in systematic theology with the elements you mention which include omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. This is often tied back to Plato's Cave if you've interested in looking up more of the type of associationa and thinking I'm referring to.

To the Hebrew mind however, "perfect" applies more to the idea of mature, complete and in the fulness of time.

Greek philosophy tends to lean to the abstract and looks for absolute logical consistency. A Hebrew world view tends to lean to the wholistic and focuses upon relationship with consistency found in that realm primarily.

Something to consider anyway.

[B. W.]

I'll open this up by trying to answer this one: Didn't God know before Time that Job will remain faithful?

If yes (which I don't agree with), it makes Satan look dumber than a box of ]rocks. Placing a bet with an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God.

It would not really make the devil look dumb,

It makes the devil look more crafty, sinister, and diabolic as someone who is seeking to overthrow God. There are definite passages of scripture that support this about the devil. There were beings who followed Satan who desire overthrowing God to set up a new kingdom governed by their own self interest through acquiring power through use of creating chaos. Such think they can entrap God at his own word, causing God to deny himself, thus dethroning God as God.

Looking back at myself before coming to Christ, like all sinners, I thought best to ignore God, and tempted god to prove himself a God all powerful, all loving, all kind, all fair, etc in many diverse ways known and unknown to me at that time. God foreknew that on different levels, we all would do this. So why would the father of rebellion be any different seeking to overthrow God by trying to entrap God by making God live up to his own word, character, and nature?

God knowing this about the devil answers him before he has time to speak. For example look at Job 1:7, 8. In verse eight God already knew what Satan was up too. So, by Satan attacking Job, God proves what Satan is all about: a thief who robs, kills, and destroys, accuses, seeks ultimate power and control, as well as craftily wise, and sinisterly diabolic, so irrefutable evidence is compiled and stored for God to act justly later on in the court of heaven.

The devil’s rules is by his own self interest by creating ruin, various forms of destructions, causing conditions for doubt basically tempting God’s all powerful ability. Denying Satan’s challenge (Job 1:9, 10) would prove God acts contrary to his own all powerfulness. If denied, then God cannot act all powerfully in all and thru all events/things and really not God. But God’s wisdom is greater and indeed he worked through all things magnificently indicting and exposing the devil in the process (Note God's words to Job about the devil - Job 41:1, 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 33, 34 - notice verses 12-14 are telling).

God when speaking to the devil later told him that he incited God: manipulated God. Now look at the meaning of this word further:

From AMG's Word Study for the word translated as ‘incite or movesd’ in Job 2:3 with the contextual mean from how it is used in Job 2:3 underlined…

Strong's number 5496 for סוּת sût:

A verb meaning to incite, to entice, to mislead. It has the sense of stirring up persons with the intention to get them to deviate, to act with destructive, harmful purposes or results in mind; to incite people to be evil, to lead them astray (Deu 13:6 [7]); 1Sa 26:19; 2Sa 24:1; 1Ki 21:25; Isa 36:18). It is also used of getting a person to concede or agree to something in a neutral or positive sense (Jos 15:18; Jdg 1:14; Job 36:16).

Remember it was not Jobs own personal acts that made him righteous before God, it was God’s grace that placed a hedge about Job. Job forgot this and began depending on his own self works to maintain His own righteousness (Job 32:1) and forgot it was By God’s hedge of Grace placed by God.

Through it all, Job learned of his sin of self righteousness thru Elihu’s words, repented by returning to the hedge of grace – God’s act of Grace that makes one right before God. Therefore, when God declares one righteous by means of his Grace – God is more than able to see his declaration thru to the end, thus is all powerfully able to expose, destroy, all the works of the evil one in the process (Romans 8:37, 38, 39)
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[SeekingForGod]

Thank you all for your answers. But I still have doubts.
(1) If we say "It was Satan actually testing God", then I still wonder why did God have to take up the test. Why would He be "dethroned" if He did not accept the test. Why woud God need to pass Satan's "test" to stay on the throne, so to speak?
(2) If we say "even when viewed as inspired, [the Bible] is still a very human book and includes the perceptions and understandings of men which don't necessarily translate to the perceptions and understandings of God himself" [Canuckster1127], then can we say the image of God in the Bible has somehow been distorted by Hebrew imagination, so much so that one can find traces of, well, "God's" hatred of Jewish enemies, in the Old Testament?
(3) Canuckster1127 writes, "To the Hebrew mind however, "perfect" applies more to the idea of mature, complete and in the fulness of time." Can you expoound more on this? Are there any books that you would recommend for me to read? I am very interested. It seems to be that only when we give up the ideas of God's "omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence" can we explain many important things in the Old Testament. Such as the "fall" of Adam and Eve, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ [if He is certain right from the start he would come back to life again, then the sufferings is not such a big deal] , etc. Thank you.

[B. W.]

Thank you all for your answers. But I still have doubts.

(1) If we say "It was Satan actually testing God", then I still wonder why did God have to take up the test. Why would He be "dethroned" if He did not accept the test? Why would God need to pass Satan's "test" to stay on the throne, so to speak? ... etc.

Thank you.

Let me go slow and try to help you grasp what is going on regarding question one. The best way to grasp the truths in the book of Job is to know the Players: God, Satan, Job, etc…

Players: God, Satan, Job...

God reveals his character and nature in the bible in many places: You identified some of God’s traits already as omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. Next, add Deuteronomy 32:4, 2 Sam 22:31. Ecclesiastes 3:14, Exodus 34:6, Psalms 92:15, Isaiah 55:11, Isaiah 46:10 reveals about God. He is perfect, God of Justice, upright, His word is proven, He keeps his word making sure it is complete, merciful, longsuffering, abounding in goodness and truth, no unrighteousness in him, his counsel shall stand and he will do as he wills.

Satan’s character is revealed in the bible in Genesis 3:1, 15 as a crafty, cunning serpent, Ezekiel 28:12, 13, 15, 16, 17 one In the Garden of Eden, at one time an anointed Cherub, perfect until iniquity found in him, violent, pompous, etc, and Isaiah 14:12, 13, 14, 15 fallen, wants to overthrow God (the existing order) and establish his own order based on creating doubt, chaos, weakness, etc. Jesus tells that He is a lair, thief, murderer, destroyer, ruiner, and elsewhere described as a roar lion seeking to devour.

Job is a man declared upright by God. There is more about Job but we will not go further than that for now as the first two players in Job are God and Satan.

Main Point in Brief

Satan was originally designed a covering Cherub, perfect in all his way until iniquity was found in him. As I stated in my book, A Land Unknown: Hell’s Dominion, it was found not placed. God designed the devil with intelligence and with that due to God being perfect and Just, abounding in goodness, and truth, such design of intelligence would be free to reason. God knowing all things foreknew all but since he is Just and merciful, He let that one live after he rebelled (sinners too). God does not take way life either – what he does is forever.

So how would you in God's role live up to yourself justly and with perfect finesses precision never violating or denying who you are, remaining all that you are when one rebels against you? Denying that act rebellion to that being definitely proves that you are not all powerful, all wise, perfect, etc, does it? Blasting a being off into non-existence, even though you could, proves to yourself that you are not a God of the Living as well as not able to be all powerfully able to work through all things. If you, in this hypothetical role as God, deny yourself in any form of character/nature/word - how can you really be and remain God?

Next, How do you convict this being of rebellion, while being just, merciful, longsuffering, all that God is, and exercise justice of a righteous sentence without violating the very gift you gave a rebellious being? You being God who reneges on no gifts or callings – do this, how can you remain God? God’s ways are beyond what we can even think. His wisdom is profoundly boundless and brilliant. God made a place called hell to contain such beings for eternity. To get there, would be a slow arduous process to us and even viewed by us as unfairly slow but with methodical precision uncovers the rebellious, exposes them for who they really are, all that they are, intents, and what they are about.

Satan, knowing God cannot and willfully will not violate His (God himself's) own character, nature, and word would do what to try to overthrow God and establish his own kingdom? Answer: He would attempt to cause God deny himself by pitting God’s own attributes against God himself. That’s how iniquity was found in the devil.

Now look at Job 1:7 - God, foreknowing the devil's wiles addresses him first. Then in Job 1:8 – you have God speaking, correct? God made a declaration about Job as an upright/righteous man, correct?

Can God keep his word if he removes the hedge of protection about Job? Can you see the devil’s challenge? Can God keep his word? (There is more than this here but for now this will suffice) What was God up too? Answer: Many things at once and at the end of it, remaining God true to himself as He cannot deny himself..

God speaks in a declaration to Job and all in Job 41. Look at what it is, Job 41:34 identifies this Leviathan as the king over all children of pride – Satan. Look at what He says he will do in Job 41:1, 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 33, 34. Now notice Job 41:12, 13, 14 as these are telling what God intended before Satan ever tried to trick God to act contrary to his own character/nature/word by using Job to do so: uncover - expose the devil for who and what he is.

What did Satan do to Job, his family, his life? and More importantly, what was the devil trying to do to God? What is exposed about the devil’s kingdom that the devil wishes to establish, how will it be run? Checkmate! Then and later Genesis 3:15 fulfilled by Christ work on the cross. Hmmmm, look at Col 2:15, John12:31, John 14:30, John 16:11, 1 John 3:8… God gathers evidence for Himself for that final judgment and sentence, all done in the most perfect wise manner that keeps God’s entire integrity intact.

Should I say more???

What role did Job play?
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Please not this material is Copyrighted 2008 by me and modified and edited to post on the Evidence for God through Science Forum on 9/29/2010. Not part can be used or sold without my written permission but can be quoted and cited in part with my name as listed below. Note: I will prosecute, this is protected material.

Bryan W. Melvin
Author: A Land Unknown: Hell’s Dominion
Copyright 2008 - Various Subjects

[SeekingForGod]

Thank you. I shall find the time to read your book. Anyway, a quick question: if "Satan was originally ... perfect in all his way", how did "iniquity" come to him?

[Canuckster1127]

The same way it came to man who also was part of a creation God pronounced "very good". Through free agency, free will and a desire to exceed the role and purpose to which he was created.

Perfect in the Hebrew mindset refers to mature, fully suited to one's purpose, in the fullness of time, etc. The idea of "perfect" as an abstract concept and an immutable characteristic of God's character is more a reflection of Greek (platonic in particular) philosophy.

[SeekingForGod]

Can we say then that even without Satan, human being may sin, "through free agency"? So we cannot put all the blames on Satan any longer for our sin.

[Canuckster1127]

Humans are fully capable of sin independent of Satans' example and leading.