Deserving punishment?

[CeT-To]

Lets say there is some one born in an environment where the family is broken up, drugged up and always drunk and there was no love etc etc << that sort of environment which he/she then affiliated himself/herself with these type of people in the future and then dies .... does he/she deserve hell? Considering the fact that the life he/she was living is all she knew and told ( also raised up)

[jlay]

No one deserves Hell because of the environment they were raised in. And I assure you, no one will be condemned because of such. But these arguments fail to rightly understand just what salvation is, and also fail to understand why someone would be condemned.

I work with kids in that very position. Many have come to trust in Christ. Do they deserve salvation? No. (Many also reject Christ. More on that in a minute.) BTW, who deserves salvation? Well, according to the Word, no one. It is unmerited. Jesus said, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." John 3:16-21

Regarding belief. To believe in something, you have to have something to accept or deny. This would imply that anyone who is condemned has a spiritual decision to make, and that they have evidence to make it on. I have witnessed too many glorious testimonies of people in the most unreal situations coming to salvation to know that God is able to reach anyone who would come into the light. In fact, I serve and work side by side with many of these people. Amazing testimonies.
So, we are talking about a personal response regarding one's own personal spiritual standing, and it has nothing to do with what environment they grew up in. I heard recent testimony that there are literally thousands if not millions who have come to Christ in the Middle East. we don't hear about it, because they are underground due to the persecutions of radical Islam. All too often we fail to trust God, and His Spirit. And we tend to look at people and assume because of their circumtances that they haven't had a fair chance to be saved. And that because of their tough child hood that they aren't accountable for their own wicknedness before a holy God.

Every week we go into the inner-cities of Knoxville and we share the gospel of Christ with about 1,000 children who might otherwise never hear it. We do two 12 week semesters per year. So, if a child attends our sidewalk SONday school, they will hear 24 bible teachings, and 24 opportunities to repsond to the gospel in a year. Many of these children are with us from Kindergarten through 5th grade. If so, then they will have been witnessed to over 100 times, just through this one minisitry.(I have a handful of teen age boys who grew up in the program who now come to bible study with me on Monday nights. Imagine inner-city black kids, choosing to spend their Monday night hanging out with a bunch of old white guys.) Sadly, there are many of these children who will hear the gospel and will NOT respond. They will reject the message. The gospel, or the light brings with it only two outcomes. Salvation or condemnation.

If God gives someone light and they repsond to it affirmitively, what is God going to do? Offer them more light, of course. If they withdraw from the light what is going to happen? Light rejected increases darkness. Light received increases light.

All too often we think and say, what about this circumstance, or those people in the jungles of Africa. And we fail to look at ourselves and ask, what about me? And not be amazed that God reached us. I am amazed. There is no reason of man that I should be saved. God reached me in my jungle. In my abusive home.

[Gman]

Lets say there is some one born in an environment where the family is broken up, drugged up and always drunk and there was no love etc etc << that sort of environment which he/she then affiliated himself/herself with these type of people in the future and then dies .... does he/she deserve hell? Considering the fact that the life he/she was living is all she knew and told ( also raised up)

Basically we choose hell... But God is the judge of where our heart goes. In other words, I don't know...

[B. W.]

Lets say there is some one born in an environment where the family is broken up, drugged up and always drunk and there was no love etc etc << that sort of environment which he/she then affiliated himself/herself with these type of people in the future and then dies .... does he/she deserve hell? Considering the fact that the life he/she was living is all she knew and told ( also raised up)

JLay's comments sums it up very well.

When I pondered this same question - this bible passage from Luke 13:2, 3, 4, 5 - says much of what Jlay stated but in a far more direct manner, like shocking medicine.

The type of environment you mention, instead, exposes how Satan rules by robbery, killing, bringing to ruin to set up his kingdom. In this, Jesus came to break the yoke of slavery as spoken about in John 8:34, 35, 36 - we must be about the business of breaking these yokes so that any victim of such upbringing remains not a slave to repeat it but can see that by how you live your life , there is a another and better way. Be the light that draws them in - not repel them.

The example you provided is often used to dissuade people from finding Christ's freedom by attempting to make God look unfair so that they remain in an environment where the family is broken up, drugged up and always drunk and there was no love always repeating this cycle. That’s how the devil works. Look at certain genres of movies that promote people to be bound to bad lifestyles as another example of people being persuaded what normal is.

During World War Two there were many recorded instances of US sailors, whose ships had been sunk, surviving weeks adrift in the sea (USS Indianapolis). When rescue came, they refused and swam further out to sea due to their delirious imaginations. When Christ tosses a life line, we need to ask why so many refuse his life line and instead choose imaginations of God’s unfairness to justify swimming away. Let's be found not putting vain imaginations into peoples minds.

