Is Christian zionism sound doctrine?

[Gman]

GMan, I am genuinely curious about this....

Have you studied the genealogy of the current residents of the country of Israel? The reason I ask is that I have an uncle who did that, and he had some interesting findings, which raised some further questions.

It is fascinating.. At least this is what I'm finding. What questions did you find?

Do you believe Israel to be the bloodline descendants of Abraham, i.e. descending only from the 12 tribes? What are the criteria otherwise...is Israel everyone who believes in orthodox Judaism?

I don't claim to have all the answers on this, but from what I've read, there appears to be a genetic Jewish tradition in DNA that can be traced back thousands of years (the book DNA and tradition by Rabbi Yaakov Kleiman), a good read, in revealing the "Cohen Gene." A number of Jewish men living in Israel had a special genetic test conducted proving that they were from the ancient Hebrew preisthood. Other ways are actually in their names, example if a Jewish person has a surname of Levi, Levee or Levin it would indicate they where from the tribe of Levi. If their surname is Cohen, Kahn, Kane, it has a connection with an ancient priest. Then there are Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardim Jews. Ashkenazi Jews represent most of the Jews in Israel, 80 percent. Sephardi Jews represent the Spanish Jews.

Anyways.. I became so fascinated with this stuff I actually had my DNA tested too just to see what it would reveal..

Also, what do you make of the ten tribes that were abducted, never to return? Where do you consider them to fit into the picture? Are they the ones that returned to the area when Israel was established as a country?

According the DNA testing, and these surnames and traditions, it appears the 12 tribes are slowly returning back to Israel. Again, the way I see it, OT scripture is being fulfilled in some way. I've outlined some of that here.

[Gman]

Understood dispensationalism fully yet, or understood Christ fully yet?

Perhaps..

Most Christians today (at least in the US) fall into some Dispensational Camp (many have never been introduced to anything else). However, a "consistent" dispensationalist hermeneutic would actually result in a rejection of Christ, since the OT prophecies would have to be fulfilled in a way that the OT audience would understand. Why exclude the Messianic Prophecies?

Yes but that still wouldn't be a refusal.. That sounds like a misunderstanding.

Even after Christ's resurrection, He had to correct the Apostles' zionism (Acts 1:6-8).

Hmm, he explained he they didn't know the times..

Jews are not excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant (most of the Apostles were Jews), but they are not included on the basis of being Jews. As a postmillennialist, I hold that we are still in a time where a partial hardening of the Jews (in general) is happening, but they will eventually be grafted back into the vine.

Or unbelieving Jews?

[B. W.]

Since becoming a Christian I have always found the following verses from Revelation fascinating:

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

Rev 7:5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;

Rev 7:6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;

Rev 7:7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;

Rev 7:8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands…

Two groups of people mentioned – one beinging Israel and low and behold all the twelve tribe’s mentioned!

Then verse 9 – the Gentiles – maybe Jew and Gentile made one in Christ is being represented here but what is obvious – the Church is not identified with the twelve tribes of Israel. So Gman, the DNA thing is interesting!

Also, does not the reader know that the bible prophesies that there would be two total dispersals of the entire OT Jewish people into nations and two regatherings back to the land by a remnant? Then comes time of dividing?

Two of the dispersals caused by what Moses stated in Deuteronomy 30:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6c and Deuteronomy 29:25, 26, 27, 28, 29c and Deuteronomy 28:37, 49, 50, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68c have occured and From these two a remnant returns back into the land....

How many times did this happen to all of the children of Israel, scattered into the nations and then regathered?
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[B. W.]

Here is an interesting non-biased Wikipedia Link on this subject and from it one can explore more on his or her own:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora

Link below provides a Timeline for one of the divided Kingdoms - Israel:

http://spiritofelijah.co.uk/Documents/ot3.pdf

http://www.biblestorytelling.org/devoti ... 9-3-08.pdf

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... doms1.html

The Conquest of Israel

In 722 BC, the Assyrians conquered Israel. The Assyrians were aggressive and effective; the history of their dominance over the Middle East is a history of constant warfare. In order to assure that conquered territories would remain pacified, the Assyrians would force many of the native inhabitants to relocate to other parts of their empire. They almost always chose the upper and more powerful classes, for they had no reason to fear the general mass of a population. They would then send Assyrians to relocate in the conquered territory.

