Where the founding fathers atheist

[ryeguy123]

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did." --- Benjamin Franklin, letter to his father
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
also jefferson and ben where deist but i heard 27 of the 55 delegates of the constitution had a seminary degree
what do you think the answer is

[Canuckster1127]

I don't know that I understand the question. In terms of the founding fathers, none of them are known to have been atheist. Jefferson at the time of the founding may have been diests but if so they still were tied to the Episcopal tradition (Jefferson especially). The rest were pretty tightly tied to their churches in terms of membership and public professions. That simply was the way things were at that time. Publically professing atheists were rare.

[happycynic]

Yep, many were deists (jefferson, franklin for sure) and rather disgruntled with christianity. Maybe some were atheists, but they didn't call themselves such. and I'm sure some were quite religious. Either way, the religious ones were diverse enough that they didn't want any single religion getting its say, and the non-religious ones didn't want any religion in to begin with, so they made the government secular and everyone went happily on their way.

[jlay]

I'm disgruntled with Christianity and I am a believer. So, I'm not sure what you mean there.

Either way, the religious ones were diverse enough that they didn't want any single religion getting its say, and the non-religious ones didn't want any religion in to begin with, so they made the government secular and everyone went happily on their way.

Just not true. Speculation. The reason the government was made secular was because these were wise men. They knew first, that they were men. They knew all to well how government corrupted true religion. They also were very wise to know just what Christianity was, and therefore knew that establishing a 'Christian' government was impossible. They established a country which honored freedom of religion. Not seperation of church and state, as at this time, prayers were conducted, and church services were held in government assemblies. National days of prayer were issued by the government.

Even the least religious like Franklin and Jefferson would be considered right wing religious nuts by your ilk today. Asside from Thomas Paine, there really wasn't anyone that we know was non-Christian in the sense you mean it. Many of the FF wrote extensively on matters of faith. many of them are well quoted in regards to the Christian faith.

Jefferson wrote that the rights that you enjoy were endowed by our Creator. In other words. That they are not arbitrary. But that they are as natural as gravity.

[Canuckster1127]

There were many who were "disgruntled" with the Church of England. Virginia in particular, and Jefferson ties to this, prior to the revolution had mandatory church taxes. Jefferson was educated in part in some Church of England and he observed the "evil" (and I tend to agree with him) of state religion where a clergy class were often corrupt and lazy. Many of Jefferson's more virulent quotes that are used to try and show him to be "anti-christian" are in fact, not blanket statements but specifically toward "priests" and the mandatory elements of state religion. That's a common theme in many other Founding Fathers as well. Jefferson was quite active in Virginia politics as well, having served as its governor and took his vision of education to found what became the University of Virginia in which he promoted his vision of separation of Church and State. He was also very much involved in promoting freedom of religion in Virginia. So much so that on his tombstone when listing his accomplishment he included those while failing to mention his presidency of the US.

Of course I'm not saying that Jefferson was an orthodox Christian. Far from it. He denied the miraculous, denied the deity of Christ. In terms of morals however he saw Christ as the highest form of values and morality that he knew of. He was certainly not anti-Christian to the degree that many paint him and there are strong indication, particularly in his correspondance wtih Adams later in life that he was moving more toward a Unitarian position, as it was defined in that day and age, not necessarily today.

[happycynic]

Well, jefferson was a deist. He still gets to use creation-story theology, so it's fine for him to say that our rights are endowed by a creator; doesn't necessarily follow that he went with any other parts of the christian doctrine.

I'm not sure that Franklin or Jefferson would be considering religious nuts (or "fundies", which is actually the technical term my "ilk" uses ), but I do know that jefferson went through and edited the bible cuz he felt parts of it were crappy, and that Franklin had a few uncharitable things to say about religion at one point or another. They were products of the enlightenment, the first time in history that deism, agnosticism, atheism, etc. all really picked up steam.

My speculation on the origins of church-state seperation are just that, suppositions. But they seem quite plausible to me.

As for disgruntled=non-christian, i never said that, although I can see where you got that implication from my statement. I said they were deists and disgruntled, not that they were deists and therefore disgruntled.

But anyhow, the OP asked if the founding fathers were Atheist or not. My answer: Nope, some were deist, maybe closet atheists, but most were religious of some sort or another.

[Canuckster1127]

Jefferson did create what is known as the "Jefferson Bible" what he effectively did is take a Bible and remove all the elements that he thought were not representative of Christ's actual words and were later added by the church. So that removed all miracles, claims to deity etc. It's consistent with what I said about Jefferson's views on those issues. Franklin was probably the most clearly deist FF. Like many however there's elements to him that make me question that at times. If you look at most of Franklin's material that's cited in these areas, a great deal of it is aimed at clergy and state religion. That's often confused as being anti-christian overall, and that's just not the case either in Franklin or Jefferson's cases and those two are the most extreme examples (which is why they're focused on by some who want to paint all FF in the same light.)

I don't see you trying to do that so I think we're pretty close to the same page. I'm not just citing other's opinions on much of this by the way. I've read a great deal of both Jefferson's and Franklin's own writings.

[happycynic]

I'm mostly citing the consensus that I've found online and in other sources, I haven't done much research on it myself. Honestly, I'm really not particularly concerned with what the founding fathers intended or believed. They were pretty insightful, yeah, but i think people put way too much weight on what they said. It's almost like the FF are publicly regarded as saints or something. They were people, and so they were fallible.

[jlay]

Franklin also has many quotes endorsing religion. So, it is utterly fruitless to claim him for one side or the other.

Well, jefferson was a deist. He still gets to use creation-story theology, so it's fine for him to say that our rights are endowed by a creator; doesn't necessarily follow that he went with any other parts of the christian doctrine.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that to be endowed, means you are personally provided for. This evokes a God much different than the deist view of God.

[Byblos]

It's almost like the FF are publicly regarded as saints or something.

Only if they were Catholic.

[jlay]

Yep, they were quite fallible. Imagine fighting a war over taxation today. Yet it happened, and we revere the FFs as heroes. One thing I don't question is that these men were intelligent. Franklin was a genious. But he was also a warped pervert.
I also don't question that they had a sincere desire to create the best representative republic the world has ever know.