flu shot

[RickD]

41,000 flu deaths comes from this paper BTW http://mathbio.sas.upenn.edu/Papers/DushPlot06-AJE.pdf
and there is this one
“Prepandemic” Immunization for Novel Influenza Viruses, “Swine Flu” Vaccine, Guillain‐Barré Syndrome, and the Detection of Rare Severe Adverse Events. David Evans, Simon Cauchemez, Frederick G Hayden. The Journal of Infectious Diseases 2009;200:321–328

They admit in their own paper that they might not have died from influenza. Did you even read the article, or did you just want to see the number to try to validate your point?

[RickD]

Bart, I found this site the same way anyone else can find it. By searching. It seems pretty legit, and independent to me. No water machine sales, and it even has references at the bottom if you want to check them out yourself.http://www.dermaharmony.com/skinnutrition/ph.aspx

[Jehoram]

41,000 flu deaths comes from this paper BTW http://mathbio.sas.upenn.edu/Papers/DushPlot06-AJE.pdf
and there is this one
“Prepandemic” Immunization for Novel Influenza Viruses, “Swine Flu” Vaccine, Guillain‐Barré Syndrome, and the Detection of Rare Severe Adverse Events. David Evans, Simon Cauchemez, Frederick G Hayden. The Journal of Infectious Diseases 2009;200:321–328

They admit in their own paper that they might not have died from influenza. Did you even read the article, or did you just want to see the number to try to validate your point?

or this
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us ... deaths.htm

You accuse me of pulling figures out of the air but I'm not . You claim that the flu vaccine is dangerous ,but there wasn't a rise in GBS in 1976 , GBS can also commonly caused by exposure to the flu virus itself so claiming that the vaccine causes more deaths from GBS than a major flu pandemic isn't likely .
The figures do not even suggest a significant risk caused by the vaccine(never mind a causal link) yet you claim that some how there is a conspiracy to inflict this vaccine on the population despite it's terrible risks . You are also assuming that modern annual flu vaccines cause the same problem as the 1976 vaccine despite there not being any evidence for this .
When a double blind trial of "alkaline" water is peer reviewed in a reputable scientific journal then I will be more than happy to accept the facts .

[RickD]

You accuse me of pulling figures out of the air but I'm not

Where did I accuse you of that? I asked you where you got the numbers?

You claim that the flu vaccine is dangerous ,but there wasn't a rise in GBS in 1976 , GBS can also commonly caused by exposure to the flu virus itself so claiming that the vaccine causes more deaths from GBS than a major flu pandemic isn't likely .

You can do a search to see the ingredients in the H1N1 vaccine. Then see how those toxins affect the body. I would hope you would check it out for yourself like I did, and not take my word for it.

The figures do not even suggest a significant risk caused by the vaccine(never mind a causal link) yet you claim that some how there is a conspiracy to inflict this vaccine on the population despite it's terrible risks .

There are many sites that do suggest a risk greater than the benefits of taking the vaccine. You can search for yourself and decide on your own if you agree with them.

You are also assuming that modern annual flu vaccines cause the same problem as the 1976 vaccine despite there not being any evidence for this .

The swine flu vaccine has not been tested enough to say with certainty that is safe for use on humans. If you want to be a guinea pig, or have your family be a test rat for this vaccine, then go ahead. No one is forcing you to refrain from getting the shot.

When a double blind trial of "alkaline" water is peer reviewed in a reputable scientific journal then I will be more than happy to accept the facts .

I'm not asking you to accept anything I say about alkaline water or foods. You can find out for yourself like I did, or you can continue being a skeptic like I was until I found out for myself. I don't understand what the problem is with searching things and studying for ourselves here. I came to this website because I had reservations about YEC beliefs. I studied on my own with God's leading, and thankfully have found OEC which simply makes more sense. My Dad had cholangiocarcinoma(bile duct cancer). When the Doctors of a leading cancer hospital in Massaachusetts couldn't answer how my Dad got this cancer, that was enough for me to start on my own. They wanted my family to put our trust in them to help him when they couldn't even tell me the cause of it? It's simple elementary science. Cause and effect. Every effect has a cause. If they couldn't tell me the cause, then how could I be sure that they could treat the effect? My family and I relied on God to strengthen us during that time, and God led me to information about how alkalinity and acids affect our bodies. I'm not going to expect anyone to accept my story. There is so much information and misinformation out there that it's very difficult to find any answers without praying and seeking God's help. You all can continue arguing with me about this, or you can find out for yourselves if what I say has any merit. While you're waiting for your independent double blind studies, you can continue being sick and keep complaining about it. Or you can do something about it yourselves.

[Canuckster1127]

While you're waiting for your independent double blind studies, you can continue being sick and keep complaining about it. Or you can do something about it yourselves.

Rick, do you know what a circular argument is?

[RickD]

While you're waiting for your independent double blind studies, you can continue being sick and keep complaining about it. Or you can do something about it yourselves.

Rick, do you know what a circular argument is?

It seems to be what we're having here. We are going around in circles.

[Canuckster1127]

It's returning to your original proposition and citing it itself as proof.

You state this is your opinion, and it appears you realize you can't prove it beyond stating your experience and opinion, and yet, you make a statement of fact that those who don't follow your practice are going to "continue being sick" and that the solution is to "do something yourselves".

You don't see anything breaking down within that line of thinking?

[RickD]

It's returning to your original proposition and citing it itself as proof.

You state this is your opinion, and it appears you realize you can't prove it beyond stating your experience and opinion, and yet, you make a statement of fact that those who don't follow your practice are going to "continue being sick" and that the solution is to "do something yourselves".

You don't see anything breaking down within that line of thinking?

Bart, Do you realize that what people are asking when they ask for an independent source and double blind studies to prove that raw, whole foods and healthy water can give the human body the vitamins and minerals it needs to keep healthy? Do you realize how absurd that is? Do you know that gout is caused by a buildup of uric ACID? Oops, there's that word again. Do you know that gout has been successfully treated by changing one's diet? People knew that in the 1950's when my Grandfather had gout. It's not something new. Do you know that gout and arthritis are similar? Why is it so hard to believe that arthritis could be treated by diet as well? Zoe wrote:

For these conditions, treating the symptoms ARE the treatment. I take this because, other than surgery, there ARE no other treatments available. Despite what many of the quacks out there say, diet does NOT affect or cause these problems. There are clear etiological pathways and these medications that are available prevent the symptoms. For some crazy reason, some people will show complete remission, others are affected severely

This gets back to cause and effect. Where is Zoe hearing that there is no cure? If I went to a Doctor who said that whatever symptoms I had didn't have a cure, then that wouldn't be good enough for me. If I went through years of pain while nothing I did stopped what was causing the symptoms, I would try to find some answers on my own. "there is no cure" isn't good enough for me. If you or Zoe want to be content with trying different meds. over and over without actually fixing the problem, then that's fine. It's your choice. My experience is my proof to myself. You can believe me, say that it's all in my head, call me a circular reasoner, call me a conspirator, or whatever you want. After I had my water machine, my bro. in law drank water every day for about a month, and then made the decision to buy his own machine. He actually tested it himself before making the decision. I'm sure that won't make a difference to you, but he actually tried it before writing it off. He was at least as skeptical about it as I was. It all comes down to whether you, Zoe, or anyone else is content with your health the way it is. If you are, fine. Then we have nothing further to discuss on this.

[Canuckster1127]

I'm not calling you anything Rick. I'm simpy noting the circular reasoning and inconsistency where I see it. I'm also noting the logical fallacy of a false dilemma in thes last response.

The issue of whether someone is content with their health the way it is, doesn't leave the one to one relationship that if they are discontent that indicates that they should take your challenge and try your recommended product. The basis upon which they should give credence to your recommended product is on the merit of the product itself, not their discontent with their health.

Placebo effects. personal testimonies piled on consumers are all tried and true marketing and psychological method used from time immemorial to play to people's hopes and fears for products that may or may not have any merit in and of themselves. You take it on a case by case basis and in this case, with all due respect Rick to you and full assurance on my part that I believe you are sincere, I simply believe that you're sincerely wrong on this and I decline the invitation to look any further at it unless or until there is credible support for the claims.

blessings,

bart

[zoegirl]

It's returning to your original proposition and citing it itself as proof.

You state this is your opinion, and it appears you realize you can't prove it beyond stating your experience and opinion, and yet, you make a statement of fact that those who don't follow your practice are going to "continue being sick" and that the solution is to "do something yourselves".

You don't see anything breaking down within that line of thinking?

Bart, Do you realize that what people are asking when they ask for an independent source and double blind studies to prove that raw, whole foods and healthy water can give the human body the vitamins and minerals it needs to keep healthy? Do you realize how absurd that is?

Nobody is denying this and I would ask that you back this claim...I certainly have never said that. There are PLENTY of studies about healthy diets. What there is NOT out there are diets that show that eating foods and drinking water with certain pH will cause what those "nutritionists" claim.

Do you know that gout is caused by a buildup of uric ACID? Oops, there's that word again. Do you know that gout has been successfully treated by changing one's diet? People knew that in the 1950's when my Grandfather had gout. It's not something new. Do you know that gout and arthritis are similar?

This is a rather silly argument because we are discussing a very specific metabolic disease dealing with the removal of a very specific acid, uric acid. This comes from a metabolic disorder from a very CERTAIN group of people who either produce too much uric acid or are missing some enzymes or have fewer enzymes that break down uric acid. WHile it is controlled by diet, it is not simply caused by drinking or eating acidic foods (or many more people would be getting this). You must have certain genetic or metabolic problems.

Why is it so hard to believe that arthritis could be treated by diet as well? Zoe wrote:

For these conditions, treating the symptoms ARE the treatment. I take this because, other than surgery, there ARE no other treatments available. Despite what many of the quacks out there say, diet does NOT affect or cause these problems. There are clear etiological pathways and these medications that are available prevent the symptoms. For some crazy reason, some people will show complete remission, others are affected severely

This gets back to cause and effect. Where is Zoe hearing that there is no cure?



If I went to a Doctor who said that whatever symptoms I had didn't have a cure, then that wouldn't be good enough for me. If I went through years of pain while nothing I did stopped what was causing the symptoms, I would try to find some answers on my own. "there is no cure" isn't good enough for me. If you or Zoe want to be content with trying different meds. over and over without actually fixing the problem, then that's fine.

My medicine is fixing the problem. It blocks the inflammation process. While I pray that there is a cure, surgery at this moment (of course excluding miraculous healing) is the only cure. I didn't simply "do nothing". I researched, I read, I even read the anecdotal evidence of different diets. I tried multiple types of medicine, I tried diets, I tried probiotics (made it worse), I even stopping eating and went down to simply water and the blandest of bland foods....believe I didn't simply do nothing.

It's your choice. My experience is my proof to myself. You can believe me, say that it's all in my head, call me a circular reasoner, call me a conspirator, or whatever you want. After I had my water machine, my bro. in law drank water every day for about a month, and then made the decision to buy his own machine. He actually tested it himself before making the decision. I'm sure that won't make a difference to you, but he actually tried it before writing it off. He was at least as skeptical about it as I was. It all comes down to whether you, Zoe, or anyone else is content with your health the way it is. If you are, fine. Then we have nothing further to discuss on this.

May I ask if he had a certain illness that was cured? Or did he simply "feel better"? Like I said, if it is as simple as this, believe me, there would be people in the medical profession falling over themselves (as greedy as they are) wanting to make money off of this. It would be ridiculously easy to test and prove, after all.

What would interest me would be examining those that do by this machine with a group of those that simply drink water...no soda, no milk, nothing else to drink except for water. Because I would be willing to bet money that what really helps is not that it is "special" water but that it is simply water. Want my guess? Those that buy those machines now have a vested interest in drinking more water. And so they drink more water. There is nothing remotely special about it, other than the fact that they are probably watching how much they are consuming. There is nothing novel about the special qualities of water itself. It is well established that drinking more water helps in overall health and weight loss.

Want to test that? Simply control the diets of both groups, control the background variables such as overall health, and of course make it a blind study where the consumers did not know what kind of water they were drinking.

Simple, easy, and remarkably cheap experiment to do. This is not a matter of "money" or interest.

I remember reading an article about the Southbeach diet in Consumer reports that analyzed the "special" features of the diet. Their comment? It wasn't the unique features of the diet but rather the fact that the diet itself meant that people were consuming only 1300 calories a day. Any diet that makes you go down to 1300 calories and day will result in weight loss. THis is simply another example of multiple variables affecting the outcome combined with the placebo effect combined with outright scamming.

Yes, we will probably agree to disagree. I have been busy but could not let the comment rest that I had simply "given up".

[RickD]

Placebo effects. personal testimonies piled on consumers are all tried and true marketing and psychological method used from time immemorial to play to people's hopes and fears for products that may or may not have any merit in and of themselves.

that would be correct except for the fact that I'm not selling anything. I'm not profiting off this information at all.

with all due respect Rick to you and full assurance on my part that I believe you are sincere, I simply believe that you're sincerely wrong on this

Bart, how can you believe I'm sincere AND believe I'm wrong? Either the water has 1) relieved my joint pain like I said 2) Hydrated me so that I can do things outside in the +100 degree Florida heat 3) taken away the acid reflux that used to awaken me at night. OR I'm lying to you with no motive at all to lie about this. I can't be sincere and wrong. Either this water has helped me, or I'm a liar.

[Canuckster1127]

Rick,

I've already answered what a placebo effect is. I believe you believe what you're saying. It might even be true, but I just don't see the objective evidence there in addition to your reported experience. There's no need to make it a personal issue beyong that unless you decide to make it so. When there's objective evidence in this area, I'll be happy to reexamine my opinion on the matter. Disagreeing with you is not the same as calling you a liar. I don't believe that you are a liar and it would sadden me to diminish any friendship we have for your believing that to be so. I'm not however, going to lie to you myself to placate you when I honestly don't agree. I hope you wouldn't want that either.

blessings,

bart

[RickD]

Zoe,

RickD wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:It's returning to your original proposition and citing it itself as proof.

You state this is your opinion, and it appears you realize you can't prove it beyond stating your experience and opinion, and yet, you make a statement of fact that those who don't follow your practice are going to "continue being sick" and that the solution is to "do something yourselves".

You don't see anything breaking down within that line of thinking?


Bart, Do you realize that what people are asking when they ask for an independent source and double blind studies to prove that raw, whole foods and healthy water can give the human body the vitamins and minerals it needs to keep healthy? Do you realize how absurd that is?



Nobody is denying this and I would ask that you back this claim...I certainly have never said that. There are PLENTY of studies about healthy diets. What there is NOT out there are diets that show that eating foods and drinking water with certain pH will cause what those "nutritionists" claim

I didn't say you said that, but Bart and Jehoram did. All the alkaline info. does is explain WHY good foods are good, and bad foods are bad. Because of the balance of alkaline and acidic foods etc. we need. There is plenty of info out there to make a decision if it is correct or not. I searched and studied for months before I made my decision. It wasn't on a whim.

This is a rather silly argument because we are discussing a very specific metabolic disease dealing with the removal of a very specific acid, uric acid. This comes from a metabolic disorder from a very CERTAIN group of people who either produce too much uric acid or are missing some enzymes or have fewer enzymes that break down uric acid. WHile it is controlled by diet, it is not simply caused by drinking or eating acidic foods (or many more people would be getting this). You must have certain genetic or metabolic problems.

Zoe you are missing my point. People produce the uric acid because of their diet and metabolic acids they ingest. I'm not denying the genetic differences people have. If I have an overly acidic diet, My symptoms may be diabetes, or heart disease. You, on the other hand, may have arthritic symptoms. Our bodies deal with the metabolic acids in different ways. There may be a genetic link to breast cancer for example. If my wife's mom and maternal grandmother both got breast cancer, then that might mean that's the way their bodies deal with those metabolic acids.

My medicine is fixing the problem. It blocks the inflammation process. While I pray that there is a cure, surgery at this moment (of course excluding miraculous healing) is the only cure. I didn't simply "do nothing". I researched, I read, I even read the anecdotal evidence of different diets. I tried multiple types of medicine, I tried diets, I tried probiotics (made it worse), I even stopping eating and went down to simply water and the blandest of bland foods....believe I didn't simply do nothing.

