flu shot

[RickD]

Rick, Look at your original article. Reich is not a passing mention. He's at the heart of what is being said there and much more could be said in terms of the thinking and motives of that website with regard to marketing. If you're going to place something like that up in support of your position, apart from the fact that it's nothing like the peer reviewed support for claims made that both Zoe and I have said is something we'd need to see before taking much of this seriously. If you don't want to be associated with the people who form the core of articles you're putting up, then find others.

Bart, I see what you're saying. I wasn't promoting the website. I never heard of those websites before I found the articles. Just pointing out what was said in that specific article. no more, no less. Maybe I should be more specific when I post an article. Maybe I have to give a long explanation about how I agree with something specifically, and do not necessarily endorse every name cited in the article. I'll try to explain why I'm posting something in the future, so there won't be this kind of misunderstanding.

[RickD]

Here is an article that explains alkaline water and orp. It explains why ionized water is an antioxidant. I can't say I completely understand all the article, because some of it is scientific. As jlay stated in an earlier post, negative hydrogen ions have been known to be an antioxidant. This article explains how water ionizer gets OH- ions and H+ ions. The website sells water machines, so obviously they promote ionized water. The company is the one who makes the machine I have(Jupiter Melody). As far as their promoting of any other product besides water ionizers, or their promoting of any person's claims, I can't specifically say I agree or disagree unless I know of the specifics.http://www.ionizers.org/alkaline-water.html

[zoegirl]

Somehow that article, presented by the very people who are trying to get you to buy their machines, is not coming off as very impartial. You want to claim bias on the part of medical science, that they are not going to have the best interested of people's health at heart and yet you have no verification of any of these truths.

You have claimed in previous posts that simply by drikning this water I should be able to get off my medication (claiming, erroneously, that the pH is causing and therefore curative). The websites you have promoted have also claimed that this is better that having somehow get chemotherapy for their disease. Brilliant. Tell someone who is already vulnerable and scared to ignore their doctors advice and trust unverified claims.

I don't know how else to put this. None of the websites you have referenced to are unbiased, none are free from greed, they have the same tactics as other scam artists out there, and there are no valid studies out there. The so-called experts that are referenced have little to no valid medical background and venture on scary ground by suggesting that they stop taking their medicine and they will be cured by drinking water.

The websites, by their language and tone, are assuming a very low scientific knowledge and therefore they mix in *just* enough smart sounding claims (cancer doesn't live in...) to draw in the reader and make them trust the website claim.

None of them are convincing me and none of the references are sound. Sorry, other than "it makes me feel good", there is no evidence and no reason to spend good money on this.

[Canuckster1127]

The other sad part of these marketing approaches that rely on testimonies and other hearsay claims is that for every 1 testimony you have you can have 20 people who tried their non-conventional methods and who died trying them. Those voices from silence are not factored in. All we hear are the proponents of a method they want desperately to work. So they put their full faith and effort into the system or product. For every hopeful enthusiastic person you have on the front-end who will give a flowing testimonial of what they hope is happening you have the people on the other end, those alive anyway, who are not given a voice in context (doesn't sell the snakeoil, you see) and the dead tell no tales.

That's addressing the claims for cancer etc.

People want hope. People want to feel in control of their health and destinies. People want to believe that they are smarter than professionals who are giving them bad news they don't want to hear. It's not hard to see why that happens.

Preach a few funerals though and see the fallout that the slick brochures and websites don't mention, and you'll understand why I and others might seem cynical. Madison Avenue has taken the flim flam artists out of the Conestoga Wagins and they are now on the web, TV and Radio and human nature is the same as it's ever been.

[RickD]

Somehow that article, presented by the very people who are trying to get you to buy their machines, is not coming off as very impartial.

Where did i say they were impartial? In the post where I posted the article, I posted:

The website sells water machines, so obviously they promote ionized water.

You want to claim bias on the part of medical science, that they are not going to have the best interested of people's health at heart and yet you have no verification of any of these truths.

You make it sound like I think everyone in the medical field doesn't care about people's health. Way to go twisting my words. I'm being honest here. At least you could be honest about how you portray what I'm saying.

You have claimed in previous posts that simply by drikning this water I should be able to get off my medication (claiming, erroneously, that the pH is causing and therefore curative).

I CLAIMED that you should drink the water WHILE you continue taking your medication. And then you can see for yourself if you need to continue with the medication. I'm saying that the buildup of acids that the body can't get rid of is the cause. Alkaline ionized water with a high ph AND a low negative orp(antioxidant) is what would help you.

