zoegirl wrote:BW I am in no way denying this....please see the quotes I have quoted from you guys and help me understand this. I am absolutely certain that all nations will be represented but the quotes from you guys imply that there is another way for the Jewish nation.
To answer one concern: Jewish converts to Christ will tell a person as I stated before -
we (they) come to Christ like anyone else does, thru Christ. There is only one way to come to Christ for all people, John 3:15-16.
Here is the problem, and since this thread is about eschatology, I wrongly assumed people reading this thread would understand the discussion as pertaining to the end times. So, let me go back and explain it like this by dividing things into simple terms:
When the bible speaks of joining the two (gentile believers and Jew) into one new man – this
began long ago, continues on, but not there yet for completion. This is what throws people when reading Eph 2:11-22 that no distinction is made between
what was begun long ago, continues on, and Not quite there Yet. What I mean by this is as follows:
1-
Long ago: Remember Jesus and the 12 disciples were Jews as well as the 3000 mentioned in the book of Acts. No Gentiles, then the Lord, thru the Jewish Believers brought in the Gentile believers into Christ – long ago - The body of Christ taking shape. Time of Gentiles begins.
2-
Continuing on: refers to the era of the Gentiles coming to Christ and when Jewish believers became rare as hens teeth for awhile. Lot of things in history happened and a chasm developed between Jewish believers and gentile believers. Nowadays, Jewish people are returning to Christ but their numbers are a trickle. This leads to the…
3-
But Not yet in Completion: In eschatological terms, refers to the surviving Jewish people at the time of Christ’s return, after a great and terrible time, who will return back to the Lord by calling on the one whom they pierced. When this event occurs is when the two become one people in Christ in its fullest and completed sense, meaning, and purpose. These are the people I am referring too. They are the
Future Era Jews - FtJ
This has not happened yet but according to various preterist camps they claim either this has already happened or can never happen, or parts may happen, etc and etc. That is what this debate is about.
There are trickles of Jews becoming believers in Christ today, this time, period now. They become a believer in Christ as we all do. I am not referring to this group of people. So I will call these
Current era Jews or
CEJ. The Jewish people from the second regathering in Israel, who are around will see Christ physical return as the bible says –these are
Future era Jews -
FtJ.
Romans 11:26-27 speaks of the FtJ and not limited only to mean the CEJ. Read it again:
Rom 11:26, 27, "And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB; 27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." NKJV
Note context – All Israel will be saved is defined as related to Jacob. Contender w/God is related to the Heal Grabber. Get it - this is not the Church – Israel is not the Church – is Jacob the Church? – NO! Read again the text: The deliver out of Zion – Jesus Christ, He will do what with Jacob? Abandon them, forsake them, write them off as mere indigestion after breakfast?
Heck NO – Jesus will turn away Jacobs ungodliness – For this is my covenant with them when he takes away their sins (Jer 31). Jesus took away all sin’s power long ago 30-35 AD time frame but has Jacob turned away from ungodliness yet? What will it take – answer – a lot. There is a lot of bible prophecy to go thru, lot of signs to be shown, to the FtJ. This has not happened so the one new man is not complete yet until all is fulfilled. Make sense now?
In the Continue on time period, our current now, CEJ Jews get saved as anyone else does – call on the Lord as Paul put it. Jesus died on the cross for them too; if He died for all how can they be excluded? It seems, from the prejudice that emerges from some few Christians at the mere sound or mention of –Jew- their blathering creates a sense of impossibility for God to save the Jewish people at all. It doesn’t matter what they think – God will save them, the FtJ as he said he would and make one people one in Him from both the FtJ and the Gentile Believers! This completes the process of drawing all manner of person's to Christ and making one people. Clear yet? or still clear as mud? I hope not mud
- I am getting tired...
The CEJ can become one in Christ as we do and in doing so become one in Christ NOW along with everyone else who is in Christ. It is the Future Era Jew that has not come to know Christ yet. Not all of the FtJ will know Christ (or the CEJ either) but many-many will come to Christ and become One new People in Christ, thru Christ and by Christ along with everyone else who is One in Christ ! Read Romans chapter 9, 10, 11 again and you will see these distinctions lead to 11:26-27.
In doing so, God maintains and keeps all his promises made to the Jewish people for his own sake, not ours, not mine, not yours, not PL’s, not anyone’s but for his own sake he remains faithful- why for He is GOD!
We as Gentile believers are to share our treasure of knowing Christ with the CEJ so God can do his work in preparing for things to come for the FtJ. The CEJ and Gentile Believers are already One in Christ together but God made promises to certain people, and He keeps these, He can and will redeem the Jewish people, His way at an appointed time to come and thus all that will be –will be made one – understand now? The final completion of binding two peoples into one peoples has not happened yet in our continuing on lives in utter final fulfiment (boy am I getting tongue tied and sleepy
Hope this makes sense by dividing and categorizing things in three parts as I did. This is an over simplification but I hope it helps break things apart to see what I am talking about with Gman.
Some people hold the view that the Church is now Israel – build a whole branches of doctrine from that premise. This doctrine has lead historically to the slaughter of millions of Jews – A tree is known by its fruit! Think about it.
The bible does not call the Church Israel. Partaking of the promise of Israel is partaking of salvation (Christ), becoming one in the Lord together, being set free from sin and death - that salvation.
God has not forsaken the Jewish people, nor superseded them and they come to Christ as anyone else would. Those that do not will remain lost as anyone else would. Those that come to Christ, like anyone else who comes to Christ is made one with him – not one with a Church but one in Christ with all believers.
In heaven, if we are there during a certain time, or on earth, we’ll see many FtJ return and thus be reminded how God is absolutely faithful to His own words, oaths, and promises to a people he chose long ago to be a part of Christ – the hope of Glory. Can you trust a god who breaks his word, or keeps it? Such is the Love God has – to keep his word.
Most of this is cloudy to people, us gentiles, because of bad doctrine that excludes the Jewish people as the only people God cannot save or fails to see’s that we gentiles are grafted into the vine/stump.
We are the Body of Christ - or are we the Body of the Church world?
We belong to Christ and are placed into Christ. We meet in assemblies of fellow believers as a community called out from the larger secular community to learn more about Christ, growth, learn lessons, be discipled, attain help, aid, evangelize, etc… We are called the Body of Christ not the Body of Church. God have mercy on us if we are just a body of Church!
1 Co 12:12 - For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
1 Co 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Co 12:14 - For in fact the body is not one member but many.
1 Co 12:15 - If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body?
1 Co 12:27 - Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. NKJV
I think the Bible calls us the body of Christ – does it not?
Was the Lord of Glory named Israel or Jesus? By whose name can we all be saved – Israel or Jesus’?
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