Christian apologetics insurance plan...

[RickD]

Derrick,

I mean just because I'm not a chrismatic, or have a bad case of touchy feelys, or experience crazy hallucinations and dreams, or have the kind of faith that jonestown and branch davidian cult members have, does NOT mean I'm not a true believer. Now I believe that I will be in heaven when I die based on Christ's work on the cross and that I'll be saved by His grace through faith. I'm really getting sick and tired of people trying to paint me as a lost person because I don't have a blind, emotional, cult like faith based on subjective experiences

None of that makes anyone a Christian. Romans 10:9-10 tells how to be a Christian. I don't think anyone is painting you as lost(unsaved). You just seem to be putting a burden on yourself that you don't need. Trust in God's Word. Read the Bible daily and consistently and ask the Lord to speak to you through what you read. Philippians 1:6 says it is God Who started the work in you. Have faith He will finish it. God doesn't lie. He'll do it. Stay in the Word and pray. Your faith will grow. Trust Him.

[derrick09]

Well, another thing I want to point out is, I don't really understand why a few of you want to put apologetics under the bus and have subjective feelings carry the day as far as genuine Christian faith goes. I not only think apologetics is highly useful and essential to a real and true faith in Christ, I think the Bible teaches specifically for us to have a reasonable and logical faith based on evidence, logic, reasoning and even science. In fact, if it's ok, I want to share with you all another apologetics site, that is run by a good friend of mine. I don't think he's ever been here but he does know about the place. He's actually a Mod on another Christian apologetics site, he works in the chatroom there. But as a side project, he is working on a website of his own called "Treesearch apologetics". At the link I"m about to post, it takes you to a area of the site where he gives the case from scripture that a faith that is based on logic, reason, evidence and so on is biblical. So anyway, here is the link

http://www.treesearch.org/bible-logic.h ... rts-reason

I'd love to ones here who say biblical faith is not logical, reasonable, and evidential to try and debunk his case. Let me know if you can.

[Mariolee]

Derrick,

This doesn't have much to do with one's personal relationship with Christ or the status with that relationship, it mostly has to do with, do we have a good reason for the hope that is within us? If we do and continue to have one that's great and that's what I'm looking for but if we don't I don't see us being much of a help as far as converting people in western nations to the faith, the only hope we will have is reaching people in less developed nations who don't know about all of the latest science, logic and rationality.

We have to remember that when we are a witness for Christ, whether in the western nations or the less developed nations, we should be led by the Holy Spirit. Is "converting" people really what we as Christians should be trying to do? We are to be a witness to God through Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit inside us. We are a witness by the way we live, as well as preaching the word as we are led by God. It's not our job to "convert" anyone. Only the power of God can change anyone's heart. Intellectual arguments may plant a seed, or get people to think. But, ultimately, only God can change anyone.

Well yeah, but being intelligent sure as heck helps. God has given us intelligence, mind, and evidence has He not? And if we trust in the Holy Spirit to fill us and intervene through us, then what's the problem? I think what Derrick is trying to get at is that he wants to be an intelligent Christian. I know I'm pretty sick and tired of Christians believing in a fairy tale, and then when they are asked about why an Atheist should even consider believing in such a ridiculous deity, the Christian replies that he hopes God will change his heart.

You know what the Atheist does? He chuckles quietly to himself, and then walks away, thinking that you have only further confirmed his belief that Christians are crazy people that made up a supernatural god to feel better about themselves. At least, that's how I see it. Then again, I'm still really new to this apologetics stuff, so you're probably going to rightfully show me why I'm wrong. :p

Mariolee, Many people are going to think we are crazy just because of what we believe because: 1 Corinthians 1:18-21. Should we really care that people think we're crazy? It's the message of the Cross, and the Word of God that has the power to transform lives, not intellectual arguments. That's all I'm saying. Of course there's a place for intellectual apologetics, but we can't lose sight of where the real power to transform is. What if instead of worrying about how to win a debate with an athiest, we preach Christ crucified by the power of the Holy Spirit, and let God take care of the rest?

