Is it a bit overwhelming sometimes?

[Mariolee]

Not Christianity, but Atheists.

Now, I hate using the term Atheist as if they're some rare creatures that we try to stay away from, but I'm going to use it here for the sake of easier comprehension of my point. I like to spend some of my off time on message boards, and most of them are populated by tons of people who don't exactly believe in God. And sometimes it's overwhelming to talk about faith with someone who's stone cold atheist.

Like I found an argument on one, and one of the posts preyed on my weakest most embarrassing fear:

Do you like the idea of spending your entire life worshiping a formless deity that you believe exists only because you've had it drilled into your head since birth, as well as preaching this apparition of yours to countless non-believers (also known as rational people), only to find at the moment of your death that where you go when you die is either a grave or a crematorium, and nothing further; realizing that you've wasted your life over something that doesn't exist?

just checking....

Really, I don't have a problem with people who practice a religion, though I don't agree with it myself. But the twats that go around condemning people to "hell" who don't subscribe exactly to their particular brand of [nonsense] irk me. Get off your high horse man, you know nothing more than the rest of the human world about what's really out there.

The fear of at the moment of my death, I might find that there is truly nothing else after. I mean, I have Faith in God, totally, but there are some instances of weakness that I need Him, but I'm afraid He won't come, because He's not there. In fact, before my renewed journey to find God, what initiated it was the fear of nothing else after. Anyway, my real question is, do you ever feel overwhelmed by Atheists?

[BavarianWheels]

Anyway, my real question is, do you ever feel overwhelmed by Atheists?

Not necessarily overwhelmed, but frustrated in knowing they have just as much evidence to disbelieve.
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[Sudsy]

Anyway, my real question is, do you ever feel overwhelmed by Atheists?

No, my hope is not built on what man concludes but what scriptures and the Holy Spirit tells me. I don't feel any dislike for Atheists and some I know are very good people and even better examples of Christlikeness than some Christians. But until they give an ear to what the Spirit is saying to them, they will only have their human reasonings as they cannot understand spiritual things. I guess I would say I'm overwhelmed by the thought I cannot save them but not overwhelmed by the promise that God can save anyone. Our God is mighty to save.

But these unbelievers do make some points about our Christianity that should make us stop and check out.

Regarding this argument about us spending time following Christ and in the end, find out it was a lie - sadly the asssumption is we would have wasted our time here on earth. That in itself does not speak well for our Christianity. If our Christianity is coming across as not an abundant life regardless of the sufferings we go through, then why would they think differently ? To them it looks like a lot of sacrifice for nothing. Our joy in the Lord should manifest itself as a far greater joy than an eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, kind of living.

And the point that we have an elitest attitude and condemn people who don't believe as we do is also correct for some believers. Sometimes we believers forget that but for the grace of God there go I. I have heard some very ruthless, non-caring, hell-fire preaching in my day where there really was not a concern for the lost but rather just a need to tell others they were wrong and going to hell. Unbelievers can pick up on those attitudes.

Mariolee, all we can do is share the 'good news' and allow God to work in and through us to manifest His glory. Our hope is based on faith and we have nothing to fear. Faith and fear are opposites. Faith thoughts will stop up our fear thoughts. And faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. So, to settle our fears, we need more time in the scriptures building up our faith and killing our fears. As we get more love for Christ our fears get cast out and we experience a peace that passes all understanding.

God bless.

[jlay]

The fear of at the moment of my death, I might find that there is truly nothing else after. I mean, I have Faith in God, totally, but there are some instances of weakness that I need Him, but I'm afraid He won't come, because He's not there. In fact, before my renewed journey to find God, what initiated it was the fear of nothing else after. Anyway, my real question is, do you ever feel overwhelmed by Atheists?

We should feel overwhelmed. And overwhelming concern for their eternal fate. They are deceived, and will perish in their unbelief. All of our responses to them should be motivated out of obedience to our Lord, and to love them as He has commanded. The best way we can love them is to share the truth with them. Not religious gobbledygook, or touchy feely garbage. But truth. And you need to always realize when you are in a discussion where there is no potential for fruit. If they insist on ad hominems and personal attacks, then you just need to step away.

