Prayer Request...

[jlay]

Bart,
I certainly appreciate what you are trying to say. But, I'm not going to defend a position that you appear to be forcing on me. The focus of this thread is Seraph's request for prayer. Which seems to me like a sincere request to seek help as to his personal walk with the Lord. I think you make some valid suggestions, but I don't agree them all. I chose not to make this thread a place to criticise your advise. The reason why, is that I have been highly criticized by you and others for doing that type of thing in the past.

If you want to start a thread about how Jesus dealt with people, I'd love it. FWIW, I can give plenty of examples where Jesus responded differnently than perhaps you are implying. Or at least not in contrast to my comments towards Seraph. In fact the unique quality of Christ as pointed out in Ravi Zacharius' book, Jesus Among Other Gods, is how differently Jesus reacted than what we would expect. Nicodemus, (who became a follower) the Rich Ruler, (which came to Jesus asking how he could inherit the Kingdom), the woman at the well, His response to Peter, referring to him as Satan. Jesus presented hard teachings. And please don't jump to conclusions that I am discounting the woman caught in sin, the theif on the cross. I am not. Some of Jesus' teachings were so hard that people who were considered followers walked away. John 6. The nature of truth is that it does expose. And that doesn't even include all the epistles in which Paul deals with the church.
-I am in the process of reading two books. Francis Chan's "Crazy Love," and Platts, "Radical." Both speak and example this very thing. As believers, when we have incorrect thinking about God, in love He exposes our error. Shoot, this just happened to me this morning in my devotion reading. The difference in those people above is that the one's Jesus comforted were fully exposed. There was no disquise, no strongholds to break down. So, Seraph needs to ask himself, which am I? Is everything open, or is my anger and my distance a result of a stronghold. Perhaps a misconception about God. I can remember a time in my own life where I was angry with God. I then went through a process of exposure. I had some very wrong ideas about myself, prayer, and about God. So, when someone says they become angered when others speak of the goodness of God, that says something to me. The really awesome thing about our Lord is that all the grace we need is already there. All the grace for our salvation. All the grace for Seraph's issue. God wants us to live in that grace, and He will do whatever is necessary to expose us to it.

[zoegirl]

when someone says they become angered when others speak of the goodness of God, that says something to m

And I would say it is far from this simple...I doubt that this is just a matter of you are either guilty of treason and anger or you are angelic and perfect and full of grace. There have been times in my life when I have been angry and would part of this anger be focused on God? Sure...but weirdly enough I was also holding on to the foundation that He is good. It is a bit of a maelstrom, isn't it? the combination of emotions and rational understanding.

For example, can't one be hungry, experience that hunger and yet know that it isn't yet time to eat? Does that realization mean that we suddenly stop being hungry? no...it does, however, out oneself in the right frame of mind. I have been lonely far too long (in my estimation ) and yet I know He is good. But that doesn't mean I stop being lonely?...that is perfectly human desire, to be with someone and knowing He is good doesn't mean I stop feeling that desire , it simply provides the comfort needed. And it is a bit reminiscent of Job's friends to proclaim that there should be guilt or sin in that feeling.

There are plenty of examples of this in scripture...Psalms, for instance, when the Psalmist cries out in his emotions, his fear, his anger, his feet slipping, his wondering about where God is. If we learn anything from the Psalms it's that God wants all of us, even within our weaknesses. He doesn't need us to cure ourselves before coming to Him. He is the great Comforter, Healer, and Restorer.

[jlay]

I doubt that this is just a matter of you are either guilty of treason and anger or you are angelic and perfect and full of grace.

I agree, and I really hope that you are not saying that those are the options I am presenting. I am most certainly not. I am treating Seraph as a believer in Christ. A child of grace.

If we learn anything from the Psalms it's that God wants all of us, even within our weaknesses. He doesn't need us to cure ourselves before coming to Him. He is the great Comforter, Healer, and Restorer.

Well said. I don't disagree. And I don't think what I have said conflicts with this. And although God wants us to not try and fix ourselves, he does want us to recognize and embrace our need of fixing. God loves us too much to let us stay like we are. The Lord disciplines those he LOVES.

