Flaws with Dispensational Theology

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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by puritan lad »

B.W.

I appreciate your responses, but...

May I request that you divide up your posts into smaller posts so that we can deal with each item. Your Encyclopedia-long posts no only make it hard to respond, but rather hard to read.

Second, I'm not sure why a few here object to being labeled as they are. You are clearly espousing Dispensational theology, yet don't want to be labeled as a Dispensationalist. You gain nothing by pretending to be a "middle of the road", neutral observer. You cannot, for example, write:
B.W. wrote:It is both the Preterist and Dispensationist mindset that screws things up and clouds over the simplicity that is in Christ. Denying the obivious and creating confusion as this thread attest too, correct? Sorry for the harshness - both sides remain blind.
and then turn around and write:
B.W. wrote:This event has not happened yet.
Call yourself whatever you like, but for what you are writing here, you are a Dispensationalist (as well as begging the question.) Whatever you intended, you ae setting yourself up as having more insight than the rest because you are supposedly "theologically neutral", while the rest of us "remain blind".

Now can you pick out one or three items that you would like to discuss as to whether they have happened yet? That'll be the easiest way to proceed.
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by B. W. »

Gman wrote:Bryan... I think that sums it up very well.. But where I'm confused is the messianic Jews and the non-messianic Jews. Identifying the remnant in Romans 11:5-6. As we to propose that they are messianic Jews or non-messianic Jews?

In other words, what is the role of Christ church? To evangelize the non-Jews to messianic Jews?
According to the bible - they are one in Christ with us. Some might not realize that yet :lol:

We are the watchmen mentioned in Isa 62:6, 10 and Zep. Calling to God's mind his promises and praying for the Jewish people and bring those appointed to be ONE with Christ - not one with a Church or dogma - but ONE in Christ with us all who believe. These are the CEJ believers I wrote about. They are still God's unique people and have a special place in His heart due to what He promised them, we treat them as such with respect and pour into them the treasures of Christ. This unlocks the gospel message in ways they never have seen before,

Example:

In Jewish assemblies, they carry the Torah scroll around the circle of the congregation. People reach for it to touch it, some barely can touch the hem of the garment cloth that surrounds the Torah. This ritual represents the Calling of the local assembly together to hear the word of God. This often becomes dry to Jews - a ritual.

But to CEJ believers this means this:

The scroll, Word of God, wrapped in a garment is heralding people of a local assembly to Hear the Word of God. You see the symbolism: The Word of God (John 1:1) circling and calling his people to this assembly today to hear His word! Calling out to a local community of believers to an assembly to hear the Word of God (John1:1-3, 14). Where one can touch even the hem of his garment! Our gentile churches rarely meet with much excitement concerning this matter. Should we rob them of this and demand they conform to our observances?

Or pour into them the treasures of Christ that awakens them to new life in Christ - God has a plan...
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by B. W. »

puritan lad wrote:B.W.

I appreciate your responses, but...

May I request that you divide up your posts into smaller posts so that we can deal with each item. Your Encyclopedia-long posts no only make it hard to respond, but rather hard to read.
Wish I could do that but the tone of this thread was getting out of hand of which I am partly responsible for creating the confusion leading us too, here.

So a long post was necessary to help people see that people all get saved the same way no matter when in the future either.

PL, We can disaggree with about Preterism. I am not a Dispensationalist either - both side have pleanty of error. Both sides have truths too. It maybe to hard for you to take off Partial Preterist glasses but keep reading the bible, I am confident the Lord can break the hardest of spiritual hips. He broke mine, and for that, I am grateful for that grace.

May he do so for you too... Amen...
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by zoegirl »

Actually I thought the tone wasn't so bad...it's been worse :esurprised: :econfused:

For a debate we've been civil and working together rather well I thought!

I'm still darn confused though...I keep hearing that, while Christ is necessary, the nation of Jews, whether or not they have believed, will be restored, which sounds an awful lot like saying that they do no nor will not need to accept Christ.

Keeping it simple. At the time, what will happen to those of the Jewish nation that still reject Christ, will they still be restored to their nation and be reconciled with God? Let keep this as simple as possible..
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by puritan lad »

Fair enough.