Hey, if they are right, then they don't even get the pleasure of saying, "I told you so." If they are wrong,.......well, eternity is LONG time to be wrong. It is these type of emotional, condescending replies that demonstrate that we are dealing not with the intellect, but with spiritual blindness.

Get off your high horse man, you know nothing more than the rest of the human world about what's really out there.

You see this is a statement that says what you can or can not know. It is just as arrogant as condemning them to hell. They are condeming you was well. Funny how they don't see it that way.

[Mariolee]

Anyway, my real question is, do you ever feel overwhelmed by Atheists?

No, my hope is not built on what man concludes but what scriptures and the Holy Spirit tells me. I don't feel any dislike for Atheists and some I know are very good people and even better examples of Christlikeness than some Christians. But until they give an ear to what the Spirit is saying to them, they will only have their human reasonings as they cannot understand spiritual things. I guess I would say I'm overwhelmed by the thought I cannot save them but not overwhelmed by the promise that God can save anyone. Our God is mighty to save.

But these unbelievers do make some points about our Christianity that should make us stop and check out.

Regarding this argument about us spending time following Christ and in the end, find out it was a lie - sadly the asssumption is we would have wasted our time here on earth. That in itself does not speak well for our Christianity. If our Christianity is coming across as not an abundant life regardless of the sufferings we go through, then why would they think differently ? To them it looks like a lot of sacrifice for nothing. Our joy in the Lord should manifest itself as a far greater joy than an eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, kind of living.

And the point that we have an elitest attitude and condemn people who don't believe as we do is also correct for some believers. Sometimes we believers forget that but for the grace of God there go I. I have heard some very ruthless, non-caring, hell-fire preaching in my day where there really was not a concern for the lost but rather just a need to tell others they were wrong and going to hell. Unbelievers can pick up on those attitudes.

Mariolee, all we can do is share the 'good news' and allow God to work in and through us to manifest His glory. Our hope is based on faith and we have nothing to fear. Faith and fear are opposites. Faith thoughts will stop up our fear thoughts. And faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. So, to settle our fears, we need more time in the scriptures building up our faith and killing our fears. As we get more love for Christ our fears get cast out and we experience a peace that passes all understanding.

God bless.

I totally agree. But I guess it's that whole "blind faith" thing that always gets me. It seems that nowadays whenever I turn on the TV, they're showing Christians objectively as a crazy cult. Like I was just watching Smallville, and it centered around Lois being captured by this Amish sort of town where they sacrificed women each year for 20 years because when the Kryptonite meteor shower (stay with me) killed a daughter there, their crops and health became totally perfect, and so they thought it was because of the woman "sacrificing" her life that the Lord was blessing them.
My expression throughout most of it:

For one, the Bible clearly states that Jesus was the last sacrifice, and of course thou shalt not murder (which was brought up in the episode but ignored by the townfolk), and I can't help but feel there was a religious slam there that Christians and the like simply follow blindly and are crazy, and I'm scared that this sends the wrong message. Also see my "Are Christians like Pharisees" thread where I posted another example of a popular tv show sorta slamming religion a bit.

The fear of at the moment of my death, I might find that there is truly nothing else after. I mean, I have Faith in God, totally, but there are some instances of weakness that I need Him, but I'm afraid He won't come, because He's not there. In fact, before my renewed journey to find God, what initiated it was the fear of nothing else after. Anyway, my real question is, do you ever feel overwhelmed by Atheists?

We should feel overwhelmed. And overwhelming concern for their eternal fate. They are deceived, and will perish in their unbelief. All of our responses to them should be motivated out of obedience to our Lord, and to love them as He has commanded. The best way we can love them is to share the truth with them. Not religious gobbledygook, or touchy feely garbage. But truth. And you need to always realize when you are in a discussion where there is no potential for fruit. If they insist on ad hominems and personal attacks, then you just need to step away.

Hey, if they are right, then they don't even get the pleasure of saying, "I told you so." If they are wrong,.......well, eternity is LONG time to be wrong. It is these type of emotional, condescending replies that demonstrate that we are dealing not with the intellect, but with spiritual blindness.