The websites you have promoted have also claimed that this is better that having somehow get chemotherapy for their disease. Brilliant. Tell someone who is already vulnerable and scared to ignore their doctors advice and trust unverified claims.

Do you even know what chemotherapy does to healthy cells? I was at the cancer doctor with my Dad the week before he died. The doctor was examining my Dad, and saw that he was going to die soon. My Mom asked the doctor if there was anything they could do. The doctor said we could TRY CHEMOTHERAPY!! My Mom asked rhetorically if the Doctor believed that would help him. The Doctor said it wouldn't help him. WHY WOULD A DOCTOR WANT TO PUT MY DAD THROUGH THAT PAIN OF CHEMO IN THE LAST WEEK OF HIS LIFE IF IT WOULDN'T DO ANY GOOD? So please spare me chemo line, Zoe.

I don't know how else to put this. None of the websites you have referenced to are unbiased, none are free from greed, they have the same tactics as other scam artists out there, and there are no valid studies out there.

The last website I posted is in the business of selling water machines. If you equate that with greed, then I don't know what to tell you. Their tactics are to show how these machines have been successfully used in Japan and Korea for decades. Sounds like a scam to me . Because you haven't seen any valid studies, doesn't mean they're not there. Then again, It seems at this point that if a valid study hit you in the face, you probably wouldn't believe it.

The websites, by their language and tone, are assuming a very low scientific knowledge and therefore they mix in *just* enough smart sounding claims (cancer doesn't live in...) to draw in the reader and make them trust the website claim.

Check out Dr. Otto Warburg who won a nobel prize when he showed that cancer cannot live in an alkaline environment. You want your scientific proof? Isn't a guy winning a nobel prize for the same thing alkaline proponents propose scientific enough for you?

None of them are convincing me and none of the references are sound. Sorry, other than "it makes me feel good", there is no evidence and no reason to spend good money on this.

I understand nothing is convincing you. I already told you many times that drinking the water has helped my joint pain, relieved my acid reflux, helped me not get sick, or allergies, shortened my exercise recovery time, kept me from being dehydrated, etc. It hasn't just "made me feel good". I have told you MY evidence! So, after explaining many times how it has helped me, I must assume you think I'm lying to push something on you that I have no reason to do unless I think it will help you. That's great, Zoe. I'm telling you something that has worked for me, am being ridiculed for it, and have no ulterior motive to say what I'm saying. I thought you were going to "agree to disagree", and leave it at that? After jlay posted, you needed to keep posting. If you don't agree, then stop posting, and let your side rest.

[RickD]

The other sad part of these marketing approaches that rely on testimonies and other hearsay claims is that for every 1 testimony you have you can have 20 people who tried their non-conventional methods and who died trying them.

Bart, you know this to be true for testimonies on healing with an alkaline diet? If you're just using this as a generalization on all marketing claims, then that is extremely unfair, and a generalization. I thought you would have been above that.

All we hear are the proponents of a method they want desperately to work

Or proponents of something that DID work.

So they put their full faith and effort into the system or product.

Bart, I understand your Dad put blind faith in a system that didn't work. We're not talking about blind faith here. I've seen testimonial after testimonial from people who have gone to the doctor after using the alkaline diet, and the doctor could find no signs of the cancer that was there before. It's not the same as saying that I have faith that "system x" will cure me, and then not actually seeing if the cancer is still there after trying it.

People want hope. People want to feel in control of their health and destinies. People want to believe that they are smarter than professionals who are giving them bad news they don't want to hear. It's not hard to see why that happens.

People are smart enough to realize that chemo and medicine don't cure disease. They are searching for something that actually cures what they have, and not just a relief for symptoms. Some people find the cure, others don't.

Preach a few funerals though and see the fallout that the slick brochures and websites don't mention, and you'll understand why I and others might seem cynical.

I understand why people are cynical. I was very skeptical too. I just don't under stand how someone can't see that God created our bodies in a specific way. And when we fail to eat the proper foods, our health deteriorates. It's not rocket science, that all the chemicals and medicines that weren't meant to be inside us are causing harm.

Madison Avenue has taken the flim flam artists out of the Conestoga Wagins and they are now on the web, TV and Radio and human nature is the same as it's ever been.

i agree that there are many scams out there. each one has to be tested on its own, and not lumped together with everything else.

[jlay]

Still trying to do research on this negative ORP water. Not finding much actual science to back up the claims. I even found a site that shows you a do it yourself kit with aluminum foil and a battery. So you can imagine this only increases my suspicions.