The suffering that Humanity inflicted upon Christ and his crucifixion repeats its insults in various subtle self justifying ways (Note Matthew 27:39-43 and Psalms 22:7-8). Yet, Christ Jesus said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do,” Luke 23:34

Let ourselves be the venue of that forgiveness and set the captives free...
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[smiley]

No one deserves Hell because of the environment they were raised in. And I assure you, no one will be condemned because of such. But these arguments fail to rightly understand just what salvation is, and also fail to understand why someone would be condemned.

I work with kids in that very position. Many have come to trust in Christ. Do they deserve salvation? No. (Many also reject Christ. More on that in a minute.) BTW, who deserves salvation? Well, according to the Word, no one. It is unmerited. Jesus said, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." John 3:16-21

Regarding belief. To believe in something, you have to have something to accept or deny. This would imply that anyone who is condemned has a spiritual decision to make, and that they have evidence to make it on. I have witnessed too many glorious testimonies of people in the most unreal situations coming to salvation to know that God is able to reach anyone who would come into the light. In fact, I serve and work side by side with many of these people. Amazing testimonies.
So, we are talking about a personal response regarding one's own personal spiritual standing, and it has nothing to do with what environment they grew up in. I heard recent testimony that there are literally thousands if not millions who have come to Christ in the Middle East. we don't hear about it, because they are underground due to the persecutions of radical Islam. All too often we fail to trust God, and His Spirit. And we tend to look at people and assume because of their circumtances that they haven't had a fair chance to be saved. And that because of their tough child hood that they aren't accountable for their own wicknedness before a holy God.

Every week we go into the inner-cities of Knoxville and we share the gospel of Christ with about 1,000 children who might otherwise never hear it. We do two 12 week semesters per year. So, if a child attends our sidewalk SONday school, they will hear 24 bible teachings, and 24 opportunities to repsond to the gospel in a year. Many of these children are with us from Kindergarten through 5th grade. If so, then they will have been witnessed to over 100 times, just through this one minisitry.(I have a handful of teen age boys who grew up in the program who now come to bible study with me on Monday nights. Imagine inner-city black kids, choosing to spend their Monday night hanging out with a bunch of old white guys.) Sadly, there are many of these children who will hear the gospel and will NOT respond. They will reject the message. The gospel, or the light brings with it only two outcomes. Salvation or condemnation.

If God gives someone light and they repsond to it affirmitively, what is God going to do? Offer them more light, of course. If they withdraw from the light what is going to happen? Light rejected increases darkness. Light received increases light.

All too often we think and say, what about this circumstance, or those people in the jungles of Africa. And we fail to look at ourselves and ask, what about me? And not be amazed that God reached us. I am amazed. There is no reason of man that I should be saved. God reached me in my jungle. In my abusive home.

I think you're making some very unwarranted conclusions here. It's a sociological fact that the factor of "when, where and under what circumstances you're born in" is one of the determining factors in what religion you will adopt.

So, as much as it is hard to believe, there are Muslims, Hindu and Buddhists, who are just as convinced that their religion is true and Christianity is false as you are about theirs. No doubt, there may be some amazing exceptions to this, Hindus who have turned to Christianity and such, but in most cases, you are going to stick with the religion that was dominant in your environment.

And this just makes the whole argument from Divine Hiddenness so much more difficult to resolve. . .

[jlay]

I think you're making some very unwarranted conclusions here. It's a sociological fact that the factor of "when, where and under what circumstances you're born in" is one of the determining factors in what religion you will adopt.

I don't deny that at all. I just get frustrated when we fail to trust in God's sovereignty.
The reality is that God is the one working beyond all these things. No one is going to hell because they were born in the wrong circumstance.

One of the guys that works with me in ministry was a hopeless case. He was dealing drugs by the time he was 15. He had Christian neighbors across the street who refused to witness to him because they said he was hopeless. They would even dissuade other Christians from talking to him. He is now a powerful minister of the Gospel.

We just had a missionary to India return home. She spent years in Muslim and Hindu areas, where Christians are killed and jailed for proselytizing, winning people to Christ. And it was through the most subtle covert method you could imagine. Truly born of God. I can't even describe it here for fear of her groups safety.

So, as much as it is hard to believe, there are Muslims, Hindu and Buddhists, who are just as convinced that their religion is true and Christianity is false as you are about theirs.

Yes, but you are the one making unwarranted conclusions. You are inferring that they are condemned because of their upbringing. There are millions of atheists who are convinced in their position. Many who have had ample evidence presented to them.