That's not what I'm saying. At least, it's not my point. From my perspective, it seems like you think I'm very self conscious about how people view me because I'm vain, No, I care about what people think about me, because I want them to hear the Word of Christ with an open heart.
With a person that keeps on saying, "I believe in Jesus because the Bible tells me so, and that is good enough for me," the Atheist will call shenanigans because the person is using incorrect circular reasoning, and probably not listen to you anymore. I'm not saying simply believing in the Bible and that being good enough for you is bad, heck no.
What I'm saying is the Atheist will be more open to someone who is open to putting forth more intelligent conversations that include evidence that they can see and understand how something like that could work. I want these guys to go to heaven, and I don't want to live my life seeing missed opportunities of having intelligent conversations, where I simply said "I believe in God," and provided no backup for it.

[jlay]

I take it that you are a dedicated presuppositionalist, I just hope that in your presentation thing, you are not going go up there and paint me as a "John Q. LOST PERSON" or as a "goat or tare" that the scriptures use to describe a professing believer who doesn't really know Christ. I mean just because I'm not a chrismatic, or have a bad case of touchy feelys, or experience crazy hallucinations and dreams, or have the kind of faith that jonestown and branch davidian cult members have, does NOT mean I'm not a true believer. Now I believe that I will be in heaven when I die based on Christ's work on the cross and that I'll be saved by His grace through faith. I'm really getting sick and tired of people trying to paint me as a lost person because I don't have a blind, emotional, cult like faith based on subjective experiences. No I may not have that, but I have a faith that is based on logic, reasoning, and GOOD DOCTRINE.

the talk we had last night related to evidentialism vs. preseuppositionalism. And I used it in relation to that discussion. Yes, I am a presuppositionalist. Extreme? No. If forced to define, I am a transcendantal presuppositionalist.

In your response you are making a common fallacy of either, or. You are insinuating you either have to be one or the other. Extreme charasmatic, or logical. Either a faith based on logic, reason and good docrtine, or one based on emotionalism, and subjective experiences. Faith is most certainly experiential, but that doesn't mean one cast reason to the wind. I would contend that the Bible is the basis of logic, and without it you couldn't have it.
I don't know if you are unsaved or not. However, based on your OP, I would say you are very confused, and that you are painting that picture. I mean it seems to me that you are saying, "I'm a Christian as long as..........." I don't say that to be mean, but out of sincere concern. And I would guess there are several here who would concur, but might not say it so directly.
FWIW, I do not advocate touchy feely faith either. I have a long track record on this here at G&S, and I've made my position clear on this many times in the past.

Well, another thing I want to point out is, I don't really understand why a few of you want to put apologetics under the bus and have subjective feelings carry the day as far as genuine Christian faith goes. I not only think apologetics is highly useful and essential to a real and true faith in Christ, I think the Bible teaches specifically for us to have a reasonable and logical faith based on evidence, logic, reasoning and even science.

Again, I think you misread the criticism. This isn't an anti-apologetics critique. It is a methodolgy of apologetics critique. In fact, the last sentence, I agree with 100%.

I'd love to ones here who say biblical faith is not logical, reasonable, and evidential to try and debunk his case. Let me know if you can.

I can only speak for myself, but I would never say this. But I would say this. It is all dependent on worldview. Biblcal faith is logical, reasonable, and evidential, but to who? To those who believe. This is why you can never convert someone by evidence stacking or probabilities.
1 Cor 1:18-21
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. \

"I believe in Jesus because the Bible tells me so, and that is good enough for me," the Atheist will call shenanigans because the person is using incorrect circular reasoning,

How is that incorrect circular reasoning? I agree it is circular, but how is it incorrect? The person is standing on the ultimate standard of truth. The Bible does tell you to believe in Jesus. And the Bible is good enough. Everyone uses circular reasoning when it comes to their ultimate standard. Everyone! Especially the Atheist. They deny the existance of God, and conclude that the Bible is false. That is circular. The apologist is foolish not to start and stand on the ultimate standard.

What I'm saying is the Atheist will be more open to someone who is open to putting forth more intelligent conversations that include evidence that they can see and understand how something like that could work.

But you see, that is an arbitrary statement. You really have not way of proving that. In fact, I'd say if you surveyed all believers, that they would not agree that non-biblical, secular evidence convinced them to come to Christ.