I am all for drinking healthy water, but I am supicious about some of the claims I am reading. In fact one site spends all its time putting down mineralized, ionized water just to sell its version of what it believes to be healthy water. Best I can tell they are selling a $500 blender, with the premise being that it 'oxygenates' the water as if it were flowing through a mtn. stream. They say the mineralized water leads to kidney stones and digestive problems. They say that the minerals in the water are akin to grinding up rocks and dirt and dissolving them in the water. Kind of funny to see this.

I have heard that most people are dehydrated. This most definately can weaken the body and who knows how it could contribute to health problems and disease. The kidneys and the skin are the filters and we do not stay hydrated I can see this leading to disease. But, is there any special treatment to water that will actually cure? I am highly suspicious. I'd love to try the neg OPR water, but I am not doing a $1,500 experiment. I filter my water as it is, and they are no where near this expensive.

I have no doubt that much of the disease we see is due to long term dietary issues. Our foods are full of pestisides. Our water is full of added chemicals. Most foods begin to lose their nutrient quality as soon as they are picked, so much of what we consume does not deliver. In addition we have a diet full of processed food full of high fructose corn syrup, and all kinds of additives and preservatives.

I can personally testify to the health benefits of diet and exercise as I made a radical change several years ago. In addition to losing 25 pds. I also

I use to suffer from acid reflux and was on prescription for this. We are just now starting to know the long term implications of Nexium, Prilosec, etc. I also suffered from bad seasonal allergies and was on scrip for this as well. Since cutting out processed sugars and carbs and other dietary changes, these symptoms simply dissapeared. Guess how many doctors suggested diet and exercise? ZERO. Not to mention chronic head aches and other pains that dissapeared.

My mother is on blood pressure, diabetes, and arthritis meds. She is 80 pds or more overwieght. Docs continue to feed her scrips, and want to do hip replacement. All without suggesting, much less demanding, that she lose weight. She could reduce if not get off these meds simply by diet and exercise, as all of these are onset through her weight problem.

Almost all drugs treats symptoms. Symptoms of the body malfunctioning. Yes, there are conditions and diseases that are not due to diet. But if you look at prescription drugs, you will see that there are billions of dollars made on drugs that deal with health problems that are created by poor health choices.

Putting bad things into the body can cause disease and cancer. If not, then start smoking and injesting asbestos. Keeping the wrong things out ,and putting the right things in can and will help the body. Is Neg ORP water the right thing? I don't know.

[Canuckster1127]

People are smart enough to realize that chemo and medicine don't cure disease.

It doesn't?

Here's the most recent stats from Canada on Cancer survival rates compared over the past 15 years.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/09/15 ... -statscan/

Look at them carefully. If you want to compare them going back 50 or a 100 years I can assure you that they are even more dramatic. Further they are validated statistics.

I'm really amazed to see that statement from you, as well as your professed belief that people who don't agree with you must just be ignorant of what cancer is and how it is caused and forms.

My dad died of cancer and I'm not all that happy with the organization that he turned to to place his hope and practice, but I don't blame them for his death. I'm very willing to give some credit to my Dad, that faced with stage 4 kidney cancer he was at a place where medicine definitely had some limitations. He was not inclined to trust medicine or doctors (which sadly explains how he reached that stage in the first place as he wouldn't go in to see a doctor even for a minimal check-up.) Faced with a prognosis of 6 mos - 2 years to live, he chose to use evey other means he could to fight the disease, and he lived 6 years. I'm grateful that he chose to diet and lose 70 pounds. I'm grateful that he went on a Vegan diet and juiced believing it would help him; and I think it did help him. I'm grateful that he exercised. I'm grateful that he prayed and enlisted many to pray for him.

I'm not particularly happy with the organization he attached to, who took his testimony of his "healing" and published and used it to promote their organization and lead others to believe that this was a cure for cancer. My dad died 4 months after they published his testimony of healing. He died of the original cancer which had spread to 6 other organs in his body. It was mercifully quick and right up to the last 2 months of his life he lived a good quality of life. Again sadly, his choice to continue, even in the final stages with resisting any medical help, made that death unnecessarily painful, but I respect that that was his right to decide.

When you make a statement like that above Rick, you're doing more than advocating a method that you've found to be helpful to you. I have no problem with you advocating the water you do. I don't believe you're lying. I believe you believe what you're saying even while I recognize that there is not necessarily a cause/effect relationship. There may be. I don't know, and frankly, beyond your strong belief Rick, in the absence of formal studies you don't know either.