God's hand is not too short. He will reach those who will call on His name.

[jlay]

Also Smiley.
It would be great if you could be specific about your criticism, and offer something in reply. I really don't mind being criticized or disagreed with, but your MO has become one of a drive by critic who is quick to point fingers of where this or that is wrong, and yet offer no solution or alternative. Just saying, "your conclusions are wrong," with no specifics, no correction, is just getting plain old. Peace.

[smiley]

Yes, but you are the one making unwarranted conclusions. You are inferring that they are condemned because of their upbringing.

No, I'm not. I'm inferring that they disbelieve because of their upbringing. Whether or not there is a causal relationship between disbelieving for those not sufficiently informed and being condemned is another topic.

This much is a sociological fact. For people in Egypt, Christianity is a foreign, "dangerous" belief they've been taught is a damnable religion from their birth. The drug addict you've mentioned, I entirely believe that he came to the faith the way you describe it. Had he been a drug addict in Pakistan, however, there's very little doubt that he would be a proponent of Islam now.

There are millions of atheists who are convinced in their position. Many who have had ample evidence presented to them.

And many, many more who have not, and never will in their lifetime. What do you with these?

lso Smiley.
It would be great if you could be specific about your criticism, and offer something in reply. I really don't mind being criticized or disagreed with, but your MO has become one of a drive by critic who is quick to point fingers of where this or that is wrong, and yet offer no solution or alternative. Just saying, "your conclusions are wrong," with no specifics, no correction, is just getting plain old. Peace.

I see four possible solutions:

1) Chalk it all up to God's "mysterious ways"

2) Adopt the Calvinist portrayal of God who does not love everyone, and therefore, does not want everyone to be saved

3) Adopt Inclusivism

4) Reject Christianity

All of them, except 1), seem perfectly plausible.

There is also William Lane Craig's Middle Knowledge argument, which I can't be bothered to explain now (you can look it up on his site), but I think is incredibly far-fetched.

[jlay]

And many, many more who have not, and never will in their lifetime. What do you with these?

I don't do anything with them. At least not by myself. God does not judge people for what they do not know. He judges according to what Christ mentions in John 3.

I see four possible solutions:
1) Chalk it all up to God's "mysterious ways"

2) Adopt the Calvinist portrayal of God who does not love everyone, and therefore, does not want everyone to be saved

3) Adopt Inclusivism

4) Reject Christianity

All of them, except 1), seem perfectly plausible.

There is also William Lane Craig's Middle Knowledge argument, which I can't be bothered to explain now (you can look it up on his site), but I think is incredibly far-fetched.

Yes, YOU see four possible solutions. That certainly doesn't limit it to those four. I see Christ. He is the solution. And people born into those oppressive places ARE coming to Christ. With no help from you or I.

Certainly there is more to #1 than just mocking what we are incapable of knowing. Flat out, we are incapbable of knowing all the ways of God (Isaiah 55:7-11) and how he beckons to man. We also can not minimize the wickedness of man, as Christ also points out in John 3. And Paul further explains in Romans 1 and 2. We 'assume' that everyone is innocent. That is wholly wrong. Man is a fallen being. The question is regardless of how 'good' their life appears, or how unfair the circumstance may be, are people still condemned?
I reject the hyper Calvanist model.
Rev 5:7
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
John 3:16, and countless other verses, which speak to God's sacrifice being sufficient for all.

[mandelduke]

Lets say there is some one born in an environment where the family is broken up, drugged up and always drunk and there was no love etc etc << that sort of environment which he/she then affiliated himself/herself with these type of people in the future and then dies .... does he/she deserve hell? Considering the fact that the life he/she was living is all she knew and told ( also raised up)

There is only one reason someone will go to hell, is for rejecting Christ. It is very upsetting to me that Christens portray my God, as someone just waiting for you to mess up, were he car through a bolt of lightning down from heaven and smite you! Maybe these passages will help you understand, it is not Gods will that anyone be punished.

John-10;10-11
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John1;14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

2Peter-3;9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Psalm 136
1 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good.
His love endures forever.

Matt18-12;14
12"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

[CeT-To]

mmhmm! thanx guys ! I think i understand now

[smiley]

And many, many more who have not, and never will in their lifetime. What do you with these?

I don't do anything with them. At least not by myself. God does not judge people for what they do not know. He judges according to what Christ mentions in John 3.

I mean how you fit them into your philosophical framework. If there are people who hear the gospel, but never hear any convincing reasons to believe it, how can they be blamed for not believing?

Note that the vast majority of people who walked the planet earth fit in this category.

Yes, YOU see four possible solutions.