[zoegirl]

It certianly seemed like being angry was in direct opposition to being full of grace, your quote...either they are angry or acknowledging that God is good. But clarification is always good Misunderstandings can be very dangerous...

[jlay]

But clarification is always good

Well we certainly agree there. I took "extremely angry" to mean, "extremely angry." Perhaps it wasn't clear.
I simply stated, when someone says that other people speaking on the goodness of God evokes feelings of anger, it says something to me. Maybe we have much different reactions to when a believer is "extremely angry" in response to other believers testifying about the goodness of God. Obviously, we do, although earlier in the thread you did mention that you agreed with everything everyone had said to that point.

And don't misunderstand, I don't want to undermine Seraph's willingness to openly share his doubts and concerns openly. But I would not be honest if I didn't say those comments sent up a red flag too me. It alerts me to perhaps a core issue as to why this person is experiencing these things. Now, maybe I am off base in my reading of this. And as I have already stated, I apologize if my findings are off base. He is welcome to clarify in that regard. Here is where Seraph took exception with my comments.

jlay, you seem to suggest that I intentionally blame and criticize God for my Dad's accident, and that I've abandoned God because of it......but I get somewhat irritated when it's implied that I'm the one at fault for feeling the way I do

Now, I do not disagree with everything he says here. Based on his OP, I did suspect that there was some blaming of God. Although I disagree that I am blaming him for his feelings. I would clarify that although we can't specifically control our feelings, we can control to how we respond to them. And we are certainly responsible to deal with the issues that are eliciting said feelings. And, no, I am not saying we have to fix our problems before we go to God. In addition, I do not feel he has abandoned God. His willingness to ask for prayer and advice was evidence enough of this.
So to this point, I fail to see how my perspective is invalid, much less unbiblical, as is most assuredly being hinted at by some. I certainly hope this is clarified. And I certainly don't want to see my thoughts on the matter distorted, or misinterpreted. I certainly think all of our focus should be on praying for Him, and desiring to see God's best for him.

And on that note, one of my favorite prayers is Paul's prayer for the believers in Ephesians. Amended.
Eph 3:14-21
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, Seraph, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your heart by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

[Canuckster1127]

Bart,
I certainly appreciate what you are trying to say. But, I'm not going to defend a position that you appear to be forcing on me. The focus of this thread is Seraph's request for prayer. Which seems to me like a sincere request to seek help as to his personal walk with the Lord. I think you make some valid suggestions, but I don't agree them all. I chose not to make this thread a place to criticise your advise. The reason why, is that I have been highly criticized by you and others for doing that type of thing in the past.

If you want to start a thread about how Jesus dealt with people, I'd love it. FWIW, I can give plenty of examples where Jesus responded differnently than perhaps you are implying. Or at least not in contrast to my comments towards Seraph. In fact the unique quality of Christ as pointed out in Ravi Zacharius' book, Jesus Among Other Gods, is how differently Jesus reacted than what we would expect. Nicodemus, (who became a follower) the Rich Ruler, (which came to Jesus asking how he could inherit the Kingdom), the woman at the well, His response to Peter, referring to him as Satan. Jesus presented hard teachings. And please don't jump to conclusions that I am discounting the woman caught in sin, the theif on the cross. I am not. Some of Jesus' teachings were so hard that people who were considered followers walked away. John 6. The nature of truth is that it does expose. And that doesn't even include all the epistles in which Paul deals with the church.
-I am in the process of reading two books. Francis Chan's "Crazy Love," and Platts, "Radical." Both speak and example this very thing. As believers, when we have incorrect thinking about God, in love He exposes our error. Shoot, this just happened to me this morning in my devotion reading. The difference in those people above is that the one's Jesus comforted were fully exposed. There was no disquise, no strongholds to break down. So, Seraph needs to ask himself, which am I? Is everything open, or is my anger and my distance a result of a stronghold. Perhaps a misconception about God. I can remember a time in my own life where I was angry with God. I then went through a process of exposure. I had some very wrong ideas about myself, prayer, and about God. So, when someone says they become angered when others speak of the goodness of God, that says something to me. The really awesome thing about our Lord is that all the grace we need is already there. All the grace for our salvation. All the grace for Seraph's issue. God wants us to live in that grace, and He will do whatever is necessary to expose us to it.