I am a Preterist, not because I have some affection for preterism, but because I see it as consistent with the Scriptures. If I am to be convinced otherwise, it'll have to be from Scripture. Here is a list (originally given by Amillennialist Bobby Grow, which I modified and added comments on) that better explains the preterist approach:

1.) It is Christocentric. It makes Christ the center of all Biblical Covenants, not a piece of earthly real estate.
The entire Bible is a story of redemption in Jesus Christ. This includes the Covenants of the Old Testament. It was Christ alone who fulfilled the Adamic Covenant of works (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:17). It was Christ alone whose blood is a worthy atonement for man’s life in the Noahic Covenant (Hebrews 9:12). It was Christ and Christ alone who is the seed of Abraham by which all nations are blessed (Galatians 3:8, 14-16, 29). It was Christ alone who was “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29), and it is Christ alone who was resurrected from the dead to sit on the throne of David (Acts 2:29-35). Finally, there is only one new Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34), of which Christ alone is the mediator. (Hebrews 8:8-12).

In contrast, those who hold to the self-anointed “literal hermeneutic” err in honoring Judaism, the vain attempt to keep the Old Covenant while rejecting Christ. There is no covenant without Christ, and there never has been. Even the Old Testament saints worshipped Christ (1 Corinthians 10:1-4).

2.) It notes the universal scope of the Abrahamic Covenant (as key) to interpreting the rest of the biblical covenants. It sees salvation history oriented to a person (Christ), instead of a people (the nation of Israel).
The Abrahamic Covenant was not merely a promise of blessings to one nation, for God promised Abraham that he would “be the father of a multitude of nations.” (Genesis 17:4). It is the Christians of many nations who “are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.” (Galatians 3:29). In contrast, those who rejected Christ do not belong to God or Abraham, but the Devil (John 8:39-44).

Those who hold to the “literal” interpretation have no understanding the mystery, “that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” (Ephesians 3:6). They insist on two separate covenants. In contrast, the Amillennial/Postmillennial Hermeneutic emphasizes continuity between the “people of God” (Israel and the Church are one in Christ (Ephesians 2:11). It does not assume a covenant with Christ-rejecters, not does it make God a respecter of race or DNA.

3.) It takes seriously the time frame references in Scripture, as well as the original audience, and does not seek to rip them from their historical context.
In the amillennial/postmillennial hermeneutic, it is unnecessary to explain away the time frame references in Scripture. We hold that all of the events of the Olivet Discourse took place within the Apostle’s generation, just like Christ said they would. (Matthew 24:34). We hold that the events of the Book of Revelation were to take place “shortly” (Revelation 1:1), were “near” (Revelation 1:3), and were “about to come upon the whole land” (Revelation 3:10).

We hold that the prophecies in the Bible actually meant something to those who heard or received them in the First Century. We don’t believe that Jesus told His disciples to flee Judea during a tribulation that would take place 2,000 years in the future (Matthew 24:16). We do not believe that Christ threatened to throw the church of Thyatira into a great tribulation that was still 2,000 years away (Revelation 2:22), nor do we believe that He promised to keep the church of Philadelphia from events that none of them would ever live to see (Revelation 3:10). Furthermore, we do not require arbitrary 2,000 year gaps between Old Testament prophecies, nor does it seek to “allegorize” the seven churches that John wrote to.

4.) It flows from a hermeneutic that takes seriously the literary character of the Scriptures (esp. the book of Revelation)
Other schools claim to hold to a more “literal” hermeneutic, but it is clear that their literalism is selectively and arbitrarily applied (as can be seen from Futurism’s view of Ezekiel 38-45, and well as Matthew 26:27-28 vs. Matthew 25:31). The truth of the matter is that there isn’t very much in the Book of Revelation that is to be taken “literally”. The question isn’t one of literal vs. symbolic, but rather how best to interpret the symbols. The symbols in Revelation are not arbitrary, but have clear and distinct meanings. Furthermore, these symbols were expected to be understood by those to whom the prophecy was given (Revelation 1:3). We hold that the apocalyptic language used in Scripture can be interpreted by other scriptures, and in doing so, the Book of Revelation can be understood. (It is entitled “Revelation”, not “Mystery”.)

