Infinite punishment for finite sins

[Kurieuo]

I once sided, very briefly, with the Annihilationist position so I can sympathise with Sudsy's position. I was lead to it via Scripture, however then brought back around via Scripture.

At the end of the day, if an Annihilitionist advocates God extinguishing of life on the grounds it would be wrong (unmerciful) of God to leave someone in eternal torment, then I think this unsound. However, if this is the only way one can understand in their finite knowledge how an all-loving God could condemn some, then that I get.

If it matters, I do not believe God purposefully designed a place of torture for those who reject Him. Rather, it is a place of necessity to contain those who do reject Him. Such are not tortured by God, but rather by their own consciousness and awareness to their everlasting situation. The source of all truth, good, peace, righteousness, light and what-have-you is withdrawn from those who reject Christ forever. They are left to a world of their own without such things.

Two questions can be posed here which can add a lot of weight to the reasoning behind Annihilationism. Surely those who experience such an eternal fate would much prefer oblivion? And if so, surely if God is merciful and loving as we believe that He would at least grant such requests?

Given I find Annihilationism inadequate at explaining the full extent of Scripture (recommend Two Views of Hell by Edward William Fudge and Robert A. Peterson), I believe that whatever is entailed in our "being made in God's image" means our core being is indestructible, and/or God has reasons that extend higher than mercy for eternally condemning in hell those who reject Christ and His forgiveness.

[Sudsy]

Hi Kurieuo, nice to hear from another view.

For me, it matters whether or not one accepts that we are all immortal beings or not. I, personally, do not think that being made in the image of God is proof enough to say that we are immortal beings. There are quite a variety of thoughts about what being made in the image of God is all about. I do believe that believers will put on immortality at the resurrection as stated in scripture and be forever with the Lord. But the second death for unbelievers, IMO, as supported in scriptures, is destruction. After their punishment, there is no further purpose for them to continue to exist. I guess this is where we part in our understandings.

I'm curious - how does your view of an unbeliever's eternal state as you described it, affect how you feel about the lost ? What level of compassion are you feeling ? I am having trouble with the seemingly cold and indifferent attitudes that seem to surface from those who believe in a state of never ending torment. Does your view of a place of conscious regret (if I understood it right), push you to evangelize and warn people not to go there ? I'm trying to understand how our beliefs affect the way we live them out.

You don't need to share this openly if this is not comfortable or for other reasons but this is one of the main reasons I challenge views of the nature of hell. There are heart beliefs and there are head beliefs. Heart beliefs, to me, drive our actions. Any thoughts on this are welcomed.

[B. W.]

Sudsy, we can all understand and sympathize with you but all we can ask is for you remain true to the bible...

That is all we can do is ask. We present the case and let you decide on your own....

Look at Romans 2:5. 6, 7, 8, 9 again:

“ But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS"

“7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek..." NKJV

How can rending accord to ones deeds be non-existence if they did not commit the sin of non-existence? How is that just recompense that is based solely on reciprocalness?

Verse 9 states - tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil - not 'non-existence, on every soul of man who does evil'...

Verse 8 states they’ll receive wrath… not non-existence…

Paul speaks of Hell in his own way…

Romans 5:9, 10 - "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." NKJV

People are enemies of God – storing up retributive recompense wrath – not non-being…

Let’s be true to the doctrine of annihilationism usage and definition of words. You must have to apply the meaning of non-existence in all cases the words death, grave, perishing, destruction are used. Let’s try Romans 6:3

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?" NKJV

When did Christ non-exist?

Luke 20:38 - “For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

For He is not a God of non-existence but of the living…

The principle spoken about God revealed 2 Sa 14:14 is profound:

"For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him..."

The means God devises in order to restore a banished one is explained in Romans 5:9, 10. Note it says Banished one – not non-existing ones. Why? - yes we die, but God does not take away life… Lines up with what God does endures forever and placing eternity in the heart as well as being a God of the Living in the fullest sense of the word. If this was not so – then explain how Satan managed to rebel in treason without being zapped into non-being leading one third of the angels in rebellious treason against God?

Devil said in Genesis 3: 4 – ‘You shall not surely die (non-exist)?’