Yes, well, you asked me to give my perspective.

That certainly doesn't limit it to those four. I see Christ. He is the solution. And people born into those oppressive places ARE coming to Christ. With no help from you or I.

Again, I acknowledged that there are a few exceptions to this. But so what? There are also Christians who convert to other religions all the time. And in most cases, this is because they genuinely find the reasons for believing them more persuasive.

Certainly there is more to #1 than just mocking what we are incapable of knowing. Flat out, we are incapbable of knowing all the ways of God (Isaiah 55:7-11) and how he beckons to man. We also can not minimize the wickedness of man, as Christ also points out in John 3. And Paul further explains in Romans 1 and 2. We 'assume' that everyone is innocent. That is wholly wrong. Man is a fallen being. The question is regardless of how 'good' their life appears, or how unfair the circumstance may be, are people still condemned?
I reject the hyper Calvanist model.
Rev 5:7
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
John 3:16, and countless other verses, which speak to God's sacrifice being sufficient for all.

Are you implying some kind of universalism here? If not, I have no idea what your point is.

As for "mystery of God", I have no inherent problem with that, believe that if it makes you feel better. But in my opinion it is essentially a lazy excuse to justify believing in propositions that contradict one another.

[B. W.]

Smiley, we have given you ample time to vent but by your remarks you clearly demonstrate that you honestly know nothing of Christians.

I do call into question whether you are saved our not and am wondering why you hate Christians so much to side with opponents points of views all the time?

Were you molested as a child or something like that that causes your venting? Big man stole your lollypop? Shunned at church at one time?

We’ll I take it that you are gaming the system here and all you want to do is vent your hate and ignorance…

From your tone – we can tell a tree by its fruit – your fruit thus far is to attack and side with all opponents of Christianity - your despise Christ...

Therefore, what would you have Christians to do to satisfy you? Go to the gas chamber? Drink poison cool aid? Hang themselves? What is it?

You want us to give all our resources away – if so you start first…prove your own love superior to all others… prove it.

Don’t accuse all Christians as not giving or doing things to help poor and the needy nor mock us for desiring to save the unborn. State your good works…

And Have a nice day
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And many, many more who have not, and never will in their lifetime. What do you with these?

I don't do anything with them. At least not by myself. God does not judge people for what they do not know. He judges according to what Christ mentions in John 3.

I mean how you fit them into your philosophical framework. If there are people who hear the gospel, but never hear any convincing reasons to believe it, how can they be blamed for not believing?

Note that the vast majority of people who walked the planet earth fit in this category.

Yes, YOU see four possible solutions.

Yes, well, you asked me to give my perspective.

That certainly doesn't limit it to those four. I see Christ. He is the solution. And people born into those oppressive places ARE coming to Christ. With no help from you or I.

Again, I acknowledged that there are a few exceptions to this. But so what? There are also Christians who convert to other religions all the time. And in most cases, this is because they genuinely find the reasons for believing them more persuasive.

Certainly there is more to #1 than just mocking what we are incapable of knowing. Flat out, we are incapbable of knowing all the ways of God (Isaiah 55:7-11) and how he beckons to man. We also can not minimize the wickedness of man, as Christ also points out in John 3. And Paul further explains in Romans 1 and 2. We 'assume' that everyone is innocent. That is wholly wrong. Man is a fallen being. The question is regardless of how 'good' their life appears, or how unfair the circumstance may be, are people still condemned?
I reject the hyper Calvanist model.
Rev 5:7
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
John 3:16, and countless other verses, which speak to God's sacrifice being sufficient for all.

Are you implying some kind of universalism here? If not, I have no idea what your point is.

As for "mystery of God", I have no inherent problem with that, believe that if it makes you feel better. But in my opinion it is essentially a lazy excuse to justify believing in propositions that contradict one another.

[Sudsy]

My 2 cents - we Christians are required to proclaim the Gospel message - Romans 10:13-15. And I believe God has whatever other means He will use to give everyone a fair chance to respond because He is a just God. However, regardless of a person's religious or non-religious setting, it is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that convinces a person of the Gospel. So, there is nothing too hard for God. Scripture even says a rich person can enter the Kingdom, although it is hard, because all things are possible with God.

There are all kinds of circumstances that don't appear to be a fair chance in our thinking but God is not hindered by any of them. He is God and nothing is impossible with Him.

[smiley]

I am so, so, so frustrated by that pile of lies, childish inflammatory remarks and ignorance I can't bring myself to respond to it.

Therefore, what would you have Christians to do to satisfy you? Go to the gas chamber? Drink poison cool aid? Hang themselves?

This. . . this is just amazing. Absolutely fantastic.