When they conquered Israel, they forced the ten tribes to scatter throughout their empire. For all practical purposes, you might consider this a proto-Diaspora ("diaspora"="scattering"), except that these Israelites disappear from history permanently; they are called "the ten lost tribes of Israel." Why this happened is difficult to assess. The Assyrians did not settle the Israelites in one place, but scattered them in small populations all over the Middle East. When the Babylonians later conquered Judah, they, too, relocate a massive amount of the population. However, they move that population to a single location so that the Jews can set up a separate community and still retain their religion and identity. The Israelites deported by the Assyrians, however, do not live in separate communities and soon drop their Yahweh religion and their Hebrew names and identities.

The Samaritans

One other consequence of the Assyrian invasion of Israel involved the settling of Israel by Assyrians. This group settled in the capital of Israel, Samaria, and they took with them Assyrian gods and cultic practices. But the people of the Middle East were above everything else highly superstitious. Even the Hebrews didn't necessarily deny the existence or power of other peoples' gods—just in case. Conquering peoples constantly feared that the local gods would wreak vengeance on them. Therefore, they would adopt the local god or gods into their religion and cultic practices. Within a short time, the Assyrians in Samaria were worshipping Yahweh as well as their own gods; within a couple centuries, they would be worshipping Yahweh exclusively. Thus was formed the only major schism in the Yahweh religion: the schism between the Jews and the Samaritans. The Samaritans, who were Assyrian and therefore non-Hebrew, adopted almost all of the Hebrew Torah and cultic practices; unlike the Jews, however, they believed that they could sacrifice to God outside of the temple in Jerusalem. The Jews frowned on the Samaritans, denying that a non-Hebrew had any right to be included among the chosen people and angered that the Samaritans would dare to sacrifice to Yahweh outside of Jerusalem. The Samaritan schism played a major role in the rhetoric of Jesus of Nazareth; and there are still Samaritans alive today around the city of Samaria.

Notice that the northern Kingdom Israel was dispersed around 722 BC and that these Ten Tribes were considered Lost in 70 AD...

Judah, the southern Kingdom fell around 586 BC and the two falls and scatterings of the people represent the entire Jewish People all 12 tribes completely scattered into other nations as Deuteronomy 29:27-29 and Deuteronomy 30:1, 2, 3, 4, 5c speaks of happening if any fall into the sins declared against God. Because the Northern and Southern fell at different times does not make these two separate scatterings into other nations. Deuteronomy 29:25, 26, 27, 28, 29c and Deuteronomy 28:37, 49, 50, 62, 65, 66, 67c states – all of them would if they sinned against God and both nations did – not one group at the expense of the other but the total all 12 tribes would be scattered. It happened.

This first total scattering was completed by 586 BC and the First Regathering occurred as Jeremiah 25:8-11 said it would. This confuses people as both Kingdoms make up the entire population of all twelve tribes being scattered for the same crimes against God mentioned in Deuteronomy despite the difference in years it took to complete ONE TOTAL DIASPORA of all twelve tribes under God’s just hand (Just action towards Hezekiah).

Main Point

Now, according to some in the Replacement camp state that the Book of Revelations only speaks of the events of 68-70 AD.

Now if that was so, why are ten Lost tribes, who are allegedly supposed have not existed in 70 AD be mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8 as existing in 70 AD – when they would not actually be in 1- 70 AD Israel?

Of course, to get around this – spiritualize this – but does not the book of Revelation warn the readers not to do this?

The Revelation book is not limited in scope to refer only to the events of approx 66-70 AD but refers to the future when all Twelve Tribes are regathered back into the Land God promised them and called them too. Are God’s gifts, promises, and callings irrevocable or not? The lost tribes are not the church. In Rev 7:4-8 the Jewish tribes are all mentioned and in Rev 7:9 another group is mentioned. Two groups...

In fact, the bible records in the OT that the Lord promises to always regather a remnant of the Jewish people – in both regatherings back to the land promised. The last regathering sets the stage for the joining of both Jew and Gentile into one new man (Eph 2:11, 13, 15, 18, 19c). This will take a time of dividing, shaking, turmoil, until Zech 12:10 happens and a remnant of the Jewish people will enter the New Covenant with the Gentiles – the covenant of grace. The second regathering occurred 1920’s thru 1948. Deny it if one would like, but they are there, in the land again – and it appears members of all twelve tribes are currently in resident in Israel too. Shall a man standing midst of a deeply wooded forest deny all the trees he sees as belonging to the same forest?

