Infinite punishment for finite sins

[Sudsy]

And what purpose does judgement and sentence and punishment serve?

I believe the purpose would be that a just God requires a penalty for the sin of rejecting His provision of salvation. This penalty or wage does not need to be never ending to have an eternal or final affect. Is God's wrath against such a sin so great that His mercy is set aside or will it be that His mercy is what endures forever and His wrath will be satisfied at a point of sentence that is not never ending ?

As I first posted, if the apostles believed that hell was really going to be a never ending place of torment, how do we account for them not preaching this way in the New Testament ? It would only seem reasonable to me that if anyone believed that God's wrath against an unbeliever would never be satisfied, they would not be very much of a fellow human being if they are not diligently warning and pleading with everyone to not go there.

I often hear a song that goes -'the wrath of God was satisfied' referring to Christ's suffering for the sins of the world over several hours. However, non-ending suffering for unbelievers appears not to satisfy God's wrath over their own individual sin. This doesn't appear just to me and that is why I also am leaning toward annihilation as the final state of unbelievers. I don't think our sense of just and fair can be ignored because we interpret certain words like 'eternal' to apply in a certain way.

I raise these questions coming from a background where my father was a street corner, hell fire, preacher. He witnessed/proclaimed the Gospel to people every day and was one of the few I know that came quite close to really living out his belief in never ending torment. And reading the New Testament, I expected the same approach as my father and men like Jonathan Edwards but couldn't find it. So, why not ? I have some similar questions on the extent of the apostles involvement on social issues but thats another thread.

Anyway, I'm open to explanations as I work through my biblical worldview.

[J.Davis]

Hi Sudsy, Welcome to the forum!

I am one who believes the unsaved will be tormented in hell for all eternity. But I do not believe it because I have a need to believe it, I simply give my best interruption of the things God (both the father and Jesus) said. As I said in another thread, the character of God, the context in which the scriptures about hell are used, various biblical elements and my gut feeling lead me to believe that the unsaved will live forever and be tormented in hell. God has several reasons for giving the unsaved the results of their sin. Several scriptures say that the unsaved will be tormented for eternity, Jesus said it himself. Any scriptures that seem to contradict the scriptures that suggest the punishment in hell is eternal, mean something other than what they seem to say. God’s word does not contradict it’s self. It is easy to conclude (given many other scriptures) that anything meaning death or destruction as it relates to hell means torment, separation from life (God) etc.

But when something is said to be eternal, everlasting, forever, infinite or uses metaphors that suggest the same, things get a lot more complex, especially concerning the bible. If we are going to play with those words concerning hell and suggest that they do not mean without and end then atheist can play with the same words concerning things that pertain to God, Heaven, His Laws and his promises etc. At that point, in their minds, God’s word becomes a joke.

Also, if we are going to be fair about the whole matter, then we all deserve hell. But God Loves us way to much (more than we can imagine) not to give a way out.

God said he does not sin, there is no sin in him. But outside of sin, he will do whatever he wants to do (unless of course he said he would not) and he will do the things that need to be done for reasons only He can truly understand. He has a few matters to settle with the unsaved, those are his affairs. The unsaved should not get angry with Christians concerning hell (not saying you are doing this). Jesus said he would let it all go, he just wants to be accepted as God and shown some love and respect, who doesn’t?…Who, doesn’t want to be accepted for who they are and shown a little love and respect? I’m just the messenger here…I mean, the look I get from atheist sometime…gosh...LOL.

No one knows (well, maybe B.W ) how bad the lake of fire will be (Jesus said to do whatever it takes to stay out of it/it‘s really bad). But It’s not like people don’t have a choice, no one has to go to hell.

Yes, I do spend great (HUGE) amounts of my time doing God’s work. I love it more than anything and getting a new family member is the best thing ever! However, I do not spend a lot of time talking about hell at all, it’s not my style and there are much better ways to encourage someone to listen to that feeling they have, the one that keeps making them question, fight and push for the truth. But if I feel that mentioning the truth about hell will free someone from using it as a blindfold then I will bring it up.

But I would much rather concentrate on the good things and have everyone sing, dance, praise and worship until the world is perfect, everyone in their own style, it’s awesome!