[RickD]

Mariolee, I was going to answer your last post, but jlay posted my thoughts first. I agree with what he said, and especially the last part. That's what I was trying to say to you:

Mariolee wrote:What I'm saying is the Atheist will be more open to someone who is open to putting forth more intelligent conversations that include evidence that they can see and understand how something like that could work.


But you see, that is an arbitrary statement. You really have not way of proving that. In fact, I'd say if you surveyed all believers, that they would not agree that non-biblical, secular evidence convinced them to come to Christ.

I came to Christ when I was a kid. I saw how God changed my Mom. The Holy Spirit transformed her. I'm not sure that convincing someone only intellectually that the God of the bible exists, is enough for someone to be saved. It has to be more than just knowing that God exists to be saved.James 2:19

[Echoside]

I'd love to ones here who say biblical faith is not logical, reasonable, and evidential to try and debunk his case. Let me know if you can.

I can only speak for myself, but I would never say this. But I would say this. It is all dependent on worldview. Biblcal faith is logical, reasonable, and evidential, but to who? To those who believe. This is why you can never convert someone by evidence stacking or probabilities.

I just wanted to say real quick that it seems to me this is where the atheist fails when trying to understand the universe. Proving God is not a matter of 2+2=4, or some experiment repeated a thousand times over. When an atheist limits God to these types of data and does not care to see the evidence out there that is not reducable to an equation on a chalkboard, honest seeking stops immediately. So a christian cannot "prove" god? That does not make the atheist any more justified come judgment day.

[MarcusOfLycia]

I didn't read through everyone's posts in their entirety, so I apologize if I'm repeating anyone.

I understand how it is to feel the way that the OP feels. In seasons of doubt (I am just coming out of a fairly severe one), I have felt like hope was lost by the fact that seemingly small things would damage my beliefs in significant ways. Unfortunately for myself, I never took a step back and approached it from an unbiased side. I realize now that I was forcing myself into a burden of proof beyond my capability of every answering.

As I glanced over one of the responses here, I saw the idea that you can be more than just extremely logical or extremely experiential in your beliefs. That was a lesson I learned that has helped strengthen my faith. Basically, it means that I now admit that regardless of any bias I have, God's existence is more like than not. This alone doesn't make Him a Christian God, but it was always the hardest question I had and needed answered. However, experience can come in here when we say that the only way you could know a transcendent all-powerful being would be through Revelation (well, personally anyway). It is my relationship, although weak on my end right now, that adds a level of proof to my beliefs that might not be scientifically 'provable' but is real nonetheless. It has led me to frustration with atheists who claim no God, but have no additional evidence (as I do in a relationship) to make such a transcendent claim.

There will always be doubts this side of heaven, I (heh) have no doubt. As we grow, however, we can start to handle these doubts instead of letting them control us. That doesn't mean to stop questioning things or to throw out reason. It merely means we think with a level-head and maturely about things in their proper context.

Remember too that for a religion that is thousands of years old, Christianity is still on the forefront. It still lines up with science. It still provides healing to the sick and wisdom to fools. It has transcended cultures, outlived civilizations, and held its own against myriad counter belief systems. And yet, even today, many in the scientific community, arguably the forefront of human knowledge, become Christians -because- of the evidence, not in spite of it. I find it remarkable that people don't see this as incredible evidence for Christianity's truth. If religion was a fake mental construct to prevent despair or to provide order, it seems unlikely that a religion could be such a skilled combatant in the arena of ideas for so many millenia. But then, it need not be an artificial construct unless one places their (anti-Christian) worldview above all else.

[derrick09]

I mean it seems to me that you are saying, "I'm a Christian as long as..........."

No not necessarily, I'm just trying to prepare for the worst and see what would be the best plan to put in action just in case if anything like that were to happen. Because as I mentioned earlier, God's existence and Christianity are being attacked by the secular intellectual elite with such a force that hasn't been witnessed until now, and I assume that in the next few years that force rate will continue to skyrocket and I'm just nervous that it will get to the point that Christian apologetics in the traditional sense will dissolve and fade away and Christians will be at a crossroads, of either turning their backs on science, archeology, reason and logic and embracing a emotional, subjective, blind or cult like faith or renouncing their faith all together and join the secular group.