In fact, the OT tells us that the gentile believers will be called by a new name. Israel is not a new name but belongs only to the entire Jewish People alone. The new name was prophesied in a unique place in the OT bible in a precise sequence of events for the gentiles, which is rare for such prophecy. This is often overlooked by replacement scholars and poo poo’d away. Romans 11:18-21 serves well to warn against replacement ideology.
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[puritan lad]

B.W.,

We don't "spiritualize" Revelation, but we do hold that the book is highly symbolic (and I think you would agree). Using these passage to favor zionism is a questionable practice, especially with the Jewish themes throughout the Book.

The common theme throughout Revelation is a contrast between the true Israel (the church) vs. the false Israel (the land beast,), true Jews (Christ's seed) vs. false Jews (the synanogue of Satan), the bride of Christ vs. the Great Harlot (see Isaiah 1:21), the Heavenly Jerusalem vs. that Great City, spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where our Lord was Crucified, the seed of the woman vs. the seed of the serpent, and many others. In light of this, assuming the tribes of Rev. 7 refer to "Israel after the flesh" is not only a huge assumption, but goes against the flow of the rest of the book.

After the elect of the twelve tribes are sealed in Revelation 7, John sees a "great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands…". Why do you assume two groups? John says nothing about seeing another group of people. They are one and the same, as the twelve tribes in Revelation refer to the universal church, in contrast to those who based their covenant status on DNA while rejecting Christ, "...those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (Revelation 2:9)

Besides, the article you posted says that the ten tribes "disappear from history permanently". Therefore, you cannot reference the to suggest that the 70AD interpretation fails, and then suggest that it "refers to the future when all Twelve Tribes are regathered back into the Land God promised them and called them too."

Jesus' curse on the fig tree was "May no fruit ever come from you again!". Israel, as a covenant nation. ceased to exist forever.

[B. W.]

PL, before I respond to your last post - need clarifications...

Question - are the quotes basically correct from Wikipedia on Pretreism?

I chose this Wikipedia link as it seems the most unbasised I could find...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism

Schools of Preterist ThoughtThe two principal schools of Preterist thought are commonly called Partial Preterism and Full Preterism. Preterists disagree significantly about the exact meaning of the terms used to denote these divisions of Preterist thought.

Some Partial Preterists prefer to call their position Orthodox Preterism, thus contrasting their agreement with the creeds of the Ecumenical Councils with what they perceive to be the Full Preterists' rejection of the same.[citation needed] This, in effect, makes Full Preterism unorthodox in the eyes of Partial Preterists and gives rise to the claim by some that Full Preterism is heretical. (Partial Preterism is also sometimes called Classical Preterism or Moderate Preterism.)

On the other hand, some Full Preterists prefer to call their position Consistent Preterism, reflecting their extension of Preterism to all biblical prophecy and thus claiming an inconsistency in the Partial Preterist hermeneutic.[27] Partial preterists may be considered heterodox because they advocate, in effect, two Second Comings, one at A.D. 70 and another at the end of the age. Full preterists, in contrast, conform to the creeds, allowing only one Second Coming.

Sub-variants of Preterism include one form of Partial Preterism which places fulfillment of some eschatological passages in the first three centuries of the current era, culminating in the fall of Rome. In addition, certain statements from classical theological liberalism are easily mistaken for Preterism, as they hold that the biblical record accurately reflects Jesus' and the Apostles' belief that all prophecy was to be fulfilled within their generation. Theological liberalism generally regards these apocalyptic expectations as being errant or mistaken, however, so this view cannot accurately be considered a form of Preterism.[28]

Partial Preterism Main article: Partial Preterism

Partial Preterism holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ were fulfilled in A.D. 70 when the Roman general (and future Emperor) Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. It identifies "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17-18) with the ancient pagan City of Rome, or even the city of Jerusalem.[29] Some adherents of Partial Preterism see the Emperor Diocletian as the fulfillment of the "little horn" prophecy of Daniel 7. But this is a minority view. The great majority of Partial Preterists believe that Jerusalem was a "great harlot" destroyed by God in AD 70.