Correlation does not establish cause. That's true on a large scale when you have data from thousands of people. It's even more true when you're dealing with just one person and what they're claiming in terms of their own beliefs as to what has made an impact on their health. Our bodies are systems, and there's far more than just one factor that affects our overall health, many of which we're not aware.

They are searching for something that actually cures what they have, and not just a relief for symptoms. Some people find the cure, others don't.

With your first statement you've eliminated medicine as a "cure" for anything so I guess that leaves the alternatives you're advocating here. There are no guarantees in life, beyond the assurance we have in Christ of eternity with Him. Medicine is not perfect. There's nothing wrong with seeking as well through diet, exercise and other methods to promote health.

I sure wouldn't want to be in a position to tell someone with certainty on my part that something absolutely will not work. That would include telling someone that chemo and medicine won't cure disease. I really hope you reconsider that Rick and that that was just an overstatement in the passion of discussing this issue. I'm a 24 year cancer survivor myself and I can tell you with a pretty high degree of certainty if I had not undergone surgery and radiation treatment I would not be alive right now. The survival rate for the cancer I had is very high with this treatment, about 96% of those who undergo it survive after 5 years which is pretty much the standard used to measure these things.

Where would I be, Rick, if I took the point of view that medicine had nothing to offer me and that, in your words, "They are searching for something that actually cures what they have, and not just a relief for symptoms. Some people find the cure, others don't."

You claim you're not advocating people go off of medications and trust these methods but then you make a statement like that and you reference claims to articles based heavily on the discredited work of 2 men. Then you claim, you didn't really mean to endorse all of the articles, you just mean the parts of the articles that deal with alkaline water and nothing else.

You may think I'm being hard on you Rick. People however, read these boards, and what is placed on a public board can influence them and their decisions. Do you really want people to take what you've said here and go out and buy a water machine and not see a doctor or follow through on even medical procedures and treatments that have a better than 90% success rate, versus doing nothing which, at least in my case, would likely have lead to my death before the age of 30 if it was left untreated?

I'm addrressing this to your statement, and not you personally. Please, rethink and reconsider the scope and extent of the statements you're making. Cancer survival rates are increasing. In some cases dramatically, and they are doing so for a combination of factors which includes, earlier detection (check-ups) and increasingly effective treatments which in many cases alleviate symptoms (I'll grant you that) but also DO RESULT IN CURES, with documented follow-ups over a sustained period of time.

bart

[RickD]

Still trying to do research on this negative ORP water. Not finding much actual science to back up the claims. I even found a site that shows you a do it yourself kit with aluminum foil and a battery. So you can imagine this only increases my suspicions.

jlay, keep searching, because I believe this is the most beneficial part of the water that I drink. Aluminum foil and a battery? Knowing what I know about how actual alkaline ionized water machines work, this sounds suspicious to me as well.

I am all for drinking healthy water, but I am supicious about some of the claims I am reading. In fact one site spends all its time putting down mineralized, ionized water just to sell its version of what it believes to be healthy water.

There are many claims that I have read that I don't believe as well. I searched through a lot and filtered out the stuff I didn't believe, and came to a decision on my own. Some people that I have read about and actually told my mom that Ionized alkaline water will cure cancer. I'm extremely skeptical about that claim. While I do believe the water may help to prevent cancer, that's different than actually curing cancer on its own.

I'd love to try the neg OPR water, but I am not doing a $1,500 experiment. I filter my water as it is, and they are no where near this expensive.

I can certainly understand your apprehension with spending that kind of money for something you're not sure of.

I filter my water as it is, and they are no where near this expensive.

I understand, but the machine does more than filter the water. But, If you're not sure it does what it says, then I can see why you wouldn't want to spend that much.

I have no doubt that much of the disease we see is due to long term dietary issues. Our foods are full of pestisides. Our water is full of added chemicals. Most foods begin to lose their nutrient quality as soon as they are picked, so much of what we consume does not deliver. In addition we have a diet full of processed food full of high fructose corn syrup, and all kinds of additives and preservatives.

I agree

I use to suffer from acid reflux and was on prescription for this. We are just now starting to know the long term implications of Nexium, Prilosec, etc. I also suffered from bad seasonal allergies and was on scrip for this as well. Since cutting out processed sugars and carbs and other dietary changes, these symptoms simply dissapeared. Guess how many doctors suggested diet and exercise? ZERO. Not to mention chronic head aches and other pains that dissapeared.

Are you sure the symptoms disappeared? Just from a healthier diet and exercise? Sounds like placebo effect to me .