So many people criticize God (not saying you are doing this) for so many things. Why say God is unjust for killing in the old testament and then say he is unjust for not killing in hell. We can’t have it all people!! Unjust if you do Unjust if you don't…The guy can’t win…LOL.

Enjoy the forum Sudsy!

[J.Davis]

Scriptures…..

Concerning the disciples, they talked about hell often and Jesus talked about it a lot.

Here are a few (and I do mean a few) Scriptures concerning hell.

Revelation 20:14-15

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

It means that Death is no longer possible and Hades is gone as well. All that is left is the lake of fire and without the existence of death, no one dies….Ever.

Jesus

Matthew 11:24 “Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

Matthew 13:41-43 41 “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 “Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Matthew 23:33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 5:29-30 29 “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 “If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Mark 9:42-43

42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

43 “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

Mark 9:45 “If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,

Mark 9:47 “If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

A persons worm does not die? It means ones body will never be consumed….

Luke 12:5 “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Others..

Isaiah 33:14 Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
“Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with continual burning?”

Revelation 14:9-11

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

And many, many more….

[J.Davis]

One more point...

God made it clear in the bible that losing just one of his Humans was one to many. It is extremely clear that he really, REALLY loves his creation.

If for nothing else (there are many more reasons), the unsaved have to atone for the loss of living eternity with God. God has to suffer the loss of their eternal love and fellowship, they were his creation and he loved them with a love that is beyond measure, he will be separated from his beloved creation forever....

The unsaved chose that, and they hate God, they are not his child, they reject him....

God will feel that loss for all eternity....The unsaved feel the pain of his loss for all eternity.

Sounds fair to me.

[B. W.]

Some people just don't realize how long an infinite period of time is. Imagine, after trillions and trillions of years of torment, you're still not even a second closer to the end. That's terrifying.

In any case, given that I haven't found any satisfying answers to this, I am now inclined to adopt Annihilationism.

Infinite punishment for finite sins argument is based on a false assumption that some sins are lesser than others. Let’s say that is true for a moment:

Is a one degree error on a flight path from one airport to another the same as a 20 degree error?

The answer is no, there is no difference. Both are errors and both will miss the intended destination by hundreds and hundreds of miles. It does not matter; both lead astray and miss the mark for a safe landing despite the different degrees strayed. Both errors will miss the mark and the plane crashes, lost.

The answer is that there is no degree difference for sin. All sin leads to the same ends.The Greek word often translated as sin used in our English bible simply means: to miss the mark, to stray, twist off course. Aristotle describe that - ἁμαρτία hamartía, sin – is an offence to the prevailing order; In other words, a twisting away from social order by challenging the prevailing orders norms and by outright breaking these norms to destroy the order.

Used in a Biblical context – miss the mark of the high calling God had for humanity by twisting this high calling to one’s own personal self interest: Challenging God’s order by pitting God’s norms against God’s own norms to achieve personal self interest.

This goes with the definition of the words translated evil (Grk - poneros) which means to corrupt others or self, to be evil-disposed by being malevolent, malignant, wicked… to cause corruption… etc

Therefore, sin twist away from God’s standards, plans, desires, etc by means of corrupting these standards, plans, desires. It does so by directly challenging, pitting God’s own standards against themselves, in order to create a new social order based on personal self interest. Or it can be a blatant twisting away to cause ruin or corruption. In either case, the true mark that God has for human purpose is totally missed by human beings.

It does not matter if sin is minor or major, it leads astray, corrupts all it touches by directly challenging God to act contrary to himself. The Just thing for God, a living God, true to himself to do, is to banish the sinner away to a place where the gift of life he gave is not violated, nor is the desire of their intelligence denied to a place where corruption is contained – forever. Isaiah 26:10 and Isaiah 24:22.

So – is a one degree error on a flight path from one airport to another the same as a 20 degree error?
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[Sudsy]

Infinite punishment for finite sins argument is based on a false assumption that some sins are lesser than others.

I agree that sin is sin and any sin falls short and sets us apart from a perfect and holy God. However, my reason for not accepting infinite, as in never ending, punishment for finite or temporal sins has to do with what is just. When it comes to being just or fair, Jesus appealed in His parables to what people thought was fair and right and if anything, He indicated that God was more merciful than what we would consider an adequate punishment or reward.