Most Partial Preterists also believe that the term Last Days refers not to the last days of planet Earth, or the last days of humankind, but rather to the last days of the Mosaic Covenant, which God held exclusively with the nation of Israel (including biblical proselytes) until the year AD 70. (see also New Covenant and the parables of the barren fig tree and budding fig tree).[citation needed] For more information on this subject, see Abrogation of Old Covenant laws. The "Last Days", however, are to be distinguished from the "Last Day", which is considered to still be in the future and entailing the last coming of Jesus, the Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous dead physically from the grave in like manner to Jesus' physical resurrection, the Final Judgment, and the creation of a literal, non-covenantal New Heaven and New Earth free from the curse of sin and death which was occasioned by the fall of Adam and Eve.

Thus Partial Preterists are in agreement and conformity with the historic ecumenical creeds of the Church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the early Church Fathers. Partial preterists hold that the New Testament predicts and depicts many "comings" of Christ.[citation needed] They contend that the phrase Second Coming means the second of a like kind in a series, for the Scriptures record other "comings" of God even before Jesus' judgment in AD 70.[citation needed]

This would eliminate the AD 70 event as the "second" of any series, let alone the second of a series in which the earthly, physical ministry of Christ is the first. Partial Preterists believe that the new creation comes in redemptive progression as Christ reigns from His heavenly throne, subjugating His enemies, and will eventually culminate in the destruction of the "last enemy", i.e., physical death (1 Cor 15:20-24). In the Partial Preterist paradigm, since enemies of Christ still exist, the resurrection event cannot have already occurred.

Nearly all Partial Preterists hold to amillennialism or postmillennialism. Some postmillennial Partial Preterists, as proposed by the late author David Chilton, are also theonomic in their outlook. Partial Preterists typically accept the authority of the Creeds on the basis that they believe that the Creeds are in conformity with what the Scriptures teach.

Despite being separated from the eschatological disputes of the West, the eschatological view historically held by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches is that of the amillennialist Partial Preterists although these Churches may not explicitly state this as their position.


Full Preterism

Full Preterism differs from Partial Preterism in that Full Preterists believe that all eschatology or "end times" events were fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming or Parousia.[30] Full Preterism is also known by several other names: Preterism (because the term itself means "past"), Consistent Preterism, True Preterism, Hyper-Preterism (a pejorative term used by opponents of Preterists), and Pantelism. (The term "Pantelism" comes from two Greek roots: παν (pan), "everything", and τελ- (tel-), referring to completion—another attempted pejorative label that never caught on).

Full Preterism holds that Jesus' Second Coming is to be viewed not as a future bodily return, but rather a "return" in glory manifested by the physical destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple in A.D. 70 by foreign armies in a manner similar to various Old Testament descriptions of God coming to destroy other nations in righteous judgment. Full Preterism also holds that the Resurrection of the Dead did not entail the raising of the physical body but rather the resurrection of the soul from the "place of the dead", known as Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek) and that both the living and the dead were raised, changed, caught away and glorified together into one/corporate matured New Covenant Body of Christ.

Some versions of Full Preterism teach that the righteous dead obtained an individual spiritual and substantial body for use in the heavenly realm, and the unrighteous dead were cast into the Lake of Fire. Some Full Preterists believe that this judgment is ongoing and that it takes effect upon the death of each individual (Heb. 9:27).[citation needed]

Other Full Preterists believe that because the Book of Revelation was signified (or "symbolized", according to its first verse, Revelation 1:1), the Lake of Fire was only AD 70s Gehenna (Jerusalem's garbage dump, not Hell) as it burned. Moreover, this burning was just aionios (pertaining to an age), not eternal. The hermeneutic of audience relevance confines this judgment and punishment to the 1st century AD.[citation needed]

The New Heaven and the New Earth are also equated with the New Covenant and the Fulfillment of the Law in AD 70 and are to be viewed in the same manner by which a Christian is considered a "new creation" upon his or her conversion.[citation needed]

Full Preterists typically reject the authority of the Creeds to condemn their view, stating that the Creeds were written by uninspired and fallible men and that appeals should be made instead to the Scriptures themselves (sola scriptura).[citation needed]

PL, Wich camp are you in Full Moderate, Partial Prreterism? Need to know before we continue...
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[puritan lad]

The quotes are basically correct, though different individuals have different little nuances. I'm Partial. Full Preterism denies a future Advent and a Future resurrection. It is a heresy.

[B. W.]

The quotes are basically correct, though different individuals have different little nuances. I'm Partial. Full Preterism denies a future Advent and a Future resurrection. It is a heresy.

PL,

Here is another link form Partial Preterist view point. I am trying to clarify where you stand so this topic can be addressed more concisely and clearly. Do your views reflect Replacement theology describe in the quote below or more Covenant theology?

