Did Jesus kill a man for gathering firewood on the Sabbath?

[Canuckster1127]

I have a former professor/friend who has been a missionary to Muslim Communities in Ivory Coast, Paris and Turkey. When we've discussed his success and reaching Muslims it's almost always focused upon relationship building and very little upon debate. Islam is very much tied into a reinforcing community to where any appeal away from the religion also is a decision to lose community and family. Despite that, he indicated that there really is a curiosity to know and understand things outside Islam and with that comes the opportunity to present Christ. Missionaries in that context however, often are more effective in roles outside of formal ministry and the fruits are often very difficult to see. There is, however, a stonger and stronger "middle" outside of the religious extremist factions (which are minorities overall in Islam but highly concentrated within some countries) that is being "westernized" and with that are developing more courage to question some things and in that context some turn to Christ.

[jlay]

Really? That would be the only reason possible to have a problem with some of what you've said?

Any possibility that you carry any misconceptions about God and how he views and deals with sin?

Let me rephrase.

And a reason people have a problem with this could have to do with their own misconceptions about God and His judgments against sin.

Is that better?

Any possibility that you carry any misconceptions about God and how he views and deals with sin?

I guess I could be snarky and say Phil 4:13. My experience is that I am constantly being streched in my understanding of God and His nature. There have been times in my life where I became very aware that, yes, I was living under a misconception. That I had formed a God in my mind to suit my preferences. Or, I had accepted a god that suited someone elses preferencs. Or, that I had rejected the true nature of God because it made me uncomfortable. So, depending on how you define misconceptions, yes, it is possible. Just in speaking with Christians on this board, we come to see that some of us have very different concepts about God. We can't have differences in how we define the essential nature of God, and all be right. Someone is wrong, someone is right. I recall our discussion on The Shack, where I felt the author was doing more than using a metaphorical approach, and was using fiction to paint a very false concept of the God of the bible. You took his work to be much more figurative, and wern't concerned with his concepts. One of us is wrong, the other right.

[Canuckster1127]

One of us is wrong, the other right.

There's many other options there as well JLay. We both could be wrong. We both could be right to varying degrees on specific issues within each of the concepts. Often we create false dilemmas by assuming polaring positions on non-cardinal issues are the only options possible. That's a logical fallacy and often a result of us brining a particular thought framework to scripture, that doesn't necessarily reside itself within scripture and then trying to make it fit.

But, my only point was just to pick up on that quality in your statement and as you recognize there was some overstatement there and own it, that's all that needs to be said.

[jlay]

Thanks.

[Kurieuo]

Kurieuo, Muslims do not believe the Christ will be the judge on Judgment Day. The Christ has no "sovereign right."

Yeah, I know, but I did not intend my response for the Muslim. Yet, if they cross the lines to attack Christian theology, then it is Christian theology they must fairly accept as a defense.

...

Muslims are extremely hard to reach. I can try, but the work in reaching Muslims has to come from the work of the Holy Spirit.

I'd agree. I am yet to see one conversion as a direct and immediate link to debating.

While important, I sincerely doubt logical arguments/debating is the way, or at least on its own the way to reach a Muslim (or many non-Christians for that matter). I'd really be sincerely interested to hear if you have witnessed otherwise?

As it stands, I believe there is a lot more involved in getting others to see the truth of Christ and the Gospel than mere logical arguments can provide. Working of the Holy Spirit in a person's life as you say, is certainly required to bring about a correct disposition.

I don't know if I have ever reached any Muslim in a debate. I know of one Christian who says he turned around 5 Muslims.

I know of a couple of Muslims who turned themselves around and became Christians. We hear of Muslims coming to Christ through dreams and visions -- the accounts are on the Internet.

The only thing debating a Muslim can do is put doubts in their minds, perhaps leading them to more research and actually reading the Bible.

The biggest obstacle is the "corruption" of the Bible excuse. "It is so corrupted it cannot be trusted, so we don't know what Jesus really said," they might say. I don't believe the Qur'an accuses Jews and Christians of changing the text of the Bible; I believe it does accuse Jews and Christians of misinterpretation. The problem with the Qur'an is that it does not say what was misinterpreted.

Remember when Jesus said: "you have heard before, but I say to you"?

You don't find that in the Qur'an regarding the Bible.

Other than that, my debates with Muslims has strengthened my faith; the debates force me to take another look at Scriptures and I have learned.

Lastly, I think Christians have to be prepared to debate Muslims because some Christians come in contact with them at work for instance. The first step is reading the Qur'an, the Hadiths, and a biography of Muhammad.

I think most Christians are not equipped to debate any Muslims -- some don't even know their own Bible! I worry about children going away to college and discussing religion with Muslims and having the Muslims put doubts into their minds about their Christian faith -- "the Bible is corrupt" -- "Muhammad is in the Bible" -- "Islam is the truth faith, superseding Judaism and Christianity" -- "Jesus was a Muslim" -- "Jesus didn't die on the cross" -- "Jesus never said, I am God, worship me" -- "the Trinity was the result of a vote at the Council of Nicea" -- and on and on and on.

Perhaps these kids come home with all of this and their parents can't help them.