5.) It takes seriously the authority of the New Testament in interpreting Old Testament prophecy.
It is amazing to me how many Christians will openly deny this point. They will claim that they refuse to use the New Testament to interpret Old Testament prophecy, which brings up the obvious question of what they do use. The Old Testament prophecies cannot be properly understood without the New Testament, for the New Testament was given so that “you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.” (Ephesians 3:4-5). Jesus warned the Judaist of His day, saying, “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.” (John 5:39-40). To ignore what the New Testament says about Old Testament prophecy is nothing short of a denial of the authority of the New Testament.

Even this is selectively applied. All Christians, for example, use the New Testament to interpret Old Testament prophecies such as Micah 5:2-4 (see Matthew 2:6). So on what basis will they reject Peter’s fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (Acts 2:25-36), Paul’s fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant (Galatians 3:1-29), or the writer of Hebrews fulfillment of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:6-12)? So when they claim they a literal hermeneutic, applied consistently, always leads to premillennialism, don’t believe it. If followed consistently, it would lead to Judaism. (BTW: There is no mention of a millennium in the Old Testament, or anywhere outside of Revelation 20.)
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by Gman »

zoegirl wrote:I'm still darn confused though...I keep hearing that, while Christ is necessary, the nation of Jews, whether or not they have believed, will be restored, which sounds an awful lot like saying that they do no nor will not need to accept Christ.

Keeping it simple. At the time, what will happen to those of the Jewish nation that still reject Christ, will they still be restored to their nation and be reconciled with God? Let keep this as simple as possible..
Yes that is where I'm confused too... It appears that the Jewish remnant (of non-believers) are actually our enemies, but are receiving grace from God on the account of the patriarchs.

Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

Perhaps we could say that it is not a saving grace here but sometime in the future they will come to Christ and be saved..

Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I realize this is not part of the talk that PL and Bryan is discussing, maybe I'll break it off to the Zionist post.. Sorry folks.
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by Byblos »

zoegirl wrote:Actually I thought the tone wasn't so bad...it's been worse :esurprised: :econfused:

For a debate we've been civil and working together rather well I thought!

I'm still darn confused though...I keep hearing that, while Christ is necessary, the nation of Jews, whether or not they have believed, will be restored, which sounds an awful lot like saying that they do no nor will not need to accept Christ.

Keeping it simple. At the time, what will happen to those of the Jewish nation that still reject Christ, will they still be restored to their nation and be reconciled with God? Let keep this as simple as possible..
Also, what happens to the Jews who die before their nation is restored.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by puritan lad »

Great Question Byblos, especially in light of Romans 11:26.

Have to add that one to my arsenal.
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by Gman »

Byblos wrote:
Also, what happens to the Jews who die before their nation is restored.
You mean the OT Jews or the Jews in the NT?
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by B. W. »

puritan lad wrote:Great Question Byblos, especially in light of Romans 11:26.

Have to add that one to my arsenal.
Just like anyone else who rejects Christ...
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by B. W. »

I have been asking the Lord about this thread and how to respond to the confusion and then it dawned on me – that all things do indeed work for good for those who love the Lord and are called to hi purposes. Zoe, Gman, Jlay, PL, Byblos, other who resound are all called so let’s learn from this.

I often mention how reading the bible; we can come to a time when we must wrestle with the Lord to uncover an answer to a supposed contradiction that we may find. This very thread offers a time that illustrates what I mean how to go about such wrestling and how it works. Instead of you and the Lord, we have here, each other. Zoe brought up a great point – are we not already one in Christ and thus how are the Jews fit into this. Gman brings out valid points that they are God’s chosen people, etc. Another comes in and says, wait what about this point – is that a contradiction?

When this happens it is best to learn to wrestle with this with the Lord. You do what Psalm 46:10 says: Stop, be still before the Lord and know that He is God. When you stop, you go before the Lord and say, what about this Lord how does it jive with that – show me. Next wait, never try to say Lord My doctrine says this is how it is right and theirs wrong. God will not be exalted in this – and no answer will you find despite all the knocking and asking one may do echoing in a void.