Next, Do you agree with the statement below summarizing Revelation chapter seven? and then concerning Revelation Chapter Seven, in your view is chapter seven referring to past or future?

And next: When was the Great Tribulation according to your view?

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/2 ... by-chapter

Revelation Chapter 7: John sees the whole Church (the great multitude), along with the faithful remnant of Israel, symbolically represented as a group of 144,000. The twelve tribes of Israel are named, but rearranged for symbolic purposes. Judah is placed at the first of the list, because Jesus is the "Lion of Judah". Dan is removed from the list because Genesis 49 calls him a "serpent", who is the enemy of the Church in the Revelation. Dan is replaced by Manasseh, similar to how Judas was replaced by Matthias. They are sealed with the seal of God, to show that they are protected from the destruction during the Jewish-Roman War. (67-70 AD)

Additional Notes:

•I cannot repeat it enough times: Partial preterists do not believe that the Second Coming took place in 70 AD. God had several, unique "judgment comings" throughout the Old Testament, in which God "came" and destroyed a wicked nation by using another nation as his tool of judgment. Likewise, the "coming of the Son of Man" is interpreted by partial preterists as referring to Christ's "judgment coming" in 70 AD, in which he "came" and destroyed apostate Israel by using the Roman nation as his tool of judgment. Partial preterists do believe that the Second Coming is still in our future, in which Christ will physically return to the earth.

•Partial preterism does not teach "replacement theology", it teaches "covenant theology".

•"Replacement theology" is the teaching that ethnic Israel was replaced by the Church.

•"Covenant theology" is the teaching that the Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant. The Church is considered to be the same thing as Israel. The Church/Israel consists of Christ-believing ethnic Israelites, and goes on to "graft on" Christ-believing ethnic Gentiles. Similarly, the Church/Israel "breaks off" Christ-rejecting ethnic Israelites, and excludes Christ-rejecting ethnic Gentiles.

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[puritan lad]

Here is another link form Partial Preterist view point. I am trying to clarify where you stand so this topic can be addressed more concisely and clearly. Do your views reflect Replacement theology describe in the quote below or more Covenant theology?

Covenant Theology, though many would see these as identical as far as Israel is concerned.

Next, Do you agree with the statement below summarizing Revelation chapter seven? and then concerning Revelation Chapter Seven, in your view is chapter seven referring to past or future?

I agree thay Revelation 7 is past, and with the reasoning behind the removal of Dan. There is no consensus on the ordering of the twelve tribes among partial preterists. However you may be interested in David Chilton's partial preterist exposition Revelation. See http://www.rpts.edu/media/TheDaysofVeng ... hilton.pdf

And next: When was the Great Tribulation according to your view?

The Great Tribulation was the Jewish and Roman persecution of the church leading up to 70 AD.

[Gman]

B.W.,

We don't "spiritualize" Revelation, but we do hold that the book is highly symbolic (and I think you would agree). Using these passage to favor zionism is a questionable practice, especially with the Jewish themes throughout the Book.

The common theme throughout Revelation is a contrast between the true Israel (the church) vs. the false Israel (the land beast,), true Jews (Christ's seed) vs. false Jews (the synanogue of Satan), the bride of Christ vs. the Great Harlot (see Isaiah 1:21), the Heavenly Jerusalem vs. that Great City, spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where our Lord was Crucified, the seed of the woman vs. the seed of the serpent, and many others. In light of this, assuming the tribes of Rev. 7 refer to "Israel after the flesh" is not only a huge assumption, but goes against the flow of the rest of the book.

After the elect of the twelve tribes are sealed in Revelation 7, John sees a "great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands…". Why do you assume two groups? John says nothing about seeing another group of people.

No, but the passage talks about all the tribes, so why couldn't the tribes of Israel be intertwined with the tribes of all nations in front of the throne of the lamb? Are we not the spiritual partners with the 12 tribes? Revelation 21:12

They are one and the same, as the twelve tribes in Revelation refer to the universal church, in contrast to those who based their covenant status on DNA while rejecting Christ, "...those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (Revelation 2:9)

I don't see how you are coming up with Jews equaling the synanogue of satan. These verses Revelation 3:7-9, Revelation 2:8-9 say nothing of "all" Jews, like a nation, but only some Jews. Rather, as history reveals, there were some "bad" Jews, under the guidance of Nero who were responsible for the death on many Christians. These verses in Revelation took place after Christianity was taking root.