I agree with much of what you say, and you wrote it quite effectively.

To add some of my own thoughts. Rather than using Christian apologetics to evangelise, I see that they often serve a greater purpose to help reinforce our faith. Without them,we have our heart, emotions, intutions, personal experiences, etc - all of which are very good, but can change throughout life. When our heart is properly disposed, we can see the truth a lot more easier, so there is no better time for apologetics then when someone is first saved.

Sadly many Christians have the feelings and what-not, without much understanding, reason and arguments. Children brought up without reason will likely have the most struggles with Muslims in schools and universities, as with Atheists, JWs, Mormons and what-have-you. I found I was most challenged myself at Theology college, and that should be one of the safest places. Go figure. It is therefore important to understand ones own faith, and strongly so, and have reasons for belief.

Furthermore, when one is secure in their own faith, they can also talk more civilly and personally about it without feeling threatened by others. Being able to talk to people on a more personal level without "the quivering lip" (so-to-speak) means they are more likely make a personal impact in the life of someone else who initially disagrees with them. And as Canuckster highlighted, the personal side is I think where we make to most impact with others. If people trust us on a personal level, and even a close relationship unfolds, then what we believe and say will have much greater impact.

One drawback to discussion boards like this is that things really can't reach a personal level. So people of diverging non-Christian beliefs, for example Atheists, just come on and spout their dribble and attack whatever twisted characture they have of us in their mind. I find Atheists in real life who I've developed a personal relationship with to not be so annoying and confident in their beliefs.

Anyway, just writing out my thoughts. I just pray, and I am sure, I will be able to help strengthen the faith of my children with reason. Islam will certainly be on the rise in Western society, especially by the time they hit school/highschool. So it is quite prudent to become familiar with what it is Muslims believe especially in relation to Christians.

Maybe, if the other mods don't mind, you can even invite a Mulsim you respect on that other board you post on (if there are any) to come and participate at this boards. As long as they are civil and respectful, I see such dialogue would be good. Certainly different from your common Atheist type which we get here.

[Christian2]

Kurieuo,

I got to know a couple of Muslim women a few years ago on a discussion -- we exchanged a little personal information and that seemed to do the trick. One was very educated, a professional with at least one degree. She refused to discuss religion with me because she thought it would hurt our relationship. But when I told her I was a Protestant, she wanted to know more about what that meant. She lived in Egypt and only knew about Copts. I explained a little and she started reading the NT, starting with the Gospel of John and thought it was "beautiful." She then read Matthew, Mark and Luke at one sitting and asked me what to read next. As far as I know she is still a Muslim, but at least she read the Gospels! I've found a lot of Muslims have not read the Gospels. They find out about "Christianity" by reading what Muslim polemics/apologists say about it.

The other woman was a former Roman Catholic.

I spent two months discussing Christianity with some atheists and finally gave up.

I intend to send you a PM.

[ManFromHeaven]

Trinitarians believe that Jesus is the Word of God incarnate.

There is an account in the Hebrew Scriptures of a man put to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath. The following is the account:

Numbers 15:3236

32. When the children of Israel were in the desert, they found a man gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
33. Those who found him gathering wood presented him before Moses and Aaron and before the entire congregation.
34. They put him under guard, since it was not specified what was to be done to him.
35. The Lord said to Moses, The man shall be put to death; the entire congregation shall pelt him with stones outside the camp.
36. So the entire congregation took him outside the camp, and they pelted him to death with stones, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Jesus said the following about working on the Sabbath:

But when the Pharisees asked why Jesus and His disciples did on the Sabbath "that which is unlawful," Jesus replied: "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:24)

However, if Jesus is the Word of God incarnate does that mean that Jesus ordered the death of the man in Numbers 15:32-36?

This question has come up because:

A Muslim made the statement that a Muslim who leaves Islam should be put to death for apostasy. I asked him to show me where Jesus ordered the death of anyone for apostasy. Although the man gathering firewood was not put to death for apostasy, this is how the Muslim answered me.

His comment was: "You believe that Jesus is God. So the law of Moses came from Jesus and therefore Jesus ordered the execution."

I can't seem to think this one through and would appreciate any thoughts from the Christians on G&S.

Thank you.

Being in the wilderness or the desert is a spiritual place where one is removed from the city of the faith in which they once did abide. The wood is from the trees that had previously produced fruit of spiritual teachings and guidance. Mosses and his people were in the wilderness seeking deliverance to a new land and city of faith. Because the man was collecting old wood from dead trees which may represent trees of Egyptian Gods, the God of Mosses and his people has ruled that the man be put out of their camp and stones that represent obstacles of faith in the fields where the seed of truth grows be cast upon him so that the spirit of his belief be put to death.
This allegorical/symbolized writing refers to spiritual death of belief. The man was rekindling the spiritual fire of his past beliefs. Mosses and his people were searching a new land of spiritual understanding and faith with their God in the promised land of Israel. God does not condone literal stoning or literal putting to death or killing of people.

[CeT-To]

Just a question. If a man who had faith yet broke one of the laws that demanded stoning if broken, would he still go to Abraham's bosom?