The Lord will begin connecting the dots in the bible, leading you to scriptures in uniques ways, building off what you already know, challenging it, or leading you there by whatever means He wills that so often will blow our doctrines right out of the water, and solve the contradiction. Now if a person tries this to support their views on Preterism, dispensationalism , Zionism, etc.. and etc – you are exalting your doctrine above the knowledge of God and you will receive silence and no growth will be the only answer found.

Try this on your own and first question: So how do you reconcile the following:

Gal 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:15 - having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

Eph 3:6 - that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,


With the Jews mentioned in by Paul in Romans 9:1-36. You begin wrestling with the Lord and say, “How will God save the Jews, are they saved by some other way other than grace (John 3:16)? If so, that would be a contradiction – how then Lord does this make sense?”

You sit still and know that He is God. You cannot bring your pet doctrine before him as the answer you receive will not exalt your doctrine but always exalt him – reveal a glimpse of the Majesty of the Lord. It will never tell you to commit violence, etc… You will find yourself led to various verses in the bible that will cause you to ask more questions: You asked, How will you Lord save all the Jews as Paul said.

You come across later month, days, weeks, years, minutes… to verse – Matt 24:27c, coming in clouds, then another John 19:34-37c, then Zec 12:10. You stop and ask – what are you trying to show me Lord… Then you come across a seemingly unrelated verse that catches your eye – The Lord inhabits Eternity – then you are remind of all the info you learned on the Timlessness of God.

You are seeking out what He means – how can the Jews be saved any different than us? Then the Lord brings things together like – read the context of the verse – did this happen or not, if you think so – when – are you sure – how does it exalt me (The Lord) or does it your doctrine? What your motive? You may have to eat some crow as the they say and move on.

Suddenly it is like blinders are removed from your eyes and you see a picture emerge from the bible that reconciles what you first thought was a contradiction by pointing and exalting God and not your doctrine! So for time sake for this you find: There will be Jews at a certain point in time, in Israel, who will be brought to believe in the Lord like anyone else does when they SEE the Lord come in the Clouds and that Zep was correct in recording that the Mighty One will save them – they will call on him whom they pierced – all Israel at that time will be saved.

What about the Jews now, are there two people or one as Gal 3:28 says? You discover that eternity there is no time, the timeless nature of eternity helps you see things from God perspective but we live in time – those Jews who are called before that time of looking upon him who they pierced become saved like anyone else does and they are one with us as we are of the same vine (Christ). The others who at a certain time will be evangelized by the Lord himself coming in the Clouds, etc and etc (all the scripture connect)!

When will the last person become saved – Time of Gentiles end and who’s left to be saved – the Jews! Then Romans 11:24-27 makes sense. At that final moment – the two become one new man bringing to completion the building of the body of Christ! In God’s sight, timeless eternity, there is a building processes where people are added in (we are in this time frame now) and a completed stage when it is done! Then you see all the bible verses that point this out remarkably clear and God is exalted in it and you shout Glory – that’s so cool, so clever, wise, powerful – geeze these aspects of my doctrine were in error but now I see!

Then you come to another question another problem and you practice the same thing. The Lord builds upon what you know. People get frighten of this because it involves faith – real faith to be still, set your sight upon the Lord and wait for him to put all the pieces together. It is when people try this with the intent to match their doctrine and ideas is how people branch off into flakiness and one-upmanship. If you don’t do this as Jesus said in Mat 13:52 be willing to bring forth what is old and new before him to get rid of the bad. You’ll remain stuck…and not know what is of value and what is not from any treasure old or new.

If I were to take sides, I would side with the Dispensationalist for one reason only. They are more apt to repent and change doctrine more toward the truth once they see that its contradictions can’t be reconciled and thus are more able to toss out the bad.

Preterits can do the same but in my personal opinion, it comes much harder for them to do because there are more hard headed Preterist than hard headed dispensationalist. You can tell the hard headed preterist a mile away cause when they come near they come swinging :nunchaku: then both sides repeatedly :pillows: but-t heads and nothing is ever settