That’s not true...there is a lot (a ton) to consider, we have talked on a good bit of it so far.smiley wrote:Don't be an ankle biter. The phrase "forever and ever" as a reference to the duration of an event is used in both instances. Thus, the annihilationist has good grounds to take the one from Revelation figuratively.J.Davis wrote: No, not at all..
Does revelations say that some physical object on earth was burning? Nope!
1. More than half of these verses are irrelevant. Because annihilationists affirm that the punishment is eternal.Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mark 9:47 “If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire
Daniel 12:2 again: "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt (abhorrence, hatred, detestation, great aversion).”
ETC...There is no way that God did not mean never ending burning...And I didn’t even have to rewrite the bible.
Also, the scriptures do have relevance, they are the truth, also, they can show contradictions against the truth.
Concerning Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
They have no rest day and night suggest that they are still alive. Concerning the phrase (the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever) as it is used in other books (not revelations). Those where instances where God showed the type of people that would be punished in hell. In those cases the scripture just says: it’s smoke goes up forever or there was thick smoke etc. However, revelations speaks of the future, that is why it says that they have no rest day and night, they are actually going in the lake of fire. With the examples of the type of people that will go to hell, they are not being thrown into the lake of fire yet, they are just examples. So no, either Revelations is independent from the verses that refer to smoking forever (highly unlikely) or all the verses that refer to smoking forever will agree with Revelations, meaning that on and after the day of judgment everyone in the lake of fire will have no rest day and night . But as I said, revelations is not an example, it’s a description of the real thing as well as it being placed in the future. Again...no mater what, all scriptures that refer to smoking forever (in relation to types of people that will go to hell) are either an example of the day revelations speaks of and no one will have rest day and night (extremely likely) or they are independent (unlikely). Either way, Revelations says that they have no rest day and night so it can not be used figuratively in the way annihilationist wish to use it.
This scripture: Hebrews 6:1,2,3 will mean the same thing for both traditionalist and annihilationist until the truth is established for those who do not know it because both believe that their view is correct. The foundation for eternal judgment concerning those who do not know the truth is not laid down so there are questions which those who know are trying to help answer. Therefore, the scripture has little relevance in this discussion until the truth is established for those who do not know it. That scripture speaks to those who know the truth concerning the elementary teaching about the Christ.smiley wrote:2. Having read through the last few pages, I haven't seen any good responses to Hebrews 6:1-3, which can be used as a basis for interpreting the verses that speak of eternal condemnation as being eternal in consequence, not duration. It is also not the only verse, as the New Testament also speaks of "eternal redemption", and no one understands that to mean that the righteous will experience the process of being redeemed forever.
The only one to address it is B.W on page 13, and he does so by interpreting "eternal" as "final" judgment. And that's all fine, but the annihilationist can do the same with the other verses.
That is why B.W posted a few facts about God’s character. He means to give a foundation to determine the truth.