I certainly agree with you that how we view God and the goodness of God makes a huge difference as to how we respond to God.

Beyond that, as you've stated you disagree with some of my suggestions, which are rooted I believe in Biblical Truth, training in Pastoral Counselling and personal experience both as a counselor and counselee, you're welcome to start any thread you wish and we can explore it more. I've read Chan's works. They are hot or miss with me in some regards but he has a lot of good things to say. I haven't read Platts. Ravi Zacharias I've been acquainted with in the past personally as you may know he is C&MA and that is the denomination I worked with for several years. I worked with Ravi to bring him in for a conference for a C&MA district several years ago. He's as nice a person as he is brilliant, and that's saying a lot.

I stand by my statements to Seraph I again reassure him that feelings are neither right nor wrong. They simply are what they are. They certainly may give an indication about how a person in thinking and what they believe is the core truth about the nature of God and Christ. My experience is that there are people who are more oriented toward "truth" than they are love as well as others who are the reverse. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and God is Love so Jesus to me personifies both but the master element if you will in terms of how God reaches out out to us is Love and truth within the context of love. People who are hurting and looking for encouragement generally don't need to have the truth elements pushed upon them to the eclipsing of love. People are very rarely argued into a change of feelings. Feelings modify most in the context of relationship and particularly when someone has had a very difficult relationship with their earthly father, the path to healing is not someone telling them that their feelings are wrong or that they are wrong for feeling the way that they do. There's entire schools of counselling within Christianity that sadly operate from that exact premise. I can't tell you that sadness that that brings up in me when I think of some of the impact of those approaches in my own life as well and many people I've worked with in counselling who have been beaten over the head by no doubt well-meaning Christians but who in the process inflict more pain and suffering than they address. I can give you eye-witness examples of watching anorexics for example being pushed by nouthetic Christian counselors to accept the truth that God loves them and therefore they must love themselves by caring for themselves by eating properly. If you're interested in this issue I'd encourage you to do some research and see what the success rate of nouthetic counselling approaches are for anorexics over no treatment at all. There is no difference. That approach clinically does no good. Don't take my word for it though, look it up on your own if you wish.

If it were a matter of theoretical practice I wouldn't care so much. People's lives however are often in the balance and many wounded people are out in our society who have been deeply chastised by otherwise well-meaning Christians who value "truth" over effective counselling and helping within the context of the love of others and the love of God. It's a serious issue and one which I'm passionate about having trained as I mentioned both in pastoral counseling and several fields of psychology.

So that's where I am coming from. Truth is not it's own justification. Truth must be ministered in love and again, I believe Jesus models that ultimately and without apology I choose to read the epistles and the OT through the lens of the Gospels and Jesus Christ. I don't see Jesus beating hurting and penitent people looking for help over the head with "truth". I see Jesus in a very uncondemning and loving way both reaching out and many times actively protecting such people, especially from the religious establishment of His day which focused very highly upon truth to the extant that Jesus pretty much told them that they were no better than Satan and Demons who knew the truth as well. Truth outside of the context of love is not only often ineffective, it's often counter-effective and inflicts more wounds.

In terms of erring in one direction or the other, I'd prefer not to err, but in terms of my ministry and relating to people if I must err it will be without apology on the side of love.

I'm not in any way saying that your advice goes to that extreme or that there's no value in what you're saying, but since you feel free to voice your general disagreement of elements of what I've provided, I have to believe that you'll no doubt welcome my stating the same about yours. I wish many pastors with limited training in counselling who choose to interact with hurting people were left to sit as silent observers to see the aftermath of their handiwork in some people's lives and in counselling that takes place later when situations have worsened and people have gone deeper in emotional and psychological trauma. I think all but the most strident would pause and reconsider the difference in effectiveness between a surgeon's scalpal as opposed to a machete.