The Just thing for God, a living God, true to himself to do, is to banish the sinner away to a place where the gift of life he gave is not violated, nor is the desire of their intelligence denied to a place where corruption is contained – forever.

Or the Just thing for God is to judge everyone according to the light they have been given and determine what punishment and/or reward they should receive.

It seems to me that perhaps the idea of eternal torment, for some, has been accepted as a truth that must be retained and therefore, we need to consider God to be a certain way and arguments are then made and scriptures interpreted to justify that God has the right to punish forever and ever. The idea that God is predominantly loving and would never punish is the other extreme view, in my opinion.

So, some of us believers consider His mercy that He shows over and over again, to be what endures forever and His wrath will be satisfied without unending torment for some. Statistically over the past say 6,000 years there have been some 160 billion people on this planet. If 10% of these became believers in Christ, then something like 144 billion people, who God dearly loves, will end up going through endless torment. I do have trouble believing that this is what God means when He says He is willing that none should perish. And perish itself indicates an end. O well, I remain unconvinced at this point that eternal torment is a valid belief when you look at God's character throughout the entire scriptures.

[B. W.]

By causing the life God placed in man to cease into a non-being state, would be contrary to who God is as this would indict God as being not the living God and unable to keep the eternity placed in ones heart forever.

Ecclesiastes 3:14, “I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him.” NKJV

Ecclesiastes 3:11, “He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end….” NKJV

What is just for God and a creature of note is: one – granting that being what they desire more than God, sin, in a place forever confined exposing what their nature and true character is all about. Hell is naked before God…

Also note:

Mathew 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels NKJV

Since what God does regarding justice and ways endures forever, so will the everlasting fire, not annihilated into non-being but rather uncovers… what a person’s true nature and character really is about. Destruction has no covering…

Due to the nature of an eternal being, any grace shown in the hereafter would be rejected as it was already proven before that they’ll reject God. Therefore mercifully they’ll be confined reaping what they had sown. God granting them what they desire, life of sin and rebellion, in a place of eternal recompense confined is an act of love and mercy in that God does not deny himself or who and what He is – God.

Isaiah 26:10, “Let grace be shown to the wicked, yet he will not learn righteousness; In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

Next, the Infinite punishment for finite sins’ case is based upon a false premise of what torment is. In many persons who hold this view, claim that it is God who does the tormenting and torture. This is a false premise wrought out by bad doctrine and not what the bible reveals. God is not the tormenter or the happy torturer inflicting torture - See below for what makes eternal punishment i.e. recompense:

First, Torment belongs to the person – it is their own torment that torments as the principle cites in Revelation 14:11. God is not doing any torture or tormenting. The person’s own conscience does that.

Secondly, the principle of sowing and reaping (Gal 6:7 – Isaiah 3:11 – Psalms 62:12 – Job 34:11 – Jeremiah 32:19) God renders to each accord to his ways. What one sows they reap; therefore, torment involves reaping. What God does regarding judgment last forever (Ecclesiastes 3:17 and Ecclesiastes 12:14, “For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil.” NKJV and note Revelation 20:12)

Thirdly as Jesus stated in Matthew 25:41 that hell was originally designed for the devil and his angels, they too are there, willing to provide their own brand of torment…

Lastly, the Infinite punishment for finite sins’ case seeks to indict God’s wrath as being unjust to inflict just as Paul wrote about in Romans 3:5.

It does not matter what we think is best for us or sinners, what matter is what is best for God. It is best that God not deny himself or maybe we’ll all cease if he denies…
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[jlay]

So, some of us believers consider His mercy that He shows over and over again, to be what endures forever and His wrath will be satisfied without unending torment for some. Statistically over the past say 6,000 years there have been some 160 billion people on this planet. If 10% of these became believers in Christ, then something like 144 billion people, who God dearly loves, will end up going through endless torment. I do have trouble believing that this is what God means when He says He is willing that none should perish. And perish itself indicates an end. O well, I remain unconvinced at this point that eternal torment is a valid belief when you look at God's character throughout the entire scriptures.

How many of those refused to believe?
Would it be easier if the numbers were flipped? Would Hell be more believable if less people were going? I'm not sure how your reasoning holds up here.

[Sudsy]

B.W., all I can say is that I don't know how you can live with the bottom line of this kind of reasoning. I believe you are saying that God is being loving, merciful and just to give unbelievers what they are chosing - their own eternal, never ending torment.