Get off your high horse man, you know nothing more than the rest of the human world about what's really out there.

You see this is a statement that says what you can or can not know. It is just as arrogant as condemning them to hell. They are condeming you was well. Funny how they don't see it that way.

I agree with your message, but not with how you're displaying it. I mean, when you say

They are deceived, and will perish in their unbelief. All of our responses to them should be motivated out of obedience to our Lord, and to love them as He has commanded.

It seems very...cultist and condemning.

But I do agree with your point in that they're a lot of times condescending. I can't help but feel that some people are atheists just to give their ego a stroke, to feel as if they are more intelligent than us, that we're somehow a detriment to society and keep it from growing, which is a load of crap in my opinion.

I don't know. I'm frustrated and confused.

[Kurieuo]

Anyway, my real question is, do you ever feel overwhelmed by Atheists?

Not necessarily overwhelmed, but frustrated in knowing they have just as much evidence to disbelieve.
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Just as much evidence?? Did that come out right?

[Sudsy]

I can't help but feel that some people are atheists just to give their ego a stroke, to feel as if they are more intelligent than us, that we're somehow a detriment to society and keep it from growing, which is a load of crap in my opinion.

But that is what a Christ follower is all about. They thought they were smarter than Jesus; they were certainly more ego driven (Pharises especially); and thought Him to be a 'detriment to society' ('Crucify Him !'). But scripture tells us otherwise - we are the salt of the earth. Scripture also says in 1 Cor. 1:18 - For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. So, the way they are acting and thinking is quite normal until they believe.

We must be willing to suffer for righteousness sake. Matthew 5:11-12 - "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

So, regardless of what unbelievers think about us and do to us, we can 'rejoice and be glad' because someday we will receive a great reward in heaven. That makes being a Christ follower very exciting to think about. If it wasn't for God's grace to me, I'm sure I would be thinking and acting quite similar to unbelievers.

[Gman]

The fear of at the moment of my death, I might find that there is truly nothing else after. I mean, I have Faith in God, totally, but there are some instances of weakness that I need Him, but I'm afraid He won't come, because He's not there. In fact, before my renewed journey to find God, what initiated it was the fear of nothing else after. Anyway, my real question is, do you ever feel overwhelmed by Atheists?

The more I study atheism and what they believe, the stronger I get. I've been on this forum for many years now and it certainly has strengthened my beliefs in God..

Atheism is a FAILURE. Most certainly, and I love debating that....

Not only is it a failure to comprehend our physical world, but our spiritual world as well. We serve a God of LOVE!! Not hate. Atheism has FAILED to understand this simple concept. Therefore they reap the consequences of their actions.

The greatest secret in the world today is that the BIBLE is the word of God, and those who find God actually find their own lives.. Proverbs 8:35

[jlay]

It seems very...cultist and condemning.

Can you elaborate on why you think this is cultist? Keep in mind Mariolee, this isn't my opinion. This is what the Bible teaches.

[Mariolee]

It seems very...cultist and condemning.

Can you elaborate on why you think this is cultist? Keep in mind Mariolee, this isn't my opinion. This is what the Bible teaches.

I'm definitely not saying you're wrong, but it's just the way you present the idea of hell, that they will perish for all eternity. It's not exactly welcoming for them. And you sorta present it as a "bright side" for me. Like you're saying, 'Don't worry Mariolee, you don't have to worry about them making fun of you. Some day you'll be in Heaven with God while they perish in Hell.'

But the thing is, I don't want them to burn in Hell. In fact, if I had my way (which Thank God I don't) I would take out the doctrine of Hell completely out.

And that's why it seems "cultist", because you almost seem to take joy in knowing that others will be in Hell. I know you don't, but the way you said it just made it seem that way to me.

[jlay]

First Mariolee,

I'm not presenting to them. I'm presenting it to you. The fact that their eternal fate is at stake. Should we be concerned about their eternal condition? I think you would agree, yes. Not sure how you arrive at some of these conclusions.