And once that happens people like all or most of you here along with myself will really be torn both ways. Since on one end, all of us live our lives and make most of our decisions based on logic and reasoning, not to mention we are and have been surrounded by the accomplishments and comforts of modern science. On the other end, we have our Christian faith, which is the basis that all our hopes and dreams (i.e. the afterlife), our social/moral system, and the thing that our live bases it's purpose and meaning on is based, which is something that would be every bit as bad, if not worse, to give up than giving up the former. Now I was trying to formulate a third option as a way to keep Christian apologetics alive in such a scenario but I take it that many of you all would go with option one, that being the total rejection of science, logic and reason. Now if I was forced with those two options, either rejecting science and reason or rejecting my faith, I would go with rejecting science and reason, but I assume it way easier said than done, even for those of you who think you could accomplish such a task when all of society, many of your friends and family, and even your own BRAIN tries to get you to rethink the situation.

You see that's what I'm worried about the most with me in this situation is my own brain, my own intellect giving me a hard time in a situation such as this. In this fanatical (but somewhat likely) scenario how does one divorce their intellect? I mean, what would I do, hit myself in the head with a hammer repeatedly or fall backwards off a flight of stairs to where I injure my head enough that I no longer can be tortured by my intellect and intellectual doubts? I mean, if such a crossroads scenario were to happen, would we as Christians declare that the intellect is a curse or punishment of sin by God? For me personally, I hope we will never be at such a crossroads point, but with the way that many news headlines are reading, that's not completely out of the question.

[MarcusOfLycia]

\For me personally, I hope we will never be at such a crossroads point, but with the way that many news headlines are reading, that's not completely out of the question.

I don't think "the headlines" are leading to that type of conclusion at all, although I suppose by headlines I mean recent discoveries as a whole. Although, actual "headlines" typically are written to gain readership, not to spread truth. I think when we examine science as a whole, it definitely presents God's existence as more likely than when we examine popular ideas.

[Seraph]

Reading through all the posts made, I have to say I certainly relate to derrick and Mariolee. Faith and learning from the Word of God are extremely important, but I feel that they should also be reconciled with logic and reason because it gives reassurance to both me and non-Christians that I'm not being suckered into a belief system that goes against a good deal of observable evidence. I think blind faith that exists in complete evidence of the contrary is rather dangerous because then you may very well believe whatever any corrupt pastor tells you, even if it's contrary to what is found in the Bible. I think God wants to trust Him, but also to be intellectually honest with ourselves. That's why He gave us a mind that thrives on knowledge.

I hate to say it, but if it ever (hypothetically) got to a point where the evidence makes it look as though Christianity has no way of being true and that our percieved experiences with God were illusions (which I don't aticipate happening), I don't think I would be able to go against reason. In response to the opening question, if the unthinkable ever happened, I might have to go with "Become a Deist".

[B. W.]

Reading through all the posts made, I have to say I certainly relate to derrick and Mariolee. Faith and learning from the Word of God are extremely important, but I feel that they should also be reconciled with logic and reason because it gives reassurance to both me and non-Christians that I'm not being suckered into a belief system that goes against a good deal of observable evidence. I think blind faith that exists in complete evidence of the contrary is rather dangerous because then you may very well believe whatever any corrupt pastor tells you, even if it's contrary to what is found in the Bible. I think God wants to trust Him, but also to be intellectually honest with ourselves. That's why He gave us a mind that thrives on knowledge.

I hate to say it, but if it ever (hypothetically) got to a point where the evidence makes it look as though Christianity has no way of being true and that our percieved experiences with God were illusions (which I don't aticipate happening), I don't think I would be able to go against reason. In response to the opening question, if the unthinkable ever happened, I might have to go with "Become a Deist".

I find Romans 1:20-21 hard to beat...

Romans 1:20, 21, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened." NKJV
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[derrick09]

Not to mention, your NDE doesn't hurt your case either. That was quite an experience BW, I certainly enjoyed hearing about it.

[jlay]

Faith and learning from the Word of God are extremely important, but I feel that they should also be reconciled with logic and reason because it gives reassurance to both me and non-Christians that I'm not being suckered into a belief system that goes against a good deal of observable evidence.

Whose logic and reason? Man's? Good luck with that.