My mother is on blood pressure, diabetes, and arthritis meds. She is 80 pds or more overwieght. Docs continue to feed her scrips, and want to do hip replacement. All without suggesting, much less demanding, that she lose weight. She could reduce if not get off these meds simply by diet and exercise, as all of these are onset through her weight problem.

Are you actually saying that if she ate better and exercised, that she might not need her meds anymore? I'm not sure I'd believe that. I don't see how there could be any correlation between eating healthy, and someone's health. What kind of outrageous things are you proposing? Why should anyone eat better and exercise to make us healthier, when we can just take medicines to alleviate our symptoms?

Almost all drugs treats symptoms. Symptoms of the body malfunctioning. Yes, there are conditions and diseases that are not due to diet. But if you look at prescription drugs, you will see that there are billions of dollars made on drugs that deal with health problems that are created by poor health choices.

Are you saying that drug companies are getting rich off us when most of our symtoms could be helped by eating better? What an unbelievable concept!

Putting bad things into the body can cause disease and cancer. If not, then start smoking and injesting asbestos. Keeping the wrong things out ,and putting the right things in can and will help the body. Is Neg ORP water the right thing? I don't know.

You are exactly right. Keep searching for yourself, and you can sift through the truths and false claims to see what I've been talking about. Jlay, the sarcastic comments weren't meant towards you. I'm being sarcastic because what you're saying is such a simple concept. You're saying much of the same stuff I've been saying, and it's so simple that I don't understand why people cant see it.

[RickD]

People are smart enough to realize that chemo and medicine don't cure disease.


It doesn't?

Chemo kills healthy cells as well as the cancerous cells. Medicine doesn't cure diseases, it sometimes alleviates symptoms. Medicine may also have long term side effects that may be worse than the symptoms that it alleviated in the first place.

I'm really amazed to see that statement from you, as well as your professed belief that people who don't agree with you must just be ignorant of what cancer is and how it is caused and forms.

How were you told that healthy cells become cancerous?

My dad died of cancer and I'm not all that happy with the organization that he turned to to place his hope and practice, but I don't blame them for his death. I'm very willing to give some credit to my Dad, that faced with stage 4 kidney cancer he was at a place where medicine definitely had some limitations. He was not inclined to trust medicine or doctors (which sadly explains how he reached that stage in the first place as he wouldn't go in to see a doctor even for a minimal check-up.) Faced with a prognosis of 6 mos - 2 years to live, he chose to use evey other means he could to fight the disease, and he lived 6 years. I'm grateful that he chose to diet and lose 70 pounds. I'm grateful that he went on a Vegan diet and juiced believing it would help him; and I think it did help him. I'm grateful that he exercised. I'm grateful that he prayed and enlisted many to pray for him.

If your Dad had a type of cancer that conventional treatments could not help, and was given 6 mos. - 2 years to live by conventional doctors, then I believe that living 6 years was great.

I'm not particularly happy with the organization he attached to, who took his testimony of his "healing" and published and used it to promote their organization and lead others to believe that this was a cure for cancer.

Did the company print a retraction after they found out your Dad died? I would be all over them if that was my Dad.

It was mercifully quick and right up to the last 2 months of his life he lived a good quality of life.

My aunt tried chemo, and here last months were miserable. She was constantly sick from the chemo, and probably would have been better off without it.

When you make a statement like that above Rick, you're doing more than advocating a method that you've found to be helpful to you. I have no problem with you advocating the water you do. I don't believe you're lying. I believe you believe what you're saying even while I recognize that there is not necessarily a cause/effect relationship. There may be. I don't know, and frankly, beyond your strong belief Rick, in the absence of formal studies you don't know either.

Bart, either there is a cause/effect relationship with the water, or I'm lying. Because you can't find studies formal enough to "make" you believe, doesn't mean studies don't exist. I already said that if someone really wanted to find some studies, Japan and Korea would be the place to search because the machines have been used there for decades. If you don't want to take the time to search in that direction, I can certainly understand. But, don't keep saying there is an absence of studies. I agree that studies are lacking in this country, but the concept isn't well known here.

Correlation does not establish cause. That's true on a large scale when you have data from thousands of people. It's even more true when you're dealing with just one person and what they're claiming in terms of their own beliefs as to what has made an impact on their health. Our bodies are systems, and there's far more than just one factor that affects our overall health, many of which we're not aware.

Bart, after drinking the water, certain things happened to me. Either they happened because of what I believe the water does, or they happened because of something else the water does that I don't know about. Either way the water has helped me. I haven't changed anything else.

With your first statement you've eliminated medicine as a "cure" for anything so I guess that leaves the alternatives you're advocating here. There are no guarantees in life, beyond the assurance we have in Christ of eternity with Him. Medicine is not perfect. There's nothing wrong with seeking as well through diet, exercise and other methods to promote health.

Imo medicines are mostly used because of poor diet. If we had a better diet and healthier water, a great majority of medicines wouldn't be needed. How do you know you have assurance in Christ, Bart? You've seen the changes in you from The Holy Spirit inside you, correct? The greatest skeptic couldn't convince you that God's spirit doesn't reside in you, right? Even if the skeptic wanted scientific proof for the changes that God has done in your life? It's the same thing on a much, much smaller scale with what the water has done for me. No skeptic could convince me that God hasn't worked in my life, no matter what that skeptic claims. I KNOW how God has changed, and continues to change me. Just like I know that something is different since I've been drinking the water. Just to be clear, I'm not equating the water with God. Just equating that I KNOW that there have been changes.

I sure wouldn't want to be in a position to tell someone with certainty on my part that something absolutely will not work. That would include telling someone that chemo and medicine won't cure disease

Do you have any proof that chemo or medicine has "cured" anything?

I really hope you reconsider that Rick and that that was just an overstatement in the passion of discussing this issue

If all someone is looking for is possible relief of symptoms, then medicine may "work" for that.

I'm a 24 year cancer survivor myself and I can tell you with a pretty high degree of certainty if I had not undergone surgery and radiation treatment I would not be alive right now.

Could you guarantee that a close to 100% alkaline diet would not have removed the cancer from your body without surgery?

Where would I be, Rick, if I took the point of view that medicine had nothing to offer me and that, in your words, "They are searching for something that actually cures what they have, and not just a relief for symptoms. Some people find the cure, others don't.

24 years ago, you may have died, or you may not have. Only God knows. Today, we have people that have been cured of their cancerous condition without chemo and drugs. Look at all the testimonies. There is another option besides drugs and chemo. Again, I'm not telling anyone to take my word for it. There are plenty of people that have found out themselves about what I'm saying.

You claim you're not advocating people go off of medications and trust these methods but then you make a statement like that and you reference claims to articles based heavily on the discredited work of 2 men. Then you claim, you didn't really mean to endorse all of the articles, you just mean the parts of the articles that deal with alkaline water and nothing else.

Yes, I already explained that.

. Do you really want people to take what you've said here and go out and buy a water machine and not see a doctor or follow through on even medical procedures and treatments that have a better than 90% success rate, versus doing nothing which, at least in my case, would likely have lead to my death before the age of 30 if it was left untreated?

Bart, where have I ever said anything like that? I'm saying that people need to search on their own and come to their own decision. I NEVER said that I believe ionized alkaline water can cure a cancerous condition. I believe that cancerous cells thrive in an environment deprived of oxygen, and that if the body is fed with oxygen, through alkaline foods, and water(which both are full of oxygen) then the cancerous cells cannot survive in an oxygenated environment. Dr. Otto Warburg won a nobel prize on this. I never, as you suggest I said, told anyone to do nothing.

I'm addrressing this to your statement, and not you personally. Please, rethink and reconsider the scope and extent of the statements you're making. Cancer survival rates are increasing. In some cases dramatically, and they are doing so for a combination of factors which includes, earlier detection (check-ups) and increasingly effective treatments which in many cases alleviate symptoms (I'll grant you that) but also DO RESULT IN CURES, with documented follow-ups over a sustained period of time.

What outrageous claims do you think I'm making? What effective treatments are you referring to that "DO RESULT IN CURES"? When you had surgery, do you think you were "cured", or was something removed? Some women have been told they have a "gene" for breast cancer. Some of those women as young as teens or early 20's are choosing to have there breasts removed as a "preventative measure" so they won't get breast cancer. That is what some conventional doctors are promoting. It all comes down to my decision to believe that God created our bodies to function in a certain way. We need certain things to function the way God intended. When we neglect to give our bodies what God created for us to use, then we get sick. We can choose to use the things God created for us to live healthier or become healthy, or choose to believe fallible doctors, and man-made "cures".

[Canuckster1127]

Rick,

We're covering old territory so that leads me to believe most of the possibilities between this conversation have expired.

