Sudsy wrote: No thank you. This has been discussed many times before. The bottom line is and will continue to be that I agree that God is what those scriptures say He is, no question in that. But and its a big BUT, what you believe these characteristics, attributes and nature, therefore means in how God must act accordingly is where we differ. I do not suggest in any way that God is something different than what these scriptures say, even though you have left out many other scriptures regarding who God is that also apply. If I add some, as I did a couple, you go right back into your interpretation of thes
All I ask was to make a list - this list is based on scripture and for you to use and add too for your own personal time as the Lord leads...
So let's look at your second statement:
Sudsy wrote:B. W. wrote:Do you have faith? What is it affixed too?
I sure do but it is not placed in an interpretation of man as to how God must act according to certain beliefs about what scripture is saying about His character and nature or an interpretation of hell being unending torment but rather in Christ alone. He alone is the Truth. I believe what scripture says about us seeing through a glass darkly and only knowing in part and so I don't trust any man's interpretation of texts that are clearly challenged to be suspect by other texts. However, the texts you provide, I say amen to them all and yet they do nothing to prove unending torment is an undeniable fact.
Some believers may choose to believe they have somehow arrived at a place of knowing all truth or perhaps must see all things as black or white, that is their choice. Perhaps they are convinced they have the truth revealed in an area regardless of what others also sense they have had revealed to them that is not the same. There are very elite sounding interpretations and strong convictions from the traditionalist, annihilationist and universalist camps. But all can't be right and I suspect to some degree they all only see in part.
'Eternity placed in our hearts', I believe and what I read as most scholars interpretation, is an awareness that this life, this little blip in time, is not all there is and everyone has this put in their awareness by God if they will only heed it. Scripture does not say anywhere that we are immortal beings that will live unending in either heaven or a lake a fire. God will destroy this earth, as we know it, and death and hell and satan and unrepentant sinners and all effects of sin, all pain and suffering and loss, etc, etc. He will create a new heaven and a new earth. He will give immortality only to those who have put their faith in Him. He will judge the wicked and give them the punishment that He determines they deserve. Having said this, I still may only have this correct 'in part' in my understandings but this is what my understandings are, at this point. I believe God understands where we can have things wrong as it was His choice to not make certain things unquestionably clear to all of us. I believe He has His reasons for doing that and we don't need to know them.
I, too, believe in John 16:13 but perhaps not quite in the way you might. The Holy Spirit is the one that leads us into truth but He leads us into the truths that God wishes to reveal. 'All truth' does not mean that any one man can know all the truth, except Jesus. No one man has a lock on truth and no guarantee that seeking any truth will result in finding it. Again, we can't take one scripture and ignore others that appear to contradict it. If we find every truth we seek for, then we would not be seeing through a glass darkly and knowing in part. And yet I believe God does reveal certain truths just as He answers certain prayers as we seek and ask Him. When that which is perfect is come is not the scriptures as we have them in our hands but rather Jesus when He comes. Again, this is my interpretation of certain scriptures and I cannot say that I am certain these are all revealed truths by the Holy Spirit and not my biblical worldview obtain through my teachings and experiences. The main truth that I know has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit is the truth that Jesus is God, came to earth and died for my sins, rose from the grave and is coming back to take me to be with Him. That is where my hope is found, in Christ alone.
What I still can't understand is how anyone can maintain a strong conviction on a view of unending torment and live so unconcerned about the destiny of perhaps 80-90 billion people. This is very conflicting with the concept of being born again and receiving a new heart full of compassion and unselfish living. To believe in anything with one's heart must go beyond the intellect to reach the emotions, the will and the conscience. Otherwise, it is only an intellectual reasoning thing. To live out a belief in never ending torment from one's heart would radically change anyone into a hell fire preaching evangelist who laboured non-stop to rescue everyone and anyone from such a state. I have not heard any refutable argument on this thought although people have treated it as an insult. I guess that is one way to quickly dismiss the thought.
That is my main reason for believing that regardless of what some say they believe, it is just words and far from what scripture calls a heart belief. And furthermore, since there is no record of such a response by the apostles, then, IMO, they did not believe in the concept of unending torment and most of them heard Jesus speak personally and they were also filled with and guided by the Holy Spirit in their ministries.
Well, I guess I failed again to stay away but I hope my posts have been more friendly. There certainly is a lot of repeating going on with these posts to make points and I am guilty as anyone. Thats why I think we often end up going in circles and it is so hard to quit.
You stated:
I sure do but it is not placed in an interpretation of man as to how God must act according to certain beliefs about what scripture is saying about His character and nature…
But you rely heavily on the writings and links to annihilationist line of reasoning so your faith seems to be more affixed to men ideas and not on who God is. If we are to take your line of thought to its obvious conclusions – then there is no right or wrong and no way at all to know truth.
You say, Christ is the truth because he is the truth,
in this I agree with you, but how can you get to know him who is truth since there can be no right or wrong way to determine His truth?
This is why I ask people to read the bible and write out a summary from each bible passage that describes God’s Character and Nature and Attributes. It helps one to get to know God and discover the truth that is in Christ Jesus. From it, the Holy Spirit Himself will teach person things in an omni-personal manner that pertain to the truths about God.
In this, a person will discover truth – the Truth in Christ and his words. A person will have more respect than to try to change them to suite a faith affixed upon human sentimentality.
And yes by the way - I added God's mercy, love, to the list and a few others you mentioned so please take the time to reveiw them and add too your own list...
-
-
P.S. You claim the apostles never expressed judgment – hell – wrath to come within their books. Yes, the apostles did mention hell and destruction in their own manner of language expressions in their respective books – they all pointed to ‘the wrath to come, eternal fires, judgment, etc and etc, in their own way.’
Next, I can say the same of your point of view as well so read your own words with your belief system imposed:
What I still can't understand is how anyone can maintain a strong conviction on a view of ending torment and live so unconcerned about the destiny of perhaps 80-90 billion people. This is very conflicting with the concept of being born again and receiving a new heart full of compassion and unselfish living. To believe in anything with one's heart must go beyond the intellect to reach the emotions, the will and the conscience. Otherwise, it is only an intellectual reasoning thing.
To live out a belief in ending torment from one's heart would radically change anyone into a hell fire preaching evangelist who laboured non-stop to rescue everyone and anyone from such a state. I have not heard any refutable argument on this thought although people have treated it as an insult. I guess that is one way to quickly dismiss the thought.
That is my main reason for believing that regardless of what some say they believe, it is just words and far from what scripture calls a heart belief. And furthermore, since there is no record of such a response by the apostles, then, IMO, they did not believe in the concept of ending torment and most of them heard Jesus speak personally and they were also filled with and guided by the Holy Spirit in their ministries…
Point:
The reason we do not respond is that you wrongly judge us and what we do.
In this, you are forgiven. There are no superstars in the Kingdom of God, just servants, and each servant’s service differs from the others.
No one can come to Christ unless the Lord draws him as Jesus own words of truth say. One sows, and other reaps, others help, some clean, others edify, some teach, some take care of. Read 1 Corinthians 12 sometime soon – does your argument hold up to that?
-
-
-