And you sorta present it as a "bright side" for me. Like you're saying, 'Don't worry Mariolee, you don't have to worry about them making fun of you. Some day you'll be in Heaven with God while they perish in Hell.'

I'm often amazed at how people hear something, when it isn't there. This isn't at all what I am saying. Not even close.

But the thing is, I don't want them to burn in Hell. In fact, if I had my way (which Thank God I don't) I would take out the doctrine of Hell completely out.

Who is being cultish here? Do you understand what defines a cult?

And that's why it seems "cultist", because you almost seem to take joy in knowing that others will be in Hell. I know you don't, but the way you said it just made it seem that way to me.

That is utterly preposterous. I said no such thing. I said specifically, "We should feel overwhelmed. And overwhelming concern for their eternal fate." and, "All of our responses to them should be motivated out of obedience to our Lord, and to love them as He has commanded."
Where in the world do you arrive at the conclusion that I take joy in knowing others will be in Hell? I believe you owe me a apology here Mariolee, because you are way off base.

All that said, we must equip ourselves to understand judgment, wrath, etc. They are most assuredly biblical truths and they can't be swept under the rug because they make us uncomfortable, or might be offensive to others. In fact, I am very confused how someone could come to Christ with out understanding the personal nature of sin and just what it was that Jesus has rescued us from.
Imagine you went to the doctor and the test revealed that you had a terminal disease. But, your doctor decided not to tell you because he thought it was too harsh and didn't like to share bad news. Would he be a good doctor?

This doesn't mean we run up to people and scream, "you are going to Hell!!" Heaven forbid. But that doesn't mean we neglect teaching all of what the scriptures say regarding man, sin and the judgment to come. Acts 24:25

[Kurieuo]

And that's why it seems "cultist", because you almost seem to take joy in knowing that others will be in Hell. I know you don't, but the way you said it just made it seem that way to me.

That is utterly preposterous. I said no such thing. I said specifically, "We should feel overwhelmed. And overwhelming concern for their eternal fate." and, "All of our responses to them should be motivated out of obedience to our Lord, and to love them as He has commanded."
Where in the world do you arrive at the conclusion that I take joy in knowing others will be in Hell? I believe you owe me a apology here Mariolee, because you are way off base.

All that said, we must equip ourselves to understand judgment, wrath, etc. They are most assuredly biblical truths and they can't be swept under the rug because they make us uncomfortable, or might be offensive to others. In fact, I am very confused how someone could come to Christ with out understanding the personal nature of sin and just what it was that Jesus has rescued us from.
Imagine you went to the doctor and the test revealed that you had a terminal disease. But, your doctor decided not to tell you because he thought it was too harsh and didn't like to share bad news. Would he be a good doctor?

This doesn't mean we run up to people and scream, "you are going to Hell!!" Heaven forbid. But that doesn't mean we neglect teaching all of what the scriptures say regarding man, sin and the judgment to come. Acts 24:25

It is interesting that those who disagree with the doctrine of hell often love to paint a picture that those who believe it exists relish in joy that many will spend eternity there.

Christ taught hell exists. So if anyone disagrees with the existence of a place such as hell, then their disagreement is not with Christians who are merely following Christ's teachings, but rather Christ Himself as recorded in Scripture.

[Mariolee]

First Mariolee,

I'm not presenting to them. I'm presenting it to you. The fact that their eternal fate is at stake. Should we be concerned about their eternal condition? I think you would agree, yes. Not sure how you arrive at some of these conclusions.

And you sorta present it as a "bright side" for me. Like you're saying, 'Don't worry Mariolee, you don't have to worry about them making fun of you. Some day you'll be in Heaven with God while they perish in Hell.'

I'm often amazed at how people hear something, when it isn't there. This isn't at all what I am saying. Not even close.

But the thing is, I don't want them to burn in Hell. In fact, if I had my way (which Thank God I don't) I would take out the doctrine of Hell completely out.

Who is being cultish here? Do you understand what defines a cult?

And that's why it seems "cultist", because you almost seem to take joy in knowing that others will be in Hell. I know you don't, but the way you said it just made it seem that way to me.

