Believer Good Deeds, Unique ?

[Sudsy]

This topic was explored a bit last Sunday in our adult class regarding how an unbelievers good deeds differ from a believer's good deeds. I thought perhaps some might care to share their views regarding this.

The text in Matthew 5:13-16 and especially verse 16 - "In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

So, perhaps one thing to consider is what kind of good deeds are we involved in as believers ? Our culture tends to emphasize that everything is about me and mine rather than the needs of others. It is quite easy for some of us to be self-absorbed even in Christian ministries. And when we do good deeds, the flesh/ego is always ready to be honoured and glorified.

And another thought was that there are unbelievers that far outshine believers in doing good deeds. Some that are heavily involved in good deeds, say the feeling of doing good deeds gives them much peace and a sense of purpose regardless of whether or not they are recognized for it.

But what about this doing good deeds in such a way that causes people to glorify God rather than us ? Are we getting pats on the back for what we do in the community we live in or do people recognize God as being our source and so they honor Him and not us ?

What makes believer good deeds stand out to bring glory to God ?

For openers, it was agreed by some in our adult class that if we are not openly glorifying God in our conversations in our communities, then how will people recognize God as our source ?

Any thoughts, insights, experiences to share on this topic ?

[jlay]

The only "good" deeds are the ones that God has prepared for us to walk in. (Eph 2:10) Everything else is rearranging chairs on the Titanic. No matter how noble a thing might seem, if it is not born of God it simply isn't good. It may produce a favorable result, and God may work it together for good, but a deed in itself isn't good.

Our part of this equation is to have our minds transformed that we may discern the will of God (Rom 12:2) and know what He has called us to walk in, and then be obedient to take those steps. As far as having other people see, I would tend to think that if we are doing the above, the latter will come. The SOTM is a very Jewish sermon given to a people about what it will be like in the Kingdom age. So, I would be very careful about trying to manufacture good deeds, and trying to manufacture who gets the credit.

As far as personal experience. I've seen many deeds where God is glorified. And like I just described, the intent wasn't doing the good deed, but in yielding to the will of God, which effectually produces good works. The glorification that came was essentially spontaneous.

[Sudsy]

The SOTM is a very Jewish sermon given to a people about what it will be like in the Kingdom age.

So, are we not Kingdom people here and now, ambassadors of Christ ? Are you suggesting the SOTM does not apply to us today ?

As far as personal experience. I've seen many deeds where God is glorified.

So, perhaps you can share some of these many and how God was glorified ?

I found this explanation by John Piper worthwhile - http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper80/080380m.htm

[Kurieuo]

This topic was explored a bit last Sunday in our adult class regarding how an unbelievers good deeds differ from a believer's good deeds. I thought perhaps some might care to share their views regarding this.

The text in Matthew 5:13-16 and especially verse 16 - "In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

So, perhaps one thing to consider is what kind of good deeds are we involved in as believers ? Our culture tends to emphasize that everything is about me and mine rather than the needs of others. It is quite easy for some of us to be self-absorbed even in Christian ministries. And when we do good deeds, the flesh/ego is always ready to be honoured and glorified.

While I agree with the sentiments that we as followers of Christ ought to be a light to the world, in Matthew 5 the context set at the beginning of the chapter is Jesus talking to His disciples. No one else.

How do we be good ambassadors of Christ? Stand to Reason has a good practical course that they put together at: http://www.str.org/site/PageServer?page ... aining_abc

However, as followers of Christ, religion and beliefs inevitably get discussed whether in the work place, school, amongst friends, or what-have-you. Thus, they other should come to know what we believe about God and Christ.

So how to we be a light to others? We ought be live a righteous life to the God's glory, but that is very hard since we do still struggle with sin and will until the day we day. So far better in my opinion showing understanding, grace, acceptance, love and compassion to others than trying to be a self-righteous perfectionist.

The one advantage Christianity has over other religions is we're supposed to not be trapped by sin and live perfect lives. We are under God's grace thanks to Christ. So why trample that under foot? Extend the same compassion, love and understanding to others and know that Christ dealt with what we, and people of every other religion, are unable to deal with.

[jlay]

The SOTM is a brilliant teaching, but it does not directly apply to the gentile believer in the dispensation of grace.

It is very much a Kingdom sermon, given to a specific people about accomplishing a specific purpose. And that was to usher in the Kingdom of Heaven on earth and for Israel to receive the Messiah. The ruling of the Messiah on the throne of David would come by Israel repenting and obeying.

In v. 14 who is, "Ye?" It is Israel. Those ye(s), thee and thous may seem old fahsion to us, but they serve a very important role in rightly dividing the word.

For example in 5:19 it says, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Which commandments is Jesus referring to? Those that were given to Israel. and he goes on to amplify them in chapter 5. However, we know in the Gospel of grace that our keeping of the commandments is not what determines our salvation, or whether we keep it. In fact Paul goes to great lenghts to show us that we are not bound to the Law any longer. If we fail to rightly handle this teaching then it will lead to confusion and contradiction. This is why the apostle Paul was called to be our apostle, and why Christ Himself revealed to Paul the mystery. Otherwise, all we would need to do is follow these teachings in Matthew. This is exactly why Paul told Timothy, 2 Tim 2:15. But that was not the point of Matthew at all. The point of Matthew was to show the Jews the Messiah had come and that by repenting they could receive the Kingdom of Heaven here on Earth, and usher in the Kingdom program, which was prophesied.

[Sudsy]

Kurieuo posted -

While I agree with the sentiments that we as followers of Christ ought to be a light to the world, in Matthew 5 the context set at the beginning of the chapter is Jesus talking to His disciples. No one else.

jlay posted -

The SOTM is a brilliant teaching, but it does not directly apply to the gentile believer in the dispensation of grace.