In the end, as you say, it all comes back to grace. Grace is what brings us to God and in the end it is also grace that maintains and sustains us.

[August]

Seraph, I just saw this. I will be holding you in my prayers. I can't imagine what you must feel like, but my thoughts, prayers and best wishes are with you. Keep the faith.

[jlay]

People who are hurting and looking for encouragement generally don't need to have the truth elements pushed upon them to the eclipsing of love

Are they mutually exclusive? That being truth and love. Two sides of the same coin.

Bart, Like I mentioned I don't want to make this thread a critique, but I will make a comment only to clarify. For good reasons I am very suspicious of 12 step groups, and many of the counseling methods that are employed both in the church and the secular world.
It may be a good thread topic some time. Obviously there are a lot of hurting people in church. Many I would say, who sit quietly smiling on the outside, as things brew inside. Wrote a song about that long time ago. Might even be a good section for the board.

[Canuckster1127]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. 12 step groups are very broad and the methods used can vary from group to group.

Again, however, statistically, the success rate in terms of altered behavior with 12 step groups in areas of substance abuse (and support of those harmed by it but not themselves using) is higher than nouthetic type counselling.

And no, truth and love are not mutually exclusive. I think I recognized that in stating truth to the "eclipsing of love." Both are necessary elements.

Think about the message of God however. If all God needed to send to us was "truth" He could have had the Bible delivered by angels from on high. Instead, for several reasons, but reasons which include this area, God came to us in the flesh as Jesus Christ Who demonstrated and ministered in Love. Love of the context in which truth is nested. It's not two sides of a coin. Love is ultimately how God describes Himself and the context by which every other attribute is understood.

Let's take this to another thread if you want to discuss it further. I agree the focus here should be Seraph and his request and I'm sorry for my part in distracting from that in any way.

[Gman]

Seraph... This is the first time I've read this.. Sorry. Wow. That hurts... I don't know what to say.

Hey guys. This is a prayer request for Seraph.. Let's not turn it into a theological debate about God.

And I think it is ok to be angry Seraph. I was too when I lost my parents, but now God is slowly healing me.. It takes time, but I know I will be united with them in the future.

Blessings and prayers to you Seraph..

[J.Davis]

Bart, I am curious…

How can one, unless they have insight from God, know the condition of another’s heart in order to determine the proper method of love to use?

Jesus talked to the Pharisees harshly for many reasons, he did it to keep His reputation where he wanted, he did it so others would not be deceived etc.

But he also loved them…

One must know and understand what a person is going through and what state their heart is in, what strongholds they are under etc..

Jesus knew these things…. he loves his creation (including the Pharisees at the time) and what he said to the Pharisees was out of the love in his heart. What he said was not said in an attempt to force the Pharisees to accept the truth. But it was said to start the process of change and provide an opportunity for them to open their heart to the true love of God, to free them from certain doom and destruction. His words produced what he would consider a healthy reaction for them.

Unless we know what state someone’s heart is in, we can not say that another is not showing proper love (giving the condition that they are a true Christian, lead by God and not breaking any biblical principals).

I believe everyone here (including yourself) did what they did because they love Jesus, his creation (all those reading) and because they sincerely want to help Seraph.

Was Jlay not showing Love? I supported Jlay….Do you feel that I am in error concerning showing proper Jesus approved love?

[Canuckster1127]

I'm sticking with my last statement to take this to another thread if desired.

[Gman]

Hey Seraph.. If you are still there. I thought I would share this song for you for the holidays. I don't know how to convey it in words, but I thought this song would be appropriate.. Hope all is well..

Blessings to you and your loss...

Some Children See Him

[Seraph]

Little update on this thread. Recently my doctor put me on Zoloft, which I agreed to partly thanks to Canuckster's advice, and I gotta say I've felt a whole lot better recently. I've had a much healthier outlook on things for the past couple weeks and feel less hostile towards God and other people. My post count on internet forums like this one has somewhat gone down since I feel less arguementative haha.

Thanks for the prayers everyone.

[zoegirl]

Thanks for the update seraph! Glad that you have been feeling better, that is definitely a praise!!

Keep updating us.