Jesus' curse on the fig tree was "May no fruit ever come from you again!". Israel, as a covenant nation. ceased to exist forever.

I'm not sure if I agree with you on this PL. Let's look at Matthew 21:18 and Matthew 24:32-34

Matthew 21:18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

And now in Matthew 24...

Matthew 24:32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

From Matthew 24:34 it appears that Matthew 21:19 it is talking about a certain Jewish generation, not the entire nation of Israel. This was the generation that was destroyed in 70 AD, but not all the generations of Israel. The future generations will grow again. Please see Romans 11:1.

[Gman]

Since becoming a Christian I have always found the following verses from Revelation fascinating:

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

Rev 7:5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;

Rev 7:6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;

Rev 7:7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;

Rev 7:8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands…

Two groups of people mentioned – one beinging Israel and low and behold all the twelve tribe’s mentioned!

Then verse 9 – the Gentiles – maybe Jew and Gentile made one in Christ is being represented here but what is obvious – the Church is not identified with the twelve tribes of Israel. So Gman, the DNA thing is interesting!

Also, does not the reader know that the bible prophesies that there would be two total dispersals of the entire OT Jewish people into nations and two regatherings back to the land by a remnant? Then comes time of dividing?

Two of the dispersals caused by what Moses stated in Deuteronomy 30:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6c and Deuteronomy 29:25, 26, 27, 28, 29c and Deuteronomy 28:37, 49, 50, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68c have occured and From these two a remnant returns back into the land....

How many times did this happen to all of the children of Israel, scattered into the nations and then regathered?
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Yes.. This is what I'm finding too Bryan.. In fact I'm finding the Jews have always had some kind falling out with the rest of the nations.

1182-Jews were expelled from France, and all their property was confiscated.

1289-The council of Vienna ordered Jews to wear a round patch on their clothing.

1290-Jews were expelled from England.

1347-In Europe, Jews were charged with starting the Black Death by poisoning wells, and thousands were massacred.

1497-Jews were expelled from Portugal.

1826--Pope Leo decreed that Jews were to be confined to ghettos and their property confiscated.

1904-Pope Pius X said, "The Jews have not recognized our Lord; therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people:'

1921-A Vatican spokesman said that the Catholic Church did not wish to assist the Jewish race, "which is permeated with a revolutionary and rebellious spirit."

1925-At a conference in Innsbruck, Austria, Roman Catholic Bishop Sigismund Waitz said Jews were "an alien people" who had corrupted England, France, Italy and America.

[Gman]

This link covers many of the genetic studies on Jews..

Genetic studies on Jews

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

[B. W.]

Here is another link form Partial Preterist view point. I am trying to clarify where you stand so this topic can be addressed more concisely and clearly. Do your views reflect Replacement theology describe in the quote below or more Covenant theology?

Covenant Theology, though many would see these as identical as far as Israel is concerned.

Next, Do you agree with the statement below summarizing Revelation chapter seven? and then concerning Revelation Chapter Seven, in your view is chapter seven referring to past or future?

I agree thay Revelation 7 is past, and with the reasoning behind the removal of Dan. There is no consensus on the ordering of the twelve tribes among partial preterists. However you may be interested in David Chilton's partial preterist exposition Revelation. See http://www.rpts.edu/media/TheDaysofVeng ... hilton.pdf

And next: When was the Great Tribulation according to your view?

The Great Tribulation was the Jewish and Roman persecution of the church leading up to 70 AD.

Let me share with you now that we have established where you stand as see if you view point is correct concerning Revelation chapter seven. So let me be brief and simplify with conciseness several truths that your viewpoint on partial Preterism misses regarding why the tribe of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in Rev Chapter seven. This is brief and the bible stands on its own.

Dan was Naphtali’s brother having the same mother and are thus joined in that sense, so a remnant of Dan is included with Naphtali in Revelation chapter seven. Dan, was the first born (Gen 30:6-7). The Tribe of Dan would have lost its leadership role as a ruling Tribe due to what Judges 18 reveal (Tribe of Dan fell away from God to Idols and lead other to do the same), so Dan’s remnant would find themselves now under Naphtali headship and merged with them as part of the line of secession due too loss of leadership role: Dan subordinate to Naphtali.

Now, Manasseh, is mentioned because in Joshua 13:1 as the Lord told Joshua in Joshua 13:7 that Manasseh had an inheritance, so Manasseh would be included in Rev 7:6 due to this and be able to take Dan’s place. Why? Because Gen 49:16-17 reference to judging wisely as a serpent to throw the powerful off balance? No, Dan lost his place due to what Judges 18 reveals: They followed idols and led others to do the same (Amos 8:14). So thru secession, his biological brother Naphtali would become head of the tribe. So, Tribe of Dan is not excluded from Rev 7:6 but would find itself placed under Naphtali and not mentioned in text.

If not, what of the Tribe of Dan mentioned in Ezekiel prophecy (Ezekiel chp 42-48)? How could Dan be mentioned there (Ezekiel 48:1-2, 32c) concerning the City Ezekiel measured and described if Dan was excluded from the inheritance that book of Revelation leads too from chapter seven? Let me back up a bit to help you see this.

In Deuteronomy 4:31, God says he will not forsake or destroy his people. Destroy here means to actually annihilate - wipe out totally. God later in Deu 28 would say he would forsake temporally to punish Israel but promises to never totally forsake them as Lev 26:44 states. Read Lev 26: 1-42, 43, 44, 45, 46 as it puts this in more clear light. So if Dan is excluded from Rev 7:6, then would this not violate God’s oath God swore too in Lev 26:45? Dan’s tribe must be merged with his biological brother Tribe’s along with the inheritance mentioned in Ezekiel’s account and as well according to God’s own words, oaths, and promises and gifts which God swears to never break.

Next, what of Ephraim? Ephraim was the second born of Joseph and was blessed as the head (Genesis 48:17-22c) over the first born Manasseh. Ephraim would lose its leadership position due to leading others astray to follow idols as Judges 17:1, 2, 3 and Hosea 4:17, 18, 19c points out (Note they and Dan lead others astray so they both would receive a severer sentence - loss of tribal leadership role).

Since Manasseh already had a claim in the inheritance as being first born (Joshua 13:7), Ephraim would not be mentioned in leadership role but rather placed back under his father’s Joseph inheritance in Rev 7:8, where is Joseph is now mentioned, and in Ezekiel 47:13 has having a double portion of the inheritance (Ezekiel 46:18); therefore, Joseph is in correct placement in Rev 7:8. Look at what Ezekiel was measuring and told about Ezekiel 40:1-2 leading to chapters 47 and 48.

If the Tribe of Dan is not included in Rev, as your doctrine teaches, then is Ezekiel’s prophecy false (Chp 40-48)?

Also note that in Genesis 49:5-6 that Simeon and Levi, whose names also appear in Rev 7 have a very bad reputation: "Simeon and Levi are brothers; Instruments of cruelty are in their dwelling place. 6 Let not my soul enter their council; Let not my honor be united to their assembly; For in their anger they slew a man, And in their self-will they hamstrung an ox."

If Dan was rejected as you said, for being called a serpent in Rev 7 - then why wasn't Simeon and Levi as well? Look at what Gen 49:16-17c actually says about Dan:, "Dan shall judge his people As one of the tribes of Israel.17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, A viper by the path, That bites the horse's heels So that its rider shall fall backward."

It states in verse 16 - Dan shall judge his people as one of the tribes of Israel Now if Dan was not mentioned in Rev 7 as your position cites due to being called a serpent that bites - then why was not Simeon and Levi excluded too whose reference is far worse and more graphic than Dan's in Gen 49?

Bible explains well why Dan and Ephraim’s name is not mentioned as due to loss of position because they led others into Idol worship and to worship other gods. So therefore, according to God's own words and promises - Their remnant would be merged with another's Tribe, and no need to mention them in Rev 7 as they are included under other tribes authority! Their remnant lost ranking and position.

Amos 8:14 explains why, “Those who swear by the sin of Samaria, Who say, 'As your god lives, O Dan!' And, 'As the way of Beersheba lives!' They shall fall and never rise again."

Does this mean God actually totally abandon Dan and Ephraim as well as all the children of Jacob? Read on in Amos 9:8 to find out and Lev 26 as well to help explain Amos 8:14 better.

So, going back to my main point about Rev 7 and the two groups mentioned in the text, if there were Ten tribes which scholars state that were lost before 70 AD and were not in the Land of Israel (Jacob) – how could they be in the land had Revelations chapter seven had already happened in 70 AD and the Great Tribulation already past as your viewpoint insists?

Deuteronomy 4:31, “(for the LORD your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.”