Adam and Eve could see the serpent still existed – he was there talking to them. They joined the rebellion. Devil indeed twist God’s own words to his advantage…

Humanities mortality dies, the body dies, the spirit returns to God who judges where one spends eternity Hebrew 9:27…

Annihilationism leads to mocking God by twisting word meanings, all in order to appease man’s conscience/ Non-existence is just that – non-being – a state of bliss of nothingness. It is an escape from judgment – it acquits the guilty.

Nahum 1:3 - "The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked..."NKJV

Isaiah 57:21 - "There is no peace," Says my God, "for the wicked."NKJV

Isaiah 3:11 - "Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him; for the work of his hands shall be done to him." JPS

Says it will be ill with him - sickness, ruin, decay as he meted out it is meted back...

Everlasting Perishing, Ruin, Everlasting Destruction, means recompense, not non-existence. Non-existence implies the peace of nothingness…

Peace a cessation of hostility…

Annihilationism goes against the nature and character of a Holy God… demanding him to grant peace to the wicked. An everlasting Hell is more to be feared than a state of future non-being, that is why so many are frightened by it and want to change its duration...

Please consider what Kurieuo wrote below as that is the truth...backed up by the bible and verified...

If it matters, I do not believe God purposefully designed a place of torture for those who reject Him. Rather, it is a place of necessity to contain those who do reject Him. Such are not tortured by God, but rather by their own consciousness and awareness to their everlasting situation. The source of all truth, good, peace, righteousness, light and what-have-you is withdrawn from those who reject Christ forever. They are left to a world of their own without such things.

But God sent his Son to save us from such a fate...
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[Sudsy]

B.W. you continue to distort the view of annihilationism that I believe makes most sense. I take it that you either want to suggest to everyone that there is only one view and that view involves no punishment and no wrath or you just don't understand what some annihilationists believe.

Yes, unbelievers are storing up wrath. Yes, there is a hell. Yes, unbelievers will be punished. Will this punishment last forever, as in never ending torment ? - NO !!!!! And that is a growing understanding by many believers, like it or not. Obviously, you don't like it.

Anyway, I apologize where these posts get a bit nasty in trying to make a point and/or challenge this traditional view. I go back to admitting that I do see through a glass darkly and don't want to give anyone the impression that when it comes to this topic that my view is the truth and nothing but the truth. I suggest you may want to consider that also in your point of view.

[ChrisB]

Hi, my first post on this forum.

Just a comment regarding those who believe in infinite as in 'never ending torment' for the unsaved -

You folk who believe this and also believe you are to love your neighbour as yourself, must be spending almost all of your waking moments pleading with people to believe in Christ and escape from this type of judgment. If you are not, I would say this belief you have is just a head belief.

Personally, I believe in a judgment and a fair sentence given out by God but since I do not read in the New Testament where the apostles were 'hell fire' preachers, I think they likely understood more about what Jesus was saying about hell than most of us. The Gospel is 'good news' but proclaimed more in the sense of freedom from the bondage of sin and reconciliation with God than escaping from a final place of unending torment.

Now I suppose I have stuck my neck out in my first post but I'm pretty thick skinned and do enjoy hearing how other believers view this topic. My current belief is that there will be a judgment and sentence and punishment for all who reject Christ but it will not last forever but until it serves it purpose and ends in destruction/perishing. I can't begin to comprehend how one would live their life as a loving Christian if they truly believed in their heart that hell was a never ending place of torment unless they were frantically involved trying to witness to everyone to try to snatch them from such a place.

John calls the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) the Second Death (Rev. 21:8). Moreover, he tells us that such torment will last "forever and ever", at least for those who worship the Beast (Rev. 14:9, 10, 11), and for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10). Jesus also refers to people who will be there forever in the former verse, as do Peter and Jude (2 Peter 2:17, NKJV; Jude 7, Jude 13, NKJV) If Gehenna is the Second Death, then the final destruction you speak of would be a technical "third" death, which is no where spoken of in Scripture.
Forever and and ever means forever and ever. If Hell is not eternal, than neither is Heaven. That is my belief.

[smiley]

ent unless they were frantically involved trying to witness to everyone to try to snatch them from such a place.
John calls the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) the Second Death (Rev. 21:8). Moreover, he tells us that such torment will last "forever and ever", at least for those who worship the Beast (Rev. 14:9, 10, 11), and for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10). Jesus also refers to people who will be there forever in the former verse, as do Peter and Jude (2 Peter 2:17, NKJV; Jude 7, Jude 13, NKJV) If Gehenna is the Second Death, then the final destruction you speak of would be a technical "third" death, which is no where spoken of in Scripture.
Forever and and ever means forever and ever. If Hell is not eternal, than neither is Heaven. That is my belief.

Very similar apocalyptic language is used in Isaiah 34:9-10

The fire that will consume Edom will burn “night and day” and “shall not be quenched.” Its smoke “shall go up forever” and no one will pass through this land again “forever and ever.”

[J.Davis]

I’m curious to know if Annihilationist were butchering God’s word in Jesus’ Day.

Jesus: Guy’s, about hell, I meant that that the fire, the punishment, the weeping and gnashing of teeth, your bodies, the torment, the pain and the destruction (deterioration, could be many kinds) will all last for eternity....Just so we're clear...it will all last forever and ever...do not go to hell!!!...again...I meant Forever!!!

And regardless of what he said people still say...Nooooo...he didn’t mean forever (Jesus: ) that would be evil. All they can do is to get a number of people to side with their logic and say...yeah, if Jesus would do that than he is evil. It does not matter how many people disagree with what Jesus said. He said eternity for everything and all other scriptures that say what he did in part fit into one of the things he said but he brings it all together and said that every factor will last for eternity.

All parents have the power to discipline their children, so that they do not hurt themselves. And the children both love and fear the parent. They fear because they know they will be punished for their wrong. If there is no consequence for wrong doing than children have no reason to do right or stay away from things that hurt them because they are ignorant. The human heart loves sin and none of us are without sin. If there was no consequence than many would never consider doing what is good, what is right. Rebellious children resist authority and have a heart that will not do anything other than what they feel is right. Nothing can make them change or reconsider there ways. They fight their parent and only hurt themselves. God uses good judgment, providing a punishment so severe that even the hardest of hearts will consider listening to his voice, but some will always have their way and God will not allow chaos in heaven, he is in charge there.

It is not good to strip God of the full magnitude of his Love...Or some will never consider listening to his voice.

Isaiah 34:9-10

It’s say’s that God is going to do the same to them as he did to Sodom and Gomorrah which was an example of the kind of people who will spend eternity in hell and are burnt by eternal fire.

An example ...If I say that a globe is an example of the earth and then crush it, it does not mean that I destroyed the Earth, just the example, the earth still lives on. And the bible has many metaphors such as this, many are complex and some are seriously complex. The garden of Eden story has many metaphors within one metaphor (many meanings). The tree of life (God and good choices) the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Satan and immoral choices) and humans in the middle to choose which tree to eat from. A metaphor for God’s law, our conscience, it sill lives on. And there are tons of metaphors such as this in the bible.

Example...Not the real thing...

Here is an interesting scripture...

Exodus 3:2 The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.

God knows how to make fire that does not consume....He is not limited to human reasoning....

[smiley]

An example ...If I say that a globe is an example of the earth and then crush it, it does not mean that I destroyed the Earth, just the example, the earth still lives on. And the bible has many metaphors such as this, many are complex and some are seriously complex. The garden of Eden story has many metaphors within one metaphor (many meanings). The tree of life (God and good choices) the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Satan and immoral choices) and humans in the middle to choose which tree to eat from. A metaphor for God’s law, our conscience, it sill lives on. And there are tons of metaphors such as this in the bible.

Yes, right on! So, since the fire and smoke from Edom are not still ascending today, that gives us sufficient justification to also interpret the nearly identical descriptions from the highly symbolic book of Revelation metaphorically.

(I also hear that the phrase "forever and ever" can be translated as "for ages upon ages", but don't take my word for it)

As for Jesus, Jesus never said Hell was eternal. He said that punishment was eternal, which annihilationists affirm.

[J.Davis]

This is a quote from the annihilationist link..

Jude 1:7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent "a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire." It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, not because of its duration but because of its permanent results.

Notice how they cut out just what they needed...The full scripture reads..

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

So, the city Sodom and Gomorrah indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh? No!!! the people in the city did! And it was an example! which they conveniently cut out! Maybe it was the type of fire that would be in hell but it is 100%! clear that he was talking about the people and not the city as well as it just being an example..

God should leave the people alive on earth as they burn for all eternity? How can anyone not get this?

[Sudsy]

God should leave the people alive on earth as they burn for all eternity? How can anyone not get this?

And how can you believe this and be wasting your time here posting on this forum when millions upon millions will end up in such a place, according to your interpretation ? How can you not get this J. Davis and others who claim to believe this ?

God uses good judgment, providing a punishment so severe that even the hardest of hearts will consider listening to his voice

And yet did you not say, or was it B.W., it is not your 'style' of evangelism to warn people of such an end ? We don't have even one recording in the New Testament that the apostles preached this type of endless punishment. Why not ? I pose because they did not believe it and not because it was their 'style' of evangelism. Did they hear what Jesus taught that included both the terms eternal and destroy and perish ? Yep, but did this send them out on a hell fire preaching crusade ? Nope.

But suppose these followers of Jesus did believe in never ending torment and also believed they are to love their neighbours as themselves as Jesus also taught, then how could they not preach hell fire ? Is this how they would treat themselves ? No, so we can conclude that either they had very little compassion for the lost or the concept of never ending torment was not part of their belief.

It is not good to strip God of the full magnitude of his Love

Agreed. So stop doing it.

[B. W.]

Lest see if I do not have annihilationist doctrines correct:

Matthew 25:46 everlasting punishment means lasting but just an age, then going into an eternal flame to be annihilated into nothingness but God’s wrath burns forever – punishing? Flame not quenched…

So after all the evil is done away with, poof all gone into non-being, God’s wrath still burns with a fire that is not quenched to continue punishment on treasonous angels and people who no longer exist!!!

Is not that pointless for a greatest intelligent all knowing all wise God to do? Continue his wrath on nothing???

Again – Peace: cessation of hostility – rest from all hostility

God himself says this will not happen to the wicked… be granted such cessation of hostility – rest from all hostility…

Non-being provides cessation of hostility – rest from all hostility does it not?

Some Annihilationist doctrine believes people will suffer in hell for awhile for the demand of justice, then be destroyed into non-being…in the lake of fire…

The bible and its record of what God says about this matter as having no end teaches otherwise…

An everlasting Hell in the lake of fire is more terrifying than a temp amount of punishment then non-being...

Next Point..

And yet did you not say, or was it B.W., it is not your 'style' of evangelism to warn people of such an end ? We don't have even one recording in the New Testament that the apostles preached this type of endless punishment. Why not ? I pose because they did not believe it and not because it was their 'style' of evangelism. Did they hear what Jesus taught that included both the terms eternal and destroy and perish ? Yep, but did this send them out on a hell fire preaching crusade ? Nope.

But suppose these followers of Jesus did believe in never ending torment and also believed they are to love their neighbours as themselves as Jesus also taught, then how could they not preach hell fire ? Is this how they would treat themselves ? No, so we can conclude that either they had very little compassion for the lost or the concept of never ending torment was not part of their belief.

You are speaking to a person who travels, been on radio, and TV teaching on hell, heaven, prayer, salvation, and yes on God's love, etc and etc.. all over the country as well as to others where ever the Lord so leads so you are forgiven of your snide remark...

Read 2 Peter sometime soon... They did warn of Hell and eternity each in there own manner. Jesus taught on it. It is what drives the Heart of Billy Graham and others - tossing a life line to the lost - a few grab the lines, others swim away of their own accord...

Love does that...tosses the life line as it is aware of the reason for the life line...

Maybe the Lord is tryingto shake you up so you can be one of his people choosen to bring in His harvest...

Motivated by what you learned - or just swim away...
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[Sudsy]

Lest see if I do not have annihilationist doctrines correct:

Don't think so. Death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences. And where the fire is not quenched can mean that eternal fire cannot be put out by anyone or anything until it serves it's purpose of utter destruction. We are not denying that Jesus said what He said but rather we are saying there are alternative understandings to what He said and these fit well with how His followers proclaimed good news and not the bad news.

Do you believe God's wrath was satisfied for the sins of the world when Jesus died on the cross ? I suspect you will agree yet you do not think this same God will be satisfied unless His wrath continues unending for billions upon billions of years and on for the sins of those who do not accept eternal life ?

You are speaking to a person who travels, been on radio, and TV teaching on hell, heaven, prayer, salvation, and yes on God's love, etc and etc.. all over the country as well as to others where ever the Lord so leads so you are forgiven of your snide remark...