I provided you with statistical documentation of cancer survival rates and you ignored them and have indicated that it's my responsibility to find your proof for your statements. It's your responsibility to provide evidence for your claims and all you've provided is your personal experience and then indicated that anyone who doesn't believe you is calling you a liar. There's nothing more I can do for you in this particular line of conversation until you provide evidence for your claims. It's patently ridiculous to make a blanket claim that medical science hasn't provided cures for disease. It certainly hasn't provided cures for all disease, and it certainly at times creates more problems than it solves. That's a far cry from your assertions and I've exhausted my efforts in that area. I can't make you see what you're not willing to see. Neither can I help you further to understand the difference between correlation and causation.

A few clean-ups for me on my end. I agree with you that my father was fortunate to live 6 years beyond his diagnoses. No argument. Medicine had nothing to do with that. There's no question that nutrition, exercise and a positive attitude can yield results, sometimes in excess of what medicine can do, especially in the latter stages of cancer.

I did pursue the organization involved. They didn't publish a retraction. They did however, at my insistnace, after several exchanges which ended with my ultimatum that if they didn't I would use all means at my disposal to expose them in this regard, publish an update in their newletter The update they issued included several intentional edits of my notice to them as well as a strong inference in their statement that my father died because he must have deviated from their diet plan.

I am a top book reviewer at Amazon.com and I used that venue to review some of their books. The irony is that those reviews are now in the spotlight and available for all to read in advance of their purchasing their books. I've received numerous messages and emails as well as requests from the organization to take the reviews down. I've held my ground on leaving them up and for the past 4 years Amazon has agreed with me and left them up. Here's a link to one of them.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R2BDPC1O2Y ... hisHelpful

Your end statement makes it clear to me Rick where you're coming from. My faith is in God. I'm thankful for modern medicine and the strides it has made in prolonging life, maintaining health, and yes, often providing cures. You're welcome to practice and claim what you wish. You're not however, free to make claims such as you have without challenge and I think there's enough here that anyone reading through this thread can examine the support and positions espoused and decide for themselves.

I hope your situation for your wife and the flu shots works out well, even if I disagree with the assertions and claims that then morphed to where this conversation is now.

blessings to you,

bart

[zoegirl]

Questions:

1) Has God designed our bodies with certain optimal needs (nutrition, sleep, exercise)....Of course (this is not news to any physician)
2) Can compromising these needs compromise function....of course (again, not news to any physician)
3) Can these lead to disease....sometimes....(vitamin deficiency) (again not news)
4). Are these the ONLY thing that cause disease....OF COURSE NOT.

5) Can otherwise healthy people still get sick? Of course!! Bacteria, viruses, (in fact, with the H1N1 virus there were curious statistics with those who were the strongest getting the sickest. Their immune system simply reacted the most in a cytokine storm). That's partly why the 1918 flu pandemic struck ridiculously healthy young men in their peak of their health.
6) Are we supposed to investigate causes to disease outside of deficiencies....???

And while having breast surgery to reduce the risk of cancer is extreme, if family genetics and genetic testing showed that I had the gene for breast cancer (and why in the world would you object to the idea of there being a gene for cancer? Oncogenes are well-established in cancer research...oh wait, they are all greedy doctors in a conspiracy to cause cancer.) I would certainly increase the screenings I had for breast cancer.

[RickD]

I provided you with statistical documentation of cancer survival rates and you ignored them and have indicated that it's my responsibility to find your proof for your statements.

I didn't ignore them. I t was just statistics that showed survival rates. It didn't show why people survived, thus not proving your point that chemo and drugs heal cancer. I didn't mean it's your responsibility to find proof for anything. You made the claim that there is absence of studies. I told you where the studies would possibly be(Japan,Korea) if you were really searching for the studies. It is obvious to me that you aren't being honest about this, and just want to "win" an argument. I have no desire to prove to you that studies exist. Whether or not studies exist doesn't matter to me. I didn't make my decisions about this by reading scientific studies.

It's your responsibility to provide evidence for your claims and all you've provided is your personal experience and then indicated that anyone who doesn't believe you is calling you a liar.

In your mind it's my responsibility to provide evidence. This is not a court of law. I originally made a point to Zoe that I believe alkaline foods and water would help her. If she is interested in something other than medicine, then it's on her to search. If she doesn't want to take what I said and find out on her own if it makes sense, then that's her choice. I only said that you were calling me a liar, Bart. Because you said that while you believed I believed what I said, it must be a placebo effect.

There's nothing more I can do for you in this particular line of conversation until you provide evidence for your claims.

Why do you think I need you to do something for me?

