Discussion about the overall case for Christian Theism...

[derrick09]

Hello, right now I'm still really trying to make some headway with my faith and my relationship with God and develop the strongest and most reasonable faith that I possibly can. But it seems like for me, and I've been studying this stuff for the past five years almost and I"ve noticed two key things. First, it is very possible to be a reasonable person and be a Christian. It's also very possible to be a scientist and be a Christian, It's even possible to be a nerd or a brainiac and be a Christian. But second, as far as the case for Christian Theism (or any Theism ) beating the case for atheistic naturalism on evidence and arguments, it seems to me, right at the moment, is coming up a little short. It comes close, in fact, too close, as in, to me, right now, it's too close to call. It could really go either way. Especially when you consider the fact, that at first glance, if the secular scientists are indeed honest people who either do not have a underlying agenda or at the very least, try hard to not let that agenda show and their data that they use to support their theories is indeed honest, then their case is right up there with ours and could possibly beat ours in some areas. But if they do indeed have an agenda (like I've mentioned in the past http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... lem#p87251 ) and this agenda is being reflected in their data that they present to the public then a lot of things that they say and claim could be dubious because they are trying to bring about a larger goal ie social change through any means necessary. But regardless of what you think of that, my main topic that I want to bring up is how sure and confident we can be that our worldview (Christian Theism) has all or most of the goods as far as evidence and most reasonable arguments? How certain percentage wise, can we have (on the arguments and evidences alone) that Christian Theism is true? How confident are you all (on the evidence and arguments alone) that Christian Theism is true? Or how much do you have to fall back on experiences, emotion, and family tradition (to go along with the arguments and evidence) to have a firmly established and confident faith? To go back to the percentage thing, the atheist/Christian Theist debate is alot like the weather, we don't know and can never know 100% or prove which side is true but we can show and viewers like us can review the evidence and arguments on each side and say which one of the two is the most likely to be true. Now for me currently, just by going on the arguments and evidence alone, I'm currently 50 to 60% confident that Christian Theism is true, now when I factor in other things like my emotional preference and my Christian upbringing, my overall confidence consequently rises. Now then, I was wanting to ask you all, going on evidence and arguments alone, how confident are you that Christian Theism is true? Are you in about the same shape I'm in or is your percentage of confidence higher than mine? If so, which specific arguments and evidence propel your confidence level beyond mine? Below in my reply post, I'm going to give a brief listing of the top arguments and evidences from each side and we can discuss them and any ones that I don't mention as well. Thank you all for your time and God bless.

[derrick09]

Ok, here is a list of the main issues along with the main truth claims that both atheism and Christian theism are claiming. I first list the ones for atheism, then the ones for Christian Theism, then I list my views or take on the main issues, and then I list several of my concerns about each issue....






Atheism



Origin of the Universe: Either a eternal universe or a universe spawning from quantum activity or forming out of nothing by nothing



Origin of life: arose from a random chemical reaction



Development of life's different kinds: From mutation and natural selection from Darwinian evolution with no intelligence needed


The person of Jesus: Was either a crazy person or a liar wanting to start a cult or a revolution or he didn't exist at all


Religious experiences and or miracles: They are coincidences or sociological or imaginative experiences that trick us into believing they are something

more.

Morality: It's relative or it can change at any time due to the view of the ruling majority.

Man's desire for hope, meaning, and the afterlife: A random evolutionary "glitch" only meant to prolong man's survival on earth

The soul: There is no soul, we are our brains, once our brains die we die.


Death and the afterlife: There is no afterlife, after death we no longer exist.





Christian Theism


Origin of the Universe: Created by God out of nothing or by some other means

Origin of life: Created spontaneously or by natural means (with intelligent direction by God)

Development of life's kinds: Created spontaneously, by natural means, or even by evolution of some kind but with intelligent direction and guidance from God

The person of Jesus: The Son of God

Religious experiences or miracles: They are preplanned orchestrated events by God either acting with natural laws or going against them

Morality: They are absolute and unchanging laws created by God

Man's desire for hope, meaning, and the afterlife: A deep seeded innermost desire put into people by God so they can try to know Him

The soul: We may or may not have a soul

Death and the afterlife: After death we keep living or we are dead temporary and then remade at the resurrection where we either spend eternity with God in heaven or in hell with satan.


My brief view on these topics as I see them so far:

Origin of the Universe: So far, naturalistic models have failed or haven't been shown to me thus far that the universe can come about by natural forces, since at this time, I don't think natural forces have enough brute power to create matter and eventually create organized beings like ourselves that can think and ask questions like these. Also things appear to be so finely tuned that it also adds to the case that the universe was created by a transcendent and personal being.

Origin of Life: As of now, there isn't any solid credible theory or anything 100% solid to show that life came from a random combination of nonliving chemicals. The closet thing that even tries to show such a concept was the Stanley Miller and similar type experiments which haven't been established clear enough.

Development of life's kinds: It's still up in the air that the different kinds of life we see could or could not have developed by some type of evolution, but for now, it seems that life is so complex and the DNA functions just like a computer program, that gives powerful evidence that some kind of intelligence had to be involved. Currently it looks like a all natural model (that excludes intelligence) cannot adequately explain the complexity and how that complexity came about by all natural means.

The person of Jesus: Most credible scholars accept the fact that Christ did indeed exist and with no solid natural explanation for the empty tomb and for the fearlessness of the disciples, it gives fairly good evidence that Christ was who He said He was.