So you want a faith that the world won't make fun of you for having? That's not biblical.
Just what observable evidence conflicts with faith? All evidence is nuetral. Evidence doens't speak for itself. It has to be interpreted. So, what lens are you going to view this evidence through? Based on your post, it sounds like the worlds. Sounds like when the rubber hits the road, you are going to place your faith in the world. That my friend is not wise. I wouldn't worry so much of your future faith position. I'd worry about your current faith position. Because it doesn't sound like a biblical one, based on your own words.

There is no logic or reason apart from the Word of God. None.

I don't think I would be able to go against reason.

This statement is self-defeating. There is no reason apart from the truth of God.

I think God wants to trust Him, but also to be intellectually honest with ourselves. That's why He gave us a mind that thrives on knowledge.

And what is knowledge? Proverbs 1:7
What is its source? Col 2:3
You do need to start being intellectually honest with yourself. He gave you a mind all right. What a terrible thing to even hint at using reason and logic to deny the one who created the very thing.

[Canuckster1127]

God's existence and Christianity have been attacked for 2000 years and in times and places, far more than what we experience and see in North America. The ironic thing is when that happens, Christianity and appreciation for God's existence thrive rather than diminish. The greater threat is comfort, prosperity it seems. Christ's body is growing more today in Asia, Africa and South America than the so-called technologically advanced nations.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to examine things intellectually and using reason. In fact, it's necessary to any degree because we don't understand or apply scriptural truth without applying those filters in terms of our own grasp of how to see and know God. The danger is focusing exclusively on those types of things to where you reduce the world to only that which can be seen and experienced through our physical senses. Do that, and the foundation is laid for materialism and a world view that excludes anything that can't exist with us in the center of our existence.

[derrick09]

God's existence and Christianity have been attacked for 2000 years and in times and places, far more than what we experience and see in North America. The ironic thing is when that happens, Christianity and appreciation for God's existence thrive rather than diminish. The greater threat is comfort, prosperity it seems. Christ's body is growing more today in Asia, Africa and South America than the so-called technologically advanced nations.

It's interesting that you mentioned that, because I've mentioned such a thing in either this thread or another thread just like it, that's one of the main reasons why I have been and am becoming more passionate about supporting missionary groups taking the gospel to nations such as these, because those nowadays those are the only kind of people who are even open to the gospel both emotionally and intellectually. I just hope that Richard Dawkins and the nutcases at infidels dot org and others like them don't decide to translate their books and websites into those respective languages. Because as far as people in English speaking nations, unless if God decides to work a big time major miracle in the hearts, minds, and lives of people I foresee a growing majority of agnostics and atheists in the next few decades to come.

The reason being not so much that we can't respond to their arguments or give them an effective case to change their minds, it's that their hearts or emotions are so dedicated to anti Christian agendas (like abortion, relativism, post modernism, homosexuality and on and on). On top of that, many of them, who just like me, are sick and tired of the hypocrisy and immoral behavior of many so called Christian believers whether it be local church members and pastors to the biggest names and pastors in Christianity today.

One of the reasons why I consider myself lucky is that, unlike a lot of today's atheists and agnostics, instead of looking at all the Christian hypocrisy and throwing the baby out with the bathwater (ie denouncing Christianity all together) I started studying apologetics and even though the road hasn't been as smooth as I would have wanted, I have been able to resolve most of my doubts and because of all the science, history, and philosophical evidences in our favor, I not only have held onto my faith, but have grown and deepened my faith considerably despite the hypocrisy of Christians that I see all the time. But sadly, I'm more of the exception instead of the rule, because again, it appears to me that many people (within my age group 16-30) who consider themselves atheist, agnostic or undecided have so many intellectual, emotional, and willful walls or barriers between themselves and Christ, that for them to even listen and be open to accepting Christ, God will have to do at least one big miracle, if not two or three miracles right in the row to get these people to listen.

Because there is nothing that we can do or even big names like William Lane Craig, Hugh Ross, and Gary Habermass can do to change many of today's young skeptics (or cynics should be the more correct term) to describe these people. I not saying all hope is lost for these people, but I think it will take some major work from God to get His message across, because I think these people are the hardest people to reach for Christ ever in human history.