It's patently ridiculous to make a blanket claim that medical science hasn't provided cures for disease

Show me the quote that I said "medical science hasn't provided cures for disease".

A few clean-ups for me on my end. I agree with you that my father was fortunate to live 6 years beyond his diagnoses. No argument. Medicine had nothing to do with that

If he had such positive results from whatever nutritional plan he followed, could it be possible that he may have had better results from a "better" plan?

There's no question that nutrition, exercise and a positive attitude can yield results, sometimes in excess of what medicine can do, especially in the latter stages of cancer.

Am I reading this correctly? Are you almost agreeing with me? There is a possibility that someone can be so far along, and the cancerous cells are so prevalent, that maybe nothing can be done at that point. I'm not sure.

I am a top book reviewer at Amazon.com and I used that venue to review some of their books. The irony is that those reviews are now in the spotlight and available for all to read in advance of their purchasing their books. I've received numerous messages and emails as well as requests from the organization to take the reviews down. I've held my ground on leaving them up and for the past 4 years Amazon has agreed with me and left them up. Here's a link to one of them.

Bart, that's quite a post about your Dad. I can see why you're so skeptical about this, after what you went through with your Dad.

Your end statement makes it clear to me Rick where you're coming from. My faith is in God. I'm thankful for modern medicine and the strides it has made in prolonging life, maintaining health, and yes, often providing cures. You're welcome to practice and claim what you wish. You're not however, free to make claims such as you have without challenge and I think there's enough here that anyone reading through this thread can examine the support and positions espoused and decide for themselves.

Bart, I have no problem with anyone "honestly" challenging anything I say. You were saying that there is an absence of studies. I told you where I've been told the studies exist. If you need studies to see that what I'm saying is true, then you are free to search where I told you. If you want to continue to claim that there are no studies, while not looking where I said, then it seems that you aren't being completely honest with your claim of an absence of studies. There is a lot of information out there that people can see for themselves. Don't take my word for it. Don't take your word for it.

I hope your situation for your wife and the flu shots works out well, even if I disagree with the assertions and claims that then morphed to where this conversation is now.

Thanks, Bart. She started wearing a mask yesterday at work. A doctor already came up to her and told her "it's not too late to get the flu shot." The hospital looks bad when they wanted 100% compliance by employees getting the shot.

[RickD]

5) Can otherwise healthy people still get sick? Of course!! Bacteria, viruses, (in fact, with the H1N1 virus there were curious statistics with those who were the strongest getting the sickest. Their immune system simply reacted the most in a cytokine storm). That's partly why the 1918 flu pandemic struck ridiculously healthy young men in their peak of their health.

Zoe, it depends on what one means by healthy. According to alkaline proponents, disease cannot thrive in an alkaline(oxygenated) body. If the bacteria, viruses encounter a "healthy" person(alkaline, oxygenated), the viruses cannot live in that person. That person has a healthy immune system that viruses cannot affect. Were the young men that you say the flu pandemic struck, truly healthy?

6) Are we supposed to investigate causes to disease outside of deficiencies....???

If the body is healthy(enough alkaline buffers to offset the metabolic acidity), then disease cannot take hold. Is it just a coincidence that I haven't been sick, or am allergy free since drinking alkaline water? I don't even eat healthy.

(and why in the world would you object to the idea of there being a gene for cancer?

I didn't object to that. Show me where I objected.

oh wait, they are all greedy doctors in a conspiracy to cause cancer.

Zoe, are you serious? I never said all doctors are greedy, or in a conspiracy to cause cancer. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say I can take HONEST criticism. This is dishonest. You are arguing with me while using dishonest statements that I don't believe, and never said. Zoe, I posted about this topic of alkaline foods and water because I truly believe that if you changed your diet to near 100% alkaline foods and water, your arthritis would disappear. That is the only reason I started talking about this. I have no ulterior motives at all. You need to look at the concept of alkalinity and acidity. Focusing on greedy sales people takes away from the message itself. Here's a hypothetical example: I went to buy a Honda Accord, because after researching, I concluded it is the most reliable car and is very safe for my family. I went to several Honda dealers and found their sales people to be very pushy, greedy, and dishonest. Does that mean that the Accord is not a good car? It just means that the people selling it are suspect. Do your research if you're truly interested. If you're not, then fine. I have no motive other than I think you will be helped by what I say. I hope you consider that.

[RickD]

Has anyone looked at what Dr. Otto Warburg has said on the subject? another person who may be of interest is Dr. Hidemitsu Hayashi, M.D. Director, Water Institute of Japan.