Really ? I guess as an Anabaptist, I totally disagree. There is a great deal in this sermon that applies to us today as believers. It certainly isn't about living as a 'self-righteous perfectionist'. I really don't understand why you think it is not applicable to us today in many areas. The beatitudes themselves, to me, are a wonderful description of salvation.

O well, thats my first exposure to anyone who thought this text does not apply to us so I'm quite surprised. I guess my experience has been quite Anabaptist.

[Kurieuo]

Kurieuo posted -

While I agree with the sentiments that we as followers of Christ ought to be a light to the world, in Matthew 5 the context set at the beginning of the chapter is Jesus talking to His disciples. No one else.

jlay posted -

The SOTM is a brilliant teaching, but it does not directly apply to the gentile believer in the dispensation of grace.

Really ? I guess as an Anabaptist, I totally disagree. There is a great deal in this sermon that applies to us today as believers. It certainly isn't about living as a 'self-righteous perfectionist'. I really don't understand why you think it is not applicable to us today in many areas. The beatitudes themselves, to me, are a wonderful description of salvation.

O well, thats my first exposure to anyone who thought this text does not apply to us so I'm quite surprised. I guess my experience has been quite Anabaptist.

Sudsy, such passages should first be read in their correct context.

Often the "spirit" of what is being said still applies to us as Christians, yet we must be careful not to go down the slippery slope of believing absolutely every word spoken to the apostles also applies to us. That was not Christ's foremost intention when saying what He did. To go down that "slippery slope" leads to all sorted of theological contradictions within Christianity, many of which Atheists love misinterpret and use against us.

Thus, I gave a balanced position I thought:

"While I agree with the sentiments that we as followers of Christ ought to be a light to the world, in Matthew 5 the context set at the beginning of the chapter is Jesus talking to His disciples."

Unless you are arguing Jesus' whole words in Matthew 5 apply to us in exactly the same way they applied to his disciples, I am not sure why this would be so disagreeable?

[Sudsy]

When you said that Jesus was talking to 'to His disciples. No one else', I thought you were suggesting that none of this applies to us today as His disciples. I believe His disciples then and now are all Kingdom people so although I agree things should be read in context, I believe there is a message in most scripture for us today. In the SOTM one of the main messages was to serve the Lord from our hearts with the right motives and not be just outwardly appearing to be spiritual through our good deeds and religious activities.

If you are not Anabaptist, we likely do disagree on how far the application of the SOTM is for us today. We base much preaching on the read letter portions of scripture but I agree that context is also quite important. For instance, it is too bad the KJV translators would not have left 'Gehenna' to be just that instead of making it 'Hell' as Jesus was talking about the local destruction about to come upon Jerusalem which was announced by Malachi and John the Baptist and speaking of this in a way that the locals understood it.

With regard to this thread, I believe we are to be known for our good deeds that are the result of a changed heart. A changed heart that loves their neighbour as themselves as well as loving their enemies. We do battle our flesh as Kingdom ambassadors but there is a way of Godly living expressed here that some seem to dismiss under being 'free in Christ'. We are in the process of becoming more and more like Him, although at times, as in my case, the flesh gets in the way.

Anyway, sorry if I mis-interpreted your post. I hope this explains more of the way I view this and so, I am interested in how our good deeds, which I believe are separate and yet a part of evangelism, should be done to bring glory to God. I like what Piper says - 'God gets glory not from our heroic exertion but from our reliance upon His strength - when we serve as one who serves with the strength which God supplies'. I resist forms of legalism but believe when our hearts are right, serving God and others becomes a natural flow of right living and joyful obedience. I believe God empowered ministry will cause the world to respond one way or the other, otherwise we are quite easily tolerated. God wants us cold or hot but not lukewarm.

[jlay]

Well said by K.
All scripture is God breathed and is USEFUL for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

As he said, a proper exegesis of the scripture will help us to find exactly what it means to those it was directly spoken to, to us personally, and how it applies in our lives today.

If one studies the letters of Paul in regards to salvation and Christian living, and the teachings in of Christ in Matt. Mark and Luke, and then broadly attempts to apply all of it to your life, you are going to find apparent contradiction and frustration. In some areas you will find harmony, and we can most certainly know that those are universal to those who belong to God. The reason there are apparent contradictions is because there are distinct messages, and programs going on here. Jesus said things that were spoken to Israel only. Plans that were for Israel only, and He says as much. He also had things that were for His disciples only, and the context tells us as much.

Proper exegesis, I think, is one of most overlooked essentials to Chrsitian teaching and training today. Rightly dividing the word. And so we end up with a lot of people trying to claim something that isn't meant for them. I'll give you an example. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say, "Jer 29:11, that's my verse." It's a great verse, and it can teach us. It can teach us how God was dealing with a specific group (Israel), at a specific time. For Christians to simply clip this verse out of the context and say it applies to them is not rightly dividing the word of truth. Just like this can happen in the OT, it can also happen in the new.

[Sudsy]

Proper exegesis, I think, is one of most overlooked essentials to Chrsitian teaching and training today.

And we have various, differing methods all called 'proper exegesis'. I have yet to find one that is proof that it will reveal the truth on every matter. I think some of the scriptural support used within the scriptures themselves would not pass various methods today. For instance, the reference to Joel 2:28 would likely not be regarded by some as a proper reference to be used for the first tongues speaking in Acts. The pouring out of the Spirit was not being manifested as this text indicates it would. So, I think much individual, biblical worldviews still come into play in many interpretations of scripture. O well, that is another subject.

[jlay]

"Yet" being the operative word.