That is utterly preposterous. I said no such thing. I said specifically, "We should feel overwhelmed. And overwhelming concern for their eternal fate." and, "All of our responses to them should be motivated out of obedience to our Lord, and to love them as He has commanded."
Where in the world do you arrive at the conclusion that I take joy in knowing others will be in Hell? I believe you owe me a apology here Mariolee, because you are way off base.

All that said, we must equip ourselves to understand judgment, wrath, etc. They are most assuredly biblical truths and they can't be swept under the rug because they make us uncomfortable, or might be offensive to others. In fact, I am very confused how someone could come to Christ with out understanding the personal nature of sin and just what it was that Jesus has rescued us from.
Imagine you went to the doctor and the test revealed that you had a terminal disease. But, your doctor decided not to tell you because he thought it was too harsh and didn't like to share bad news. Would he be a good doctor?

This doesn't mean we run up to people and scream, "you are going to Hell!!" Heaven forbid. But that doesn't mean we neglect teaching all of what the scriptures say regarding man, sin and the judgment to come. Acts 24:25

I misunderstood you, sorry. :p I understand that Hell is a very real place, and that's why I hate it so much. I believe that C.S. Lewis said that if he could take out one doctrine of the Bible, it would be Hell.
But it's hard to tell people who don't believe in a God, to believe in a fiery Hell, and that's really frustrating. So all in all, I agree with you jlay and Kurieuo.

[mandelduke]

Not Christianity, but Atheists.

Now, I hate using the term Atheist as if they're some rare creatures that we try to stay away from, but I'm going to use it here for the sake of easier comprehension of my point. I like to spend some of my off time on message boards, and most of them are populated by tons of people who don't exactly believe in God. And sometimes it's overwhelming to talk about faith with someone who's stone cold atheist.

Like I found an argument on one, and one of the posts preyed on my weakest most embarrassing fear:

Do you like the idea of spending your entire life worshiping a formless deity that you believe exists only because you've had it drilled into your head since birth, as well as preaching this apparition of yours to countless non-believers (also known as rational people), only to find at the moment of your death that where you go when you die is either a grave or a crematorium, and nothing further; realizing that you've wasted your life over something that doesn't exist?

just checking....

“Mariolee” it is not wise to argue faith with a atheist, when you have such little faith yourself. It will only hurt your faith, and give the atheist more reason not to believe. Faith comes from the word of God. Assurance comes from having a relationship with God.

Really, I don't have a problem with people who practice a religion, though I don't agree with it myself. But the twats that go around condemning people to "hell" who don't subscribe exactly to their particular brand of [nonsense] irk me. Get off your high horse man, you know nothing more than the rest of the human world about what's really out there.

The fear of at the moment of my death, I might find that there is truly nothing else after. I mean, I have Faith in God, totally, but there are some instances of weakness that I need Him, but I'm afraid He won't come, because He's not there. In fact, before my renewed journey to find God, what initiated it was the fear of nothing else after. Anyway, my real question is, do you ever feel overwhelmed by Atheists?

[MarcusOfLycia]

In reply to the original topic... I feel similar sometimes. There are points when I think I understand the atheist perspective better than the atheists (funny thing is sometimes I feel like I have better arguments against God's existence then they do). It gets overwhelming sometimes because I know Christians spread Christ's message out of love and wanting others to know Him, but atheists seem to spread it in an attempt to sound smarter than everyone else (this is a generalization based on people I know personally... it certainly doesn't apply to everyone).

Sometimes it just feels easier to give up. And yet... I haven't. Things happen that change my mind and reinforce my position. Little things that might not mean much to other people but make a world of difference to me, all timed perfectly. And then, I watch the character of the atheists I know manifest itself in all its ugliness and come to an even deeper understanding of the fact that faith in objective morality based on an Omnipotent God is required for any society that wants to be more than dysfunctional.

My biggest problem is that I wish more Christians thought about this stuff. There is a treasure trove of powerful and beautiful minds out there that could help counter some of this stuff, but it always seems to fall on a small number of people who just exhaust themselves in an effort to deal with it all.