Sorry you take this as a 'snide remark'. I have tried to get you to see what one fellow once put into words when he said that if he believed in this eternal torment as some Christians say they do, he would crawl across England on his hands and knees over cut glass to save a single soul. I'm just trying to say that I agree with what he is saying would be the case for anyone who truly believed this. Obviously you do not agree that this is how one would be impacted to live with such a belief. You are not alone, most believers state this belief as fact but live otherwise, IMO.

Another testimony of someone who changed their view and why - http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php

[J.Davis]

Smiley...

Yes, right on! So, since the fire and smoke from Edom are not still ascending today, that gives us sufficient justification to also interpret the nearly identical descriptions from the highly symbolic book of Revelation metaphorically.

No, not at all..

Does revelations say that some physical object on earth was burning? Nope!

That was a description of what is going to happen! Example... Description, Two completely different things.

As for Jesus, Jesus never said Hell was eternal. He said that punishment was eternal, which annihilationists affirm.

Well, if hell is not eternal...The fire sure is...LOL.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:47 “If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire

Daniel 12:2 again: "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt (abhorrence, hatred, detestation, great aversion).”

ETC...There is no way that God did not mean never ending burning...And I didn’t even have to rewrite the bible.

(I also hear that the phrase "forever and ever" can be translated as "for ages upon ages", but don't take my word for it)

Yeah, I know that game, I mentioned it early on.

The Greek word that is translated into eternal is aionion. The word is used because of the context and it is the correct word. The Greek word for age is aion and means a period of time. I mentioned before that context was very important. But even so, if they did use aion it would say ages, still never ending. But every major bible uses eternal the same...it really does not matter...all the same.

Here is an example of the word aion beginning used

Acts 15:18

New International Version- that have been known for ages.

New Living Translation-he who made these things known so long ago.'

English Standard-Version-known from of old.’

King James Bible-Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Here is one that translates to eternal..

World English Bible-All his works are known to God from eternity

All means from the beginning and that he has been making things known for as long as Man can recall. And no mater if they use tormented for eternity or tormented for ages...It all means with no end. No way out of it. But like I said, most use eternal because it is the correct word to use given the context. And because of the context of the above scriptures, ages is correct...

[Sudsy]

Since Billy Graham was referred to, here are a couple quotes by Billy when in an interview with Robert Schuller -

"I think that hell essentially is separation from God forever. And that is the worst hell that I can think of. But I think people have a hard time believing God is going to allow people to burn in literal fire forever. I think the fire that is mentioned in the Bible is a burning thirst for God that can never be quenched." Billy continued - "Jesus used three words to describe hell. ...The third word that He used is 'fire.' Jesus used this symbol over and over. This could be literal fire, as many believe. Or IT COULD BE SYMBOLIC. ...I've often thought that this fire could possibly be a burning thirst for God that is never quenched. What a terrible fire that would be-- never to find satisfaction, joy, or fulfillment!"

Even Billy strayed from traditional teachings on hell.

He also said - "God is calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they’ve been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don’t have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they’re going to be with us in heaven."

Another straying from traditional exclusive views. Schuller was 'thrilled' to hear Bill state this.

[Canuckster1127]

A few clarifications for this thread that may be of help for those involved.

1. There is not an "official" doctrine with regard to hell stated on the home page and statement of faith of the board. You can look for yourself here

http://www.godandscience.org/beliefs.html

Rich does have a page with a discussion of hell here:

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/hell.html

It echoes a lot of the elements here, but again, it's not an official statement of belief by which we moderate or diminish other points of view participating.

2. There is a broad spectrum of beliefs and understandings within Christendom, historically and contemporarily as related to the hell and how to reconcile what hell is, and how the different terms in scripture relate to a physical or spiritual reality.

3. While it may seem (and probably is true) that a preponderance of moderators and regular posters here gravitate toward a particular understanding of this, that doesn't mean that other views cannot be expressed or discussed. The focus in such a discussion should be the topic, the scriptural, theological and historical support and understandings and while discussion can and likely will get passionate because of the importance of these beliefs in many contexts, it should be remembered that salvation is a positive response to a proactive act of God that may include in many contexts the existence of hell (or what some see us as being saved from), but there are other traditions and understanding that have no less a view of salvation and Christ that understand hell differently.

So, in view of that, please keep the focus on the issues and avoid getting them tied into the persons and personalities to where things become more heated than is necessary.

Not saying that this is out of hand at all. I just think this is a good time for such a reminder to guard against that possibility.

blessings,

bart