Infinite punishment for finite sins

[Sudsy]

Well, enough is enough. Obviously, you guys think of yourselves as infallible and should run for the next Pope.

I guess the only way to shut you up with your distortions and repeated arguments is to refuse to debate with you any further. I thought perhaps you were reasonable people but I see you are not. I think most people can see through the logic of your arguments and use of certain scriptures to know that what you say is just your interpretations and do not prove you have a lock on truth. It really astounds me to hear someone say they take all scripture literally. That in itself reflects an erroneous way of interpreting scripture.

I have referred to enough scriptures for anyone who is interested in the 'A' view to check it out elsewhere where guys like you cannot distort the view. When I refer to scriptures you just come back stating that the 'A' view interpretations are wrong. Such hatred towards this view.

I may appear to you to be 'insolent' because I just don't allow someone with whatever credentials (does not matter to me who you are) to try to brainwash me with their opinions and call them absolute truths. Guys like you need push back when they act infallible with their beliefs. I've ran into dogmatic people before and it's too bad they get on these forums because they don't share views and allow for the views of others rather they just claim they have the truth and go about putting down the view of others. Appears to be some control issues behind all this that need to be dealt with. And whats even worse they see this as some kind of ministry.

My recommendation to both of you is to look very closely at everything that Jesus said and did and how He dealt with Pharisees who thought they knew it all. He put them straight because He knew all truth. He is the Truth. You guys are just interpreters of truth and we all see through a glass darkly and know in part until someday we get to see the Truth face to face.

The problem, once again, is that God will be true to Himself but He is not obligated to be true to who you think He is, Sudsy.

This was a B.W. response to me saying the same thing about him. The difference is that I agree with the comment above whereas B.W. shows no humility to think that he just might not have a perfect view of God and how God truly is. Such arrogance I have not seen for some time.

Best you have done so far is to mock, scoff, ridicule, poked fun of…

I don't think I have made any mocking of the 'T' view but I have razzed you guys with your attitudes toward other beliefs. As the author of this forum, Rich Deem, I leave the possibilty that ultimate destruction could be correct. I guess you are suggesting, he too, has mis-understood who God is to allow for this.

I know you don't like being told that your belief is just a head belief anyway because if it was a heart belief you would be out winning souls where the bulk of sinners are. They are not keying into this forum. Seems you are very cold hearted in the way you live out this belief in real life. Think about it. Does you compassion level and accompanying activity correspond with your stated belief ?

Now don't get angry with me because that would be giving into emotions and that is what 'A' view people based their belief on right ? Strictly emotions.

Suggestion - write a book on your views and give everyone a link to it so we don't have to read the same thing over and over again here. Save yourself a lot of typing and free up your time to reach out to those heading for unending torment of the most unbelievable kind.

And this time I'm completely through with this thread. I am not qualified to discuss matters with infallible people. carry on if you must.

[B. W.]

J.Davis wrote:...we have taken the scripture used by Annihilationist and shown how there use of the scripture contradicts with God’s word. We take the word eternal literality, meaning a true physical existence (in relation to life). We have not minced words and we have keep metaphors and scripture in their respective state.

Ok. Once again, since you take the word eternal literally meaning a true physical existence...

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,* and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so.

why do you take the first part of Mark 9:47 as literal as you do the last part.

Wheels, please keep my statements in context....

I said....

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

God gives us wisdom and helps us understand his words and his ways. We learn more and more of him as we continue to have fellowship with God. I take the Christian meaning of the scripture literally. And it corresponds perfectly with all other verses.

J.Davis wrote:Ok, So far B.W and I have been able to use full scripture to prove our point,


BavarianWheels wrote:What does this mean? Really... I suppose you've not been reading the posts, but picking and choosing what to answer to. There have been many uses of "full scripture" (whatever that means...I don't recall the book of Ruth used for your counter points) to base this on.

I was referring to the annihilationist link Wheels...

This is a quote from the annihilationist link..

Jude 1:7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent "a punishment of eternal [aionios] fire." It is evident that the fire that destroyed the two cities is eternal, not because of its duration but because of its permanent results.

Notice how they cut out just what they needed...The full scripture reads..

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

What they did, changed the meaning of the scripture.

You conveniently disregard AGAIN, scripture given you. Please address the Hebrews passage above....and notice I don't care to cut out parts, I'm happy to address the whole.
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Hebrews 6:1-3 - eternal Judgment is eternal...

Begins after one dies in the holding center called Hell, sheol, the pit, the prison, etc, (Isaiah 24:22, Job 26:5-6) until the spirit is re-united with the body at the final Judgment which re-unites the body with the person's eternal spirit. Final Judgment is what it means – the Final commuting of a sentence of judgment one has been already been indicted on earlier (Hebrews 9:27).

Again, for God to deny himself his own word spoken to himself regarding the eternal image humanity was fashioned after, placing eternity in the heart, takes not away life, being the Living God in the fullest sense of the word Living God means, annihilationism leads to God denying himself, dening his word declared. Annihilationism seeks to force God into this: make God deny of his own character and nature.

For God’s own sake, he does not take away life, nor will he destroy the eternal image of eternity within the heart, nor will he go against himself in any manner or form: By God being just to himself, he is just to all…-
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[BavarianWheels]

Hebrews 6:1-3 - eternal Judgment is eternal...

Begins after one dies in the holding center called Hell, sheol, the pit, the prison, etc, (Isaiah 24:22, Job 26:5-6) until the spirit is re-united with the body at the final Judgment which re-unites the body with the person's eternal spirit. Final Judgment is what it means – the Final commuting of a sentence of judgment one has been already been indicted on earlier (Hebrews 9:27).

Again, for God to deny himself his own word spoken to himself regarding the eternal image humanity was fashioned after, placing eternity in the heart, takes not away life, being the Living God in the fullest sense of the word Living God means, annihilationism leads to God denying himself, dening his word declared. Annihilationism seeks to force God into this: make God deny of his own character and nature.

For God’s own sake, he does not take away life, nor will he destroy the eternal image of eternity within the heart, nor will he go against himself in any manner or form: By God being just to himself, he is just to all…-

So you don't, conveniently changing again, take eternal judgement to mean eternally standing in the court hearing "guilty"? Do you realize there is a difference between judgement and sentence?

So now, interpret "eternal judgement"...remember that J.Davis has said that you and he take eternal literal.

Sorry to see you go, Sudsy, but that's the way this place runs.
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[B. W.]

Well, enough is enough. Obviously, you guys think of yourselves as infallible and should run for the next Pope.

I guess the only way to shut you up with your distortions and repeated arguments is to refuse to debate with you any further. I thought perhaps you were reasonable people but I see you are not. I think most people can see through the logic of your arguments and use of certain scriptures to know that what you say is just your interpretations and do not prove you have a lock on truth. It really astounds me to hear someone say they take all scripture literally. That in itself reflects an erroneous way of interpreting scripture.

I have referred to enough scriptures for anyone who is interested in the 'A' view to check it out elsewhere where guys like you cannot distort the view. When I refer to scriptures you just come back stating that the 'A' view interpretations are wrong. Such hatred towards this view.
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Sudsy, you haven't answered any of the questions posed to you. Annihilationist interpretations forces God to act contrary to himself - God will not deny himself... or do this…

We will compare annihilationist interpretations with the very character of God and see if they stand...something you for some odd reason seem terrified of doing...

Again, for God to deny himself his own word spoken to himself regarding the eternal image humanity was fashioned after, placing eternity in the heart, takes not away life, being the Living God in the fullest sense of the word Living God means, annihilationism leads to God denying himself, denying his word declared. Annihilationism seeks to force God into this: make God deny of his own character and nature.

For God’s own sake, he does not take away life, nor will he destroy the eternal image of eternity within the heart, nor will he go against himself in any manner or form: By God being just to himself, he is just to all…
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[B. W.]

Hebrews 6:1-3 - eternal Judgment is eternal...

Begins after one dies in the holding center called Hell, sheol, the pit, the prison, etc, (Isaiah 24:22, Job 26:5-6) until the spirit is re-united with the body at the final Judgment which re-unites the body with the person's eternal spirit. Final Judgment is what it means – the Final commuting of a sentence of judgment one has been already been indicted on earlier (Hebrews 9:27).

Again, for God to deny himself his own word spoken to himself regarding the eternal image humanity was fashioned after, placing eternity in the heart, takes not away life, being the Living God in the fullest sense of the word Living God means, annihilationism leads to God denying himself, dening his word declared. Annihilationism seeks to force God into this: make God deny of his own character and nature.

For God’s own sake, he does not take away life, nor will he destroy the eternal image of eternity within the heart, nor will he go against himself in any manner or form: By God being just to himself, he is just to all…-

So you don't, conveniently changing again, take eternal judgement to mean eternally standing in the court hearing "guilty"? Do you realize there is a difference between judgement and sentence?

So now, interpret "eternal judgement"...remember that J.Davis has said that you and he take eternal literal.

Sorry to see you go, Sudsy, but that's the way this place runs.
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what does the bible reveal in Isaiah 24:22, Job 26:5-6?
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[BavarianWheels]

Well, enough is enough. Obviously, you guys think of yourselves as infallible and should run for the next Pope.

I guess the only way to shut you up with your distortions and repeated arguments is to refuse to debate with you any further. I thought perhaps you were reasonable people but I see you are not. I think most people can see through the logic of your arguments and use of certain scriptures to know that what you say is just your interpretations and do not prove you have a lock on truth. It really astounds me to hear someone say they take all scripture literally. That in itself reflects an erroneous way of interpreting scripture.

I have referred to enough scriptures for anyone who is interested in the 'A' view to check it out elsewhere where guys like you cannot distort the view. When I refer to scriptures you just come back stating that the 'A' view interpretations are wrong. Such hatred towards this view.
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Sudsy, you haven't answered any of the questions posed to you. Annihilationist interpretations forces God to act contrary to himself - God will not deny himself... or do this…

We will compare annihilationist interpretations with the very character of God and see if they stand...something you for some odd reason seem terrified of doing...

Again, for God to deny himself his own word spoken to himself regarding the eternal image humanity was fashioned after, placing eternity in the heart, takes not away life, being the Living God in the fullest sense of the word Living God means, annihilationism leads to God denying himself, denying his word declared. Annihilationism seeks to force God into this: make God deny of his own character and nature.

For God’s own sake, he does not take away life, nor will he destroy the eternal image of eternity within the heart, nor will he go against himself in any manner or form: By God being just to himself, he is just to all…

This is so wrong. Anyone reading this thread can see he's given much back as explanations/interpretations and scripture. The problem is, because you can't see God doing exactly what His word says He will do/is the result of sin (Death), you and J.Davis simply come back with, "your wrong" and post texts for your "proof". Yet you disregard what Christ says that death is the wage of sin...and you deny this because you think God does not "remove" life...yet there's flood, famine, and even directions from God to go and conquer.

what does the bible reveal in Isaiah 24:22, Job 26:5-6?

These say nothing in regard to eternal judgement...in fact it goes against "literal" interpretation of eternal.
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[Sudsy]

Sorry to see you go, Sudsy, but that's the way this place runs.

To Bav and Bav only -

Well, I'll try another topic and try to find some more reasonable Christians to share with. I appreciate your arguments on the subject and good luck. Seems they hang unto a very minority view of what it means that God placed eternity in man's heart as if this made man immortal. But this is how they choose to see things and to build a belief around it. I hope this is not a common habit of these guys or I will not be spending much time here other than to look through Rich Deem's creation. There is some very interesting things he has provided here to read. Sounds like a remarkable man.

[BavarianWheels]

Sorry to see you go, Sudsy, but that's the way this place runs.

To Bav and Bav only -

Well, I'll try another topic and try to find some more reasonable Christians to share with. I appreciate your arguments on the subject and good luck. Seems they hang unto a very minority view of what it means that God placed eternity in man's heart as if this made man immortal. But this is how they choose to see things and to build a belief around it. I hope this is not a common habit of these guys or I will not be spending much time here other than to look through Rich Deem's creation. There is some very interesting things he has provided here to read. Sounds like a remarkable man.

I'm glad we have a common point of view on this. I'm glad someone shares this point. I've felt very alone here for many years.
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[J.Davis]

Titus 1:9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

1 Timothy 4:16 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Ok, I do my best to follow God’s word. Bad doctrine is to be rebuked...that’s all to it. We can negotiate when it comes to many other things. But God gives specific instructions concerning doctrine and holds all of us accountable. We are not to agree with people who teach false doctrine concerning the word of God. Nor are we to agree that both doctrines can be accepted because that leaves room for people to be deceived. Many people and many groups can not prove their doctrine against the bible so they put much effort into causing enough confusion so that people might believe that they have a choice cornering God’s word and way. It does not matter what I think about people, a person can be awesome or even my best friend. If I enter a public place and give a message, believing that God wants someone delivered from a stronghold they have on their life, and my message is challenged or distorted than I will do my best to defend it. It is all about God’s creation.

At this point in time, where I live (in America) everyone wants their way. And the world continues to indulge in the flesh, sin and all forms of immorality. But God’s (I Am/Jesus‘) church has law’s and his saints are to do things his way. God knows best and there is a reason for everything he say’s.

God’s word is infallible, I believe that I am right, and according to God’s word I can not compromise with Annihilationist concerning the bible..period. It has absolutely nothing to do with who you are as a person Sudsy or you Wheels. I believe that the Annihilationist way interferes with the way God gives people out of the lake of fire. And I believe that the Annihilationist teaching concerning finite torment in hell is wrong. It changes God’s word and the Annihilationist belief can cause behavior and character changes that God’s true word (traditional/truth) would not. It can also cause confusion against the truth etc...

I’m just following God’s word, to agree with false teachings is wrong...no way around it..

The Annihilationist view concerning hell is wrong...And everyone accounts for their own words, I am confident in mine.

[Byblos]

God’s word is infallible, I believe that I am right, and according to God’s word I can not compromise with Annihilationist concerning the bible..period. It has absolutely nothing to do with who you are as a person Sudsy or you Wheels. I believe that the Annihilationist way interferes with the way God gives people out of the lake of fire. And I believe that the Annihilationist teaching concerning finite torment in hell is wrong. It changes God’s word and the Annihilationist belief can cause behavior and character changes that God’s true word (traditional/truth) would not. It can also cause confusion against the truth etc...

I’m just following God’s word, to agree with false teachings is wrong...no way around it..

The Annihilationist view concerning hell is wrong...And everyone accounts for their own words, I am confident in mine.

That's fine, well, and dandy. But unless you (in general) have some kind of private revelation to the contrary, you must acknowledge that others with opposing (and possibly contradictory) views are as equally confident in their belief and are just as likely to believe they are following God's Word as they see it.

[BavarianWheels]

God’s word is infallible, I believe that I am right, and according to God’s word I can not compromise with Annihilationist concerning the bible..period. It has absolutely nothing to do with who you are as a person Sudsy or you Wheels. I believe that the Annihilationist way interferes with the way God gives people out of the lake of fire. And I believe that the Annihilationist teaching concerning finite torment in hell is wrong. It changes God’s word and the Annihilationist belief can cause behavior and character changes that God’s true word (traditional/truth) would not. It can also cause confusion against the truth etc...

I’m just following God’s word, to agree with false teachings is wrong...no way around it..

The Annihilationist view concerning hell is wrong...And everyone accounts for their own words, I am confident in mine.

That's fine, well, and dandy. But unless you (in general) have some kind of private revelation to the contrary, you must acknowledge that others with opposing (and possibly contradictory) views are as equally confident in their belief and are just as likely to believe they are following God's Word as they see it.

I think Sudsy has mentioned this same idea at least once in this thread, maybe twice and he's been shot down as one professing a "heresy".

Thanks Byblos.

Hebrews 6:1-3 - eternal Judgment is eternal...

I'd still appreciate an interpretation from J.Davis and B.W. with special attention to literal interpretation of eternal.
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[B. W.]

This is so wrong. Anyone reading this thread can see he's given much back as explanations/interpretations and scripture. The problem is, because you can't see God doing exactly what His word says He will do/is the result of sin (Death), you and J.Davis simply come back with, "your wrong" and post texts for your "proof". Yet you disregard what Christ says that death is the wage of sin...and you deny this because you think God does not "remove" life...yet there's flood, famine, and even directions from God to go and conquer.

what does the bible reveal in Isaiah 24:22, Job 26:5-6?

These say nothing in regard to eternal judgment...in fact it goes against "literal" interpretation of eternal.

You missed my prior postings where it was made clear that when God slays mortal life it is to bring such people into Judgment - Ezekiel 26:20 mentions this about those from the flood, etc...

Therefore he does not take away life because a person continues on; thus, God escapes the charge of cosmic sin consisting in committing absolute murder into non-being. He does not violate life. It is impossible for God to commit sin (Job 34:10, 11, 12)

Isaiah 24:22, Job 26:5-6 - state that those that face judgment spoken in Hebrews 9:27 do not cease to exist but continue on, Isaiah 24:22 stands on its own...

For God’s own sake, he does not take away life, nor will he destroy the eternal image of eternity within the heart, nor will he go against himself in any manner or form: By God being just to himself, he is just to all…

Annihilationism states that it is unjust to have Infinite punishment for finite sins, yet, would it not be unjust as well as partial, as well as prove that God denies his own words he spoke in Jeremiah 17:10 - "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.”

And confirmed in Job 34:11 "For the work of a man will He requite unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways. “ JPS

Shall God render unto a petty thief the same as an axe murderer - by blasting both off into non-existence? How can God be true to his word and declarations with such an injustice He did by not rendering each according to ones deeds?

Infinite non-existence for finite sins???
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[B. W.]

Sorry to see you go, Sudsy, but that's the way this place runs.

To Bav and Bav only -

Well, I'll try another topic and try to find some more reasonable Christians to share with. I appreciate your arguments on the subject and good luck. Seems they hang unto a very minority view of what it means that God placed eternity in man's heart as if this made man immortal. But this is how they choose to see things and to build a belief around it. I hope this is not a common habit of these guys or I will not be spending much time here other than to look through Rich Deem's creation. There is some very interesting things he has provided here to read. Sounds like a remarkable man.

I will review annihilationist doctrine and show from their own interpretations of scripture that these do indeed cause God to deny himself and commit sin... in the upcoming days…

Thanks for the posts Sudsy...

Why can't you answer the questions?
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[J.Davis]

That's fine, well, and dandy. But unless you (in general) have some kind of private revelation to the contrary, you must acknowledge that others with opposing (and possibly contradictory) views are as equally confident in their belief and are just as likely to believe they are following God's Word as they see it.

Byblos, that is exactly what my post say’s. Just a general statement about what the bible says concerning the matter. If one believes that their interpretation of God’s word is the truth than they should do as I have said and we all take account for what we say. But we absolutely should not agree with what we believe to be false teachings concerning the word of God.

[BavarianWheels]

Therefore he does not take away life because a person continues on; thus, God escapes the charge of cosmic sin consisting in committing absolute murder into non-being. He does not violate life. It is impossible for God to commit sin (Job 34:10, 11, 12)

I'm going to take this point by point because (even though I'm guilty of this too) you tend to make very long posts which makes me grab at one point and then maybe lose out on commenting on all. If you can indulge an idiot like me...make a point, I'll counter (heh) and we move like this.

So then I'm really concerned about the above point you make that "God escapes sin in committing murder" and your claim is because life continues on.

Let me just say, if this is so, then we all escape the sin of murder as to make a law against such an act is to play mind games and/or lie about ending life when life has not really ended.

Is this how everyone else feels about this or is this just a B.W. idea and a J.Davis idea/belief? Please, anyone reading this if you would comment quickly on this.
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