Then one must be spending most of one's waking hours then warning people that they are chosing this end, right ? Otherwise, how can one love their neighbour as themself ? I sure would want believers pleading and bugging me every day to avoid such a place if I was unsaved ? But I see very little of this compassion in many of those who claim to believe in never ending torment ? Sometimes it even comes across as an elite attitude. I just don't get it.

Still no one has addressed the thought that the apostles in their evangelism did not speak of never ending torment. Did God want evangelism to just focus on the good side and no mention of the bad side ? Seems like the apostles had a very different view from the way they proclaimed the Gospel.

jlay - I'm not questioning hell but the extent of a period of punishment. If only one person was definitely about to receive never ending punishment (i.e. Hitler), I cannot comprehend the justice of such a sentence.

I think it would be easier for me to entertain the arguments for some degree of universal salvation, then never ending torment for the masses of humanity with my current biblical worldview. But I can live with not knowing the exact beginning of this world and the final ending of things and perhaps be a 'panmillinialist' as it all will pan out in the end. My guess is there will be some big surprises for many who have the beginning and the end all figured out.

[Canuckster1127]

Sudsy,

I understand the difficulties you're referencing. I have similar difficulties at time working through a lot of this.

The question however becomes what the basis of truth is going to be. For me to make the statement, "I have difficulty reconciling a literal hell as a place of eternal torment with God being a God of love" carries with it some assumptions that need to be looked at.

1. It puts me in the position of defining what is good and what is evil and as such I establish myself as God's judge and declare what I believe to be consistent in terms of God's nature and God's actions.

2. It elevates my perception and judgement over the message that God revealed through Jesus Christ and the Bible. In effect what that does is elevate natural revelation and my sense of moral appropriateness over Christ and the Bible.

3. I see too in your rationale (and I'm not trying to confront you personally in this, just the thinking) looking at different doctrines such as universalism and hell's duration and fitting what doctrines you want to entertain by how well they fit the framework you're putting together in these other realms.

That said, there is a lot to look at in terms of Hell and that doctrine and I think it might be possible that things such as Dante's Inferno and the Greek teaching of Hades etc. have influence the theology of the church in places and created a culturally accepted doctine that needs to be examined more closely scripturally. Do you see the difference in that? In one case we judge scripture and in the other we retain scripture as the source of authority (through Christ) and we seek to understand better. That means being willing to accept what we come to the conclusion that Scripture does indeed teach. Christians of sincere faith and good will to other Christians, can and do disagree on these things, but when the source is rooted in Scripture we're on much more solid and safe ground than elevating ourselves to the authority.

Does that make sense?

It's a controversial teaching for sure, but as B.W. notes, it's one of the most prevelant teachings in Scripture, although certainly not as vital as what Scripture teaches us about Jesus Himself.

Maybe step back for a moment from the issue and ask, what is it that is authoritative here and how might we seek to understand it better?

blessings,

bart

[B. W.]

...The question however becomes what the basis of truth is going to be. For me to make the statement, "I have difficulty reconciling a literal hell as a place of eternal torment with God being a God of love" carries with it some assumptions that need to be looked at.

1. It puts me in the position of defining what is good and what is evil and as such I establish myself as God's judge and declare what I believe to be consistent in terms of God's nature and God's actions.

2. It elevates my perception and judgement over the message that God revealed through Jesus Christ and the Bible. In effect what that does is elevate natural revelation and my sense of moral appropriateness over Christ and the Bible.

3. I see too in your rationale (and I'm not trying to confront you personally in this, just the thinking) looking at different doctrines such as universalism and hell's duration and fitting what doctrines you want to entertain by how well they fit the framework you're putting together in these other realms....

Sudsy, as Bart stated above – these are the points I am trying to convey: What we base truth on, do not establish one's self as God's judge, what did Jesus and the bible say about the subject, and one other point not mentioned which is: God's ways are not ours...
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[Sudsy]

I accept your admonishment that what we believe should be based on scripture but it appears that this is also implying that there is an interpretation of scriptures that support never ending torment when I don't believe there is.