Your medicine is relieving the symptoms of the problem. It isn't doing anything to stop the problem. Simply drinking water(which was probably acidic and with a high +orp) and eating bland foods isn't what I'm saying. With your serious symptoms, you need to eat as close to 100% alkaline diet until the symptoms disappear. Then you can slowly add some other healthy but acidic foods. Most bottled waters I've tested are very acidic. Dasani had about a 4 ph. That's 1000 times more acidic than my tap water with a 7 ph. Colas and gatorade have a ph around 2.5-3. That's about 10,000 times more acidic that 7.0 tap water. How can our bodies counteract that acidity if we're not eating alkaline foods or drinking alkaline water?

May I ask if he had a certain illness that was cured? Or did he simply "feel better"? Like I said, if it is as simple as this, believe me, there would be people in the medical profession falling over themselves (as greedy as they are) wanting to make money off of this. It would be ridiculously easy to test and prove, after all.

His results were similar to mine. Keep in mind that alkaline water is only 1 part of a proper alkaline diet. To get the full benefits, one must get as close to 100% alkaline with his/her foods and drinks. Healthy people would probably maintain their health with about 80% alkaline and 20% acidic foods and drinks.

. Because I would be willing to bet money that what really helps is not that it is "special" water but that it is simply water.

And, you would be wrong. I posted this back on page 3:

I figured out how much $ we spent on bottled water. The price of that would exceed the price of water from my machine.

My wife and I drank bottles upon bottles of water. We live in Florida, and realize that we need to be hydrated. What we didn't realize is that most of the bottled water was highly acidic, and just contributed to the metabolic acids in our system. One thing my brother in law noticed anout the alkaline water was that he didn't get heartburn when he drank it like he did when he drank bottled water. That's because of the acidity of the bottled water.

There is nothing remotely special about it, other than the fact that they are probably watching how much they are consuming. There is nothing novel about the special qualities of water itself. It is well established that drinking more water helps in overall health and weight loss.

I would probably agree with you if I hadn't consumed so much bottled water before. Healthy, ionized, alkaline water is thousands of times better than acidic bottled water, or even 7 ph tap water with all the chemicals that are in the municipal water and well water. Zoe, it all comes down to this: Either I'm correct, and if you start on a close to 100% alkaline diet(food and drink) and your symptoms will gradually disappear. Or, I'm sincerely mislead and completely wrong. Only you can decide for yourself.

[RickD]

Rick,

I've already answered what a placebo effect is. I believe you believe what you're saying. It might even be true, but I just don't see the objective evidence there in addition to your reported experience. There's no need to make it a personal issue beyong that unless you decide to make it so. When there's objective evidence in this area, I'll be happy to reexamine my opinion on the matter. Disagreeing with you is not the same as calling you a liar. I don't believe that you are a liar and it would sadden me to diminish any friendship we have for your believing that to be so. I'm not however, going to lie to you myself to placate you when I honestly don't agree. I hope you wouldn't want that either.

blessings,

bart

Bart, at least now your saying it"might even be true". I'm not lying, and There is no placebo effect. You can choose to believe what I say is the truth, or not. Oh, I forgot to add that I haven't gotten the "flu", or a sinus infection since I've been drinking this water. I have always had flulike symptoms at least once a year my entire adult life. So, take that for what it's worth. Bart, I told you how the water has helped me. Either you believe me or you don't. If you disagree that I haven't had any positive physical changes to my health, then isn't that the same as saying I'm lying?

[zoegirl]

Zoe you are missing my point. People produce the uric acid because of their diet and metabolic acids they ingest. I'm not denying the genetic differences people have. If I have an overly acidic diet, My symptoms may be diabetes, or heart disease. You, on the other hand, may have arthritic symptoms. Our bodies deal with the metabolic acids in different ways. There may be a genetic link to breast cancer for example. If my wife's mom and maternal grandmother both got breast cancer, then that might mean that's the way their bodies deal with those metabolic acids.

We ALL produce uric acid, but not from excessive acidic foods. In fact, it's not the levels of acid in the foods that lead to the production of uric acid but the amount of purines that the patients must control.

LOok, I'm not denying that diet can influence disease. I AM denying that this particular diet and those particular claims have any merit! Especially with the sources that you have provided ...

It's a simple hypothesis that could be shown very easily byt any number of the proponents of the diet. I noticed you didn't even address the critique I gave about the amount of water in general.

However, all that being said, I agree to disagree...