Infinite punishment for finite sins

[BavarianWheels]

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The truth is that the wages of sin is death. Full stop.
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[Sudsy]

Glad to see you admit it is annihilationist interpretation who God is – it is not from the bible, is it?

You don't give up do you ? Wrong again, it is from the bible. You seem to think you can take a few verses and this defines who God is and how He must act and yet you don't seem to understand that this is just your interpretation of God using a few selected texts. This reminds me of what cults do. I think you would probably criticize those you consider to be cults that do also use selected scriptures to support their beliefs and have their own understanding of who God is. For instance, a universalist considers verses that indicate that God will, in the end, be all in all and will cause every knee to bow and acknowledge Him as Saviour and be saved. Their view of punishment is to correct our thinking until we accept the truth. They view God as infinitely merciful and loving and His wrath has limits. I'm not sure I've presented this believe exactly but the point is, various views within Christianity use scripture as support.

It is impossible for God to lie, deny himself, his gifts, callings, promises, there is no variation or shadow of turning.

I agree with everything you said in this section of your response. The problem, once again, is that God will be true to Himself but He is not obligated to be true to who you think He is. He does not have to live up to your understandings of Him. I don't seem to be getting anywhere with you on this.

Why do you cite another website and bog people down reading opinions of people who insert wrong word meanings into their writings that cause God to act contrary to himself?

Because it is just your opinion that this is what these sites are saying. Some of us see their arguments and scriptural support and view of God as something very worth considering and not so easily dismissed as you do. We know what your arguments are as we read them over and over again (or just ignore the repetition) but some on other sites have a better way of explaining why they believe what they believe than I can so I refer to them.

Truth in these matters comes from comparing God’s written record about himself as the measure of truth, not human sentimentality.

Here again is an area you are stuck on believing. You insist that the 'A' view is based on human sentimentality and not scripture. For some 'A' viewers, this may be their primary motive. But as you can read, many have provided many arguments from scripture for both God's character and why God will ultimately destroy the wicked. I listened to a radio talk show through the Gospel Coaltion website yesterday where both views were being discussed by two strong supporters of each view and there was much respect given to each other. They had two very different concepts of the nature of God's character in some areas and what the finality of man will be but they both were in agreement that hell is a place to be avoided.

Not what you want to hear – is it???

It doesn't both me to hear what you believe but you do sound like a broken record that just won't quit. But I guess this is your mission and calling. And I accept your use of colour and other features available here as long as you don't start using huge fonts and shouting at me

I stick with the truth about God, not as I like to interpret it (which you falsely accuse me of doing), but rather by what it teaches me about who God is.

And so do others with different views. I am not falsely accusing you of interpreting scripture as you would like it to say but rather your learnings from scripture involve your interpretations and your interpretations are the result of your biblical worldview. You seem to suggest that you have some inside knowledge on what scriptures teach that gives you the knowledge of absolute truths. I appreciate your conviction on what you believe but I'm not too impressed by your resistance to allowing that other believers read the same scriptures and get a different point of view. I can't seem to get that across to you, so I'll give up (at least for now as I have failed to keep away from this thread before as I think you need some help )

[Sudsy]

Bavarian Wheels -

The truth is that the wages of sin is death. Full stop.

Amen. However, I think you just provoked another sermon on what death this is referring to.
We'll see if B.W. and J. Davis can resist preaching on this one.
Whoops, O well, I'm sure I'm forgiven.

[BavarianWheels]

I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.

Jesus' words. Is this truth?

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Christ died. Full stop. Christ was raised from the dead. Full stop. Christ died to sin. Full stop. If we are dead in Christ, then our debt is paid (through Christ). The debt is death...not eternal torment/pain. The finality of death is eternal and forever...
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[Byblos]

I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.

Jesus' words. Is this truth?

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Christ died. Full stop. Christ was raised from the dead. Full stop. Christ died to sin. Full stop. If we are dead in Christ, then our debt is paid (through Christ). The debt is death...not eternal torment/pain. The finality of death is eternal and forever...
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Why didn't Adam die the day he sinned?
Why don't we die the moment we sin?
What happens to the damned on judgment day when all the dead are arisen? Will they be arisen only to die again? If yes, then it's the second death that's the wage of sin, not the first. So what is the first death other than simply a physical death and not the wage of sin?

and so on and so on ...

I recommend reading the following links here and here for more in-depth explanations on the topic (particularly Article 3 in the first).

[BavarianWheels]

I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.

Jesus' words. Is this truth?

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Christ died. Full stop. Christ was raised from the dead. Full stop. Christ died to sin. Full stop. If we are dead in Christ, then our debt is paid (through Christ). The debt is death...not eternal torment/pain. The finality of death is eternal and forever...

Why didn't Adam die the day he sinned?

Seems obvious to me from the wording that it can be taken one of two ways...

but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.

Either he would die immdiately or he would die eventually. Seems to me the latter is what happened and if God's word is Truth...what argument is there?

Why don't we die the moment we sin?

We'd never make it past conception. Also see point above.

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

What happens to the damned on judgment day when all the dead are arisen? Will they be arisen only to die again? If yes, then it's the second death that's the wage of sin, not the first.

Then we are in agreement...it's the physical and spiritual death...the death that only God can bring.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;

So what is the first death other than simply a physical death and not the wage of sin?

It is a physical death only...see the previous answer.

Edit: I mistakenly inserted "B.W." in quoting when it was Byblos I was quoting. Sorry for the mixup.

[Byblos]

Why didn't Adam die the day he sinned?

Seems obvious to me from the wording that it can be taken one of two ways...

I don't get it. What two ways? He didn't die the day he sinned. In fact he went on to enjoy a long, full life and was fruitful and greatly multiplied. Albeit not in the garden which, incidentally, was the direct result of him sinning. So what was the immediate 'death' that God spoke of? That's right, banishment from the garden (i.e. separation from God), not physical death.

but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.

Either he would die immdiately or he would die eventually. Seems to me the latter is what happened and if God's word is Truth...what argument is there?

I would have to agree with you if the text had indicated what you seem to arbitrarily insert in it, i.e. the eventually part. There is nothing in the text to indicate a time factor. It is yet another simple statement that says if you eat the fruit you will die, full stop ( ).

Bav, that was me you quoted, not B.W. Please edit your previous post (I fixed the quoted below).

Why don't we die the moment we sin?

We'd never make it past conception. Also see point above.

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

And yet we have, that alone should tell you something about the nature of death Gen 2:17 is speaking of.

What happens to the damned on judgment day when all the dead are arisen? Will they be arisen only to die again? If yes, then it's the second death that's the wage of sin, not the first.

Then we are in agreement...it's the physical and spiritual death...the death that only God can bring.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;

Doesn't that strike you as a bit superfluous though? I mean why? For what purpose exactly do all these dead people who are already destined for annihilation to be woken up, given a stern lecture then destroyed again? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

So what is the first death other than simply a physical death and not the wage of sin?

It is a physical death only...see the previous answer.

Finally a point we can agree on.

[BavarianWheels]

Why didn't Adam die the day he sinned?

Seems obvious to me from the wording that it can be taken one of two ways...

I don't get it. What two ways? He didn't die the day he sinned. In fact he went on to enjoy a long, full life and was fruitful and greatly multiplied. Albeit not in the garden which, incidentally, was the direct result of him sinning. So what was the immediate 'death' that God spoke of? That's right, banishment from the garden (i.e. separation from God), not physical death.

I would argue that death is separation from God. If one dies, then you are physically and spiritually separated from God. They go hand in hand. Anything apart from God cannot live if God is the Giver and Sustainer of life.

but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.

Either he would die immdiately or he would die eventually. Seems to me the latter is what happened and if God's word is Truth...what argument is there?

I would have to agree with you if the text had indicated what you seem to arbitrarily insert in it, i.e. the eventually part. There is nothing in the text to indicate a time factor. It is yet another simple statement that says if you eat the fruit you will die, full stop ( ).

So then we agree. I'm simply stating the same thing you are. Death is the wage. See point above.

Bav, that was me you quoted, not B.W. Please edit your previous post (I fixed the quoted below).

I edited my post. Sorry for that.

Why don't we die the moment we sin?

We'd never make it past conception. Also see point above.

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

And yet we have, that alone should tell you something about the nature of death Gen 2:17 is speaking of.

Does the scripture not teach everyone is dead in their sins apart from Christ? I don't think we are discussing the question of 'Why does God allow sinners to live.", but rather what is the wage of sin. If it is death, then we agree that death is separation from God

What happens to the damned on judgment day when all the dead are arisen? Will they be arisen only to die again? If yes, then it's the second death that's the wage of sin, not the first.

Then we are in agreement...it's the physical and spiritual death...the death that only God can bring.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;

Doesn't that strike you as a bit superfluous though? I mean why? For what purpose exactly do all these dead people who are already destined for annihilation to be woken up, given a stern lecture then destroyed again? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Why ask me? It's the scripture that speaks this truth. "even those who pierced him;"

By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
They will say of me, `In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.' "
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.

It is written:

" `As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
`every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.'

So what is the first death other than simply a physical death and not the wage of sin?

It is a physical death only...see the previous answer.

Finally a point we can agree on.

It is part of the wage of sin, but all will face Judgement and all will confess. Final Judgement for the lost is handed at the second death.

He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

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[Sudsy]

I would argue that death is separation from God. If one dies, then you are physically and spiritually separated from God. They go hand in hand. Anything apart from God cannot live if God is the Giver and Sustainer of life.

Just to jump in and say I agree with you on this view.

P.S. Bavarian Wheels, that is some mean lookin avatar you have. Thats not a passport photo is it.

[BavarianWheels]

I would argue that death is separation from God. If one dies, then you are physically and spiritually separated from God. They go hand in hand. Anything apart from God cannot live if God is the Giver and Sustainer of life.

Just to jump in and say I agree with you on this view.

...and hence why on the cross Jesus cries out,

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

P.S. Bavarian Wheels, that is some mean lookin avatar you have. Thats not a passport photo is it.

Hi Sudsy. No, it's no PP photo. It's me at my most gracious.
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[Byblos]

I would argue that death is separation from God. If one dies, then you are physically and spiritually separated from God. They go hand in hand. Anything apart from God cannot live if God is the Giver and Sustainer of life.

Just to jump in and say I agree with you on this view.

P.S. Bavarian Wheels, that is some mean lookin avatar you have. Thats not a passport photo is it.

And this is precisely where we disagree. Death is not a separation from God, otherwise all who died would have been separated from God. The resurrection conquered physical death, it is of no consequence. The exact opposite is true, however, it is that separation from God that is death, spiritual death. Fear not that which kills the body but fear that which kills body and soul (Matthew 10:28).

[J.Davis]

Ok, So far B.W and I have been able to use full scripture to prove our point, we have taken the scripture used by Annihilationist and shown how there use of the scripture contradicts with God’s word. We take the word eternal literality, meaning a true physical existence (in relation to life). We have not minced words and we have keep metaphors and scripture in their respective state.

And we have answered all questions relating to the subject ...etc, etc etc....

Wheels...

Jesus did not die the death of an unsaved sinner (period). Jesus’ death covers those who accept him and his death has no effect on those who do not, those who do not accept Jesus go to hell. If Jesus’ death covered the unsaved than everyone would go to heaven, but they don’t, so it does not. Also, those who reject the Holy Ghost (believe in their heart that he does not represent God and speaks on his behalf/the unsaved) will never be forgiven/can never pay their debt so they will always owe God Mark 3:29.

Everyone...

Because of the Annihilationist reasoning many scriptures can be alerted form the meaning they would have if eternal was literality a true physical existence (in relation to life).

This is what Annihilationist mean when they say that the effects of the unsaved are eternal....

People say that Elvis is immortal, he lives forever, the one and only king of rock, the king lives! When people speak of Elvis in this way, they mean Elvis’ message, songs and nature will live forever.

So, Annihilationist are saying that the disgrace and disgust (etc) of the unsaved will be eternal. Their disgraceful sinful life on earth (because they do not have forgiveness for their sins) will be an everlasting memory of disgrace. Of coarse, using this logic one can cause all kinds of problems when applied to the bible. If you (everyone) wish to believe that God intended for eternal to be taken as a metaphor for an everlasting memory (effect as Annihilationist say) than that is your right.

But the Annihilationist version of the true word of God is extremely weak and open to abuse everything that uses the word eternal. The Annihilationist meaning of eternity governs their version of the bible. For Annihilationist, many factors concerning Jesus and God or Jesus himself can just be a memory. Jesus with his worshipers, proclaiming that one day the king will return (Just like Elvis). You could say this about Jesus using the true word of God as well. But you can not prove it using the bible (the traditional view as they call it/the truth). But with the Annihilationist version of the bible. The return of Jesus can just be a myth, he can be a memory, a nature and message that will live forever...

And it can be proven with Annihilationist own bible...

There are way to many contradictions in Annihilationist belief and we have talked on many of them in this thread. The bible does not teach that the unsaved will cease to exist.

I am in the process of trying to define a few things but not for the Annihilationist.. I do not support their view at all.

[Sudsy]

Hi Sudsy. No, it's no PP photo. It's me at my most gracious.

Thanks for the warning.

[Sudsy]

J. Davis, more slams against the 'A' view using weak logic and faulty presentations of the 'A' view. Hope you are having fun.

Why is it that you guys can't swallow your pride and accept that we see through a glass darkly and you just could be seeing things wrong ? Could I have it wrong ? You bet. Could anyone be postively sure they know exactly what God is going to do with punishment ? I don't think so. But somehow you see it as clear as a bell. Even Rich Deem says this in one article on hell 'It is possible that hell will involve both torment (until the day of judgment) and eventual destruction.' after showing all kinds of verses supporting destruction.

I think your approach is called 'sticking one's head in the sand'.

[BavarianWheels]

Ok, So far B.W and I have been able to use full scripture to prove our point, we have taken the scripture used by Annihilationist and shown how there use of the scripture contradicts with God’s word. We take the word eternal literality, meaning a true physical existence (in relation to life). We have not minced words and we have keep metaphors and scripture in their respective state.

Ok. You take the word eternal literally. Cool by me. If eternal means exactly what it means literally, how is it one can suffer eternal fire, yet the eternal fire not be burning still?

Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities--and also the vegetation in the land. But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

Looks like a picture of the last days to me.

They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

"Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever."

Jesus did not die the death of an unsaved sinner (period). Jesus’ death covers those who accept him and his death has no effect on those who do not, those who do not accept Jesus go to hell. If Jesus’ death covered the unsaved than everyone would go to heaven, but they don’t, so it does not. Also, those who reject the Holy Ghost (believe in their heart that he does not represent God and speaks on his behalf/the unsaved) will never be forgiven/can never pay their debt so they will always owe God Mark 3:29.

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Was not the sin of the world placed on Christ?

Who else stands with J.Davis on this?

More in a bit...
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