1 Samuel 12:22, “For the LORD will not forsake His people, for His great name's sake, because it has pleased the LORD to make you His people. “

Psalms 37:28, “For the LORD loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.”

Isaiah 10:20-22, "And it shall come to pass in that day That the remnant of Israel, And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob, Will never again depend on him who defeated them, But will depend on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth 21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, To the Mighty God.22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness."

Jer 23:3, "But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase."

Micah 2:12, "I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together like sheep of the fold, Like a flock in the midst of their pasture; They shall make a loud noise because of so many people."

Micah 4:6-7, "In that day," says the LORD, "I will assemble the lame, I will gather the outcast And those whom I have afflicted;7 I will make the lame a remnant, And the outcast a strong nation; So the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion From now on, even forever."

Isaiah 11:11-12, "It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth."

Last question: When did Isaiah 11:11-12 occur? The first regathering from Babylon? If so, where are the islands located in Babylon? Why the four corners of the earth if Judah was only in Babyon and Israel in Assyria (2 Kings 18:11) at the time of the return from Babylon? When did the second regather happen?

God has not forsaken the Jewish people - He has a plan and it will come about!

Bible quotes from NKJV
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[puritan lad]

B.W.,

There is a lot here, and I will respond in more detail later as I have a ton of meetings this morning. But the short answer is that the tribes mentioned in Revelation are symbolic, not literal tribes (even if they still existed, which is questionable at best). They are the universal church, identical to the great multitude from every tribe, tongue, and nation in verse nine.

As for Ezekiel passages, they were fulfilled in OT times during the age of the Macabees.

See The Past Fulfillment of Ezekiel's War

God has not forsaken the Jewish people - He has a plan and it will come about!

True, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in (Romans 11:24-26). They will be regrafted into the true vine of Jesus Christ, not some 10 mile strip of real estate on the Sinai Peninsula. The fig tree will never bear fruit again.

[B. W.]

Another thing I find amazing is how Calvinism and Covenant theology always proclaim the absolute sovereignty of God, a sparrow can’t fall in the wilderness without this sovereignty but when it comes to the Jewish people returning to Israel from 1920’s thru to this current date, this is a fluke, a man made fiasco! I guess so much for the sovereign will of God, if the Jewish people are a fluke of the works of man – then what of God’s sovereign will?

God always stated that the wicked from amongst the children of ancient Israel would perish and be shifted out Israel and die in their sins and that He would always bring back a remnant to the Land promised – he specifically said this would occur twice and only twice when the entire nation – all tribes of Israel would be removed from the Land, the wicked slain and forsaken but a remnant returns so that the conditions of God’s own oath/promises to the Jewish people can and will be fulfilled. God does this for his own sake for if he did not, then He is not a God of his word. Preterism's doctrine causes God to deny his own character and nature and proves His inability to keep his word and disproves God’s sovereignty as well and remains in error. Would not its doctrine force God to deny his promises to the Jewish people regarding bringing a remnant back to the very Land He made a promise too as their own?

Again, those of the twelve tribes mentioned in Revelation 7 are Jewish – the remnant and the others mentioned in the text as being from all nations – Gentiles: Two groups, just before being united into one new man as Eph 2 speaks about. There are twelve tribes – which supposedly 10 were lost and were not in the nation of Israel during 70 AD. They are mentioned in the text. It does not matter – two groups are simply mentioned and defines that all twelve tribes will be back in Israel which rules out the 70 AD interpretation. Like this or not – it does – deny it – you can – try to sola scripture twist ones way out of this – you can but the fact remains: The 12 tribes are being gathered back to Israel from about 1920’s to this very current date. They exist by the sovereign will of God – not man.

Isaiah 11:11-12 is true and does not refer to Revelation last chapters time frame because a remnant began returning to Israel, a nation born in one day - 1948 and Jews still return there to this day. Less than half of all Jews live in Israel today. God will bring a remnant back into the land – a second time. It is going on even now. There are only two occasions in which the entire Jewish population was expelled from the Land promised and now we have empirically two regatherings have already occured as well, just as God said it would.

Again, like this or not – it has happened – deny it – you can – try to sola scripture twist ones way out of this – you can but the fact remains: The 12 tribes are being regathered back to Israel from about 1920’s to this very current date. They exist by the sovereign will of God – not man. If anyone is a Zionist it is the Sovereign Lord God (Yahweh Elohim) himself!
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