I may have worded my posts in a way that appears I am looking at this from my own perceptions and/or feelings and/or sensitivites but I also have posted the challenge to look at how the early church proclaimed the Gospel and how they did not preach 'hell fire' and endless torment and I notice that no one has refuted this observation.

I have been judged also for not accepting a Calvinist TULIP view of Christianity based on my peceptions of fairness/feelings/or sensitivites and yet I think there is strong scriptural evidence for free will also.

I am not trying to judge who God is or what He will or should do anymore than those who believe in non-ending torment who may be trying to fit who God must be according to their own biblical interpretations.

Anyway, my main interest is on the application side of this belief. If one truly believes never ending torment to be true, how can one reconcile living a life that reflects little concern for the plight of others ? Just as faith without works is dead, so belief without supporting actions is just a head belief, in my opinion.

But, it appears that those issues are not going to be addressed here so I'll move on to other topics.

[Canuckster1127]

Hey Sudsy,

There are interpretations of scripture that lead some to the conclusion that hell doesn't exist or that hell as it is commonly taught in orthodox tradition doesn't exist or isn't eternal toment. That's entirely appropriate to examine in my opinion. I'll confess that I'm not as adamant on the presentation of hell as I was brought up to believe it. My source however in examining this is scripture. Please don't take my comments as implying that I was promoting any particular conclusion. I was simply looking at the means we employ to arrive at a position.

You're right. If hell is real and we love others as God loves us, there is no excuse for not making evangelism and missions the most important thing we can be about and doing. That's the core of the evangelical movement and the roots of it are found in preaching along this line that extends back to Jonathon Edwards, Charles Finney, Billy Sunday and is at the core of Billy Graham's ministry as well.

blessings,

bart

[Sudsy]

Please don't take my comments as implying that I was promoting any particular conclusion. I was simply looking at the means we employ to arrive at a position.

I agree with you that the means we employ is important and I think we must not isolate an interpretation of certain scriptures from the overall message in the scriptures to rightly divide the word of truth.

You're right. If hell is real and we love others as God loves us, there is no excuse for not making evangelism and missions the most important thing we can be about and doing.

I'm still not sure my point is clear and it is not about hell but rather the concept of a punishment for anyone that will be never-ending torment. IMO, it is not what we should be doing with this belief but rather what we will do if this belief is in our hearts as out of the heart flows the issues of life.

Perhaps if those who believe in endless torment would stop and consider the impact of such a belief on those they love who are unsaved and/or those who they loved who have died unsaved, it might cause them to completely re-prioritize their lives and, for instance, stop wasting precious time here posting on this forum. Is my view of how one should automatically respond to such a heart belief wrong ?

I like what scripture says regarding the early church when they were thrown in prison and told to shut up when released. They said they just couldn't shut up but they had to speak about Christ regardless of the consequences (my paraphrase). This, to me, is a heart belief. And yet we read nothing in the NT that these same disciples could not stop themselves from proclaiming never-ending torment. To me, scare tactics or not, which a guy like Jonathan Edwards was willing to use, would have to come out in their evangelism but it didn't so I tend to think they too did not understand unbelievers fate to be never-ending torment.

Anyway, I think I'm spinning my wheels and I appreciate all those who responded on this thread and their views.

[Canuckster1127]

I think I understand what you're saying.

I guess it boils down in some regards as to what we personally have the power to do and who is ultimately responsible for the destiny of another human being.

If I believed that it were completely or primarily up to me to affect the salvation and decision of another person, then that would indeed argue for my love for others (even a selfish love for those whom I directly know and care for) to motivate me to use every effort and waking moment.

I think your observation too about the nature of God is a legitimate one insofar as it is a Biblically based question to ask how to reconcile a loving God with eternal toment. It leads to several possibilities and these are not exhaustive.

Either we don't understand what love means when we apply it in the context of God or we confuse God's love for what we would do for others assuming we had the power of God (which gets back to that whole scenario of our judging whether God is right or wrong in His actions.)

Or we're not understanding correctly what the Bible teaches about hell (or hades or sheol or tartarus which are the other words used in the scripture).

Or we're taking on too much (or even too little) personal responsibility and assuming that God isn't in control with a plan sufficient to meet the needs of others.

And the list can go on.

What's important is to not only examine the logic of how we arrive at position but also look behind and ask what are the things we're assuming in the framework and are those things right.

bart