Religious experiences or miracles: As far as these go, I haven't been as lucky in recent years to see or be a part of anything that would be considered a miracle like a supernatural healing per se, but as far as religious experiences go, I've had some warm peaceful feelings while thinking about God and while praying, but nonetheless, they still could be just a natural emotional or mental reaction since I've also had those same kind of feelings for other things such as while thinking about memorable moments in my life or while thinking about others.

Morality: While on one hand, it looks like morality in some areas is relative, take slavery for instance, a long time ago slavery was considered normal while now it's not. But for more general things like murdering and raping innocent people (especially children) is absolutely wrong, and from what I've seen for the most part, we all almost have a innermost sense that things like these are morally wrong. So that alone gives credit to the idea that morals are absolute and that God is behind it.


Man's desire for hope, meaning, and the afterlife: I for one, certainly sense this within me, in fact, it's the driving force behind my desire to search for truth while studying science and philosophy as well as the arguments for and against God's existence. Because I have this desire for meaning and for a afterlife, and most if not all people have this as well, and the fact that atheism cannot fill that void than it leaves us with good evidence that God is the one that gave us that desire.


The soul: I'm currently unsure as to whether or not we have one. I'm still of the desire and taste in the sense that I want there to be one, since if it can be demonstrated later scientifically that we have something immaterial, it would be a great piece of evidence in our favor since it would prove the supernatural and thus, prove God.


Death and the afterlife: I'm hopeful because of my beliefs that there will be a afterlife (and fearful of the possibility that my beliefs may not be true, there will be no afterlife).


Concerns I have about future discoveries on these issues:


Origin of the universe: I'm scared of people like Hawking who will come up with new theories whether good ones or bad ones like what we've recently seen with Hawking that try to eliminate God out of the equation. I'm slightly concerned about them using things like the Large Hadron Collider to try to demonstrate some sort of testable way to show how matter or the universe can self create, but I doubt they will make much progress with that thing. I'm mostly concerned that when the secular scientists get more defined and technical with their self creating universe or eternal universe theories, what will that do to our flagship argument, the Cosmological argument?


Origin of life: I'm of course concerned about any new discoveries or experiments that somehow might swing in the favor of naturalism. I'm also concerned about astronomers finding other earthlike planets which could demonstrate that complex life is common and if you just get a few conditions right life will always just naturally develop.


Development of life's different kinds: Now that I've found out more about the different flavors of biblical creation and in extreme cases (i.e. if worse comes to worse) I could accept theistic evolution, even though I would be gnashing my teeth doing so. But I guess you can say I'm still moderately concerned about any kind of evidence that goes in favor of evolution especially if intelligent design somehow gets firmly debunked, but as I said, I can live with it since Christian Theism can still live with it.


The person of Jesus: Unless if Bart Eherman's views become the new consensus or some new wild discovery comes about or some brand new and robust natural theory explaining the resurrection away comes out, then I'll be concerned, but as of now, I'm fully convinced that if the arguments for God's existence continue to hold up and get better, than naturally, it will follow that Jesus is the Son of God. Plus I've invested way too much time, love, effort, money and faith into Christ being the Son of God for me to turn away so, there is little concern in this area.


Religious experiences and miracles: Like I've said, earlier the religious feelings I've had may or may not be from God, it's too early or to difficult to tell right at the moment. I also had a big religious or unusual experience near the beginning of my life that I hope to share with you all sometime in the future. But as far as experiencing any modern day miracles like what many charismatic describe I haven't been as blessed or lucky to experience them as of yet. I would love to find some written accounts or dare I say photographic or video footage of anything paranormal, but since so much can be manipulated in photographs and video it would be a tough call. But I guess we'll wait and see what happens, God may have some wild stuff in store for us since we may be living in the last days (and we pretty much are if indeed, Christian Theism is true)

Morality: My main concern with this would be if evolutionary psychologists are somehow able to prove or demonstrate that morals are relative and are nothing less than survival mechanisms that we've evolved. But if they don't, the moral argument to me, will be pretty much untouched.

Man's desire for hope, meaning, and the afterlife: Again, the same concern under the morality tab applies to this one. I also somehow hope, if naturalism gets proven or proven most reasonable, secular neuroscientists are able to crate a chemical formula that can either be injected into our brains or ingested that would take away that pain and drive for meaning and the afterlife since, if we are just complicated bags of chemicals, they could come up with such a thing to satisfy us.

The soul: I'm very worried in this area, because of people like Stephen Norvella supposedly can demonstrate by experiment that people's soulish qualities or what many would think are soulish qualities like personality, emotion, thoughts, can be manipulated by chemicals or by physical stimulation. I'm also worried that things like brain damage and neurological diseases somehow show, in a way, that the soul doesn't exist. And of course, I'm worried about any new discoveries that secular neuroscience comes up with.


Death and the afterlife: This of course is my main fear if God's existence and Christian Theism is somehow shown to be false or less reasonable, how would we and I especially, deal with the powerfully scary and unfulfilling idea that when we die, we will no longer exist? How will we emotionally and mentally cope with such a thing? My only guess currently is that we will do what most atheists do, don't think about it, and live for the moment and live for pleasure, and do everything we can to block the fear out.


So anyway, that's my quick take on the big questions in life, let me know your thoughts and what you can add to this to help me and others in their search for truth and hopefully for God. Thanks and God bless.

[derrick09]

One more thing, I was also wanting to point out that this discussion is related to this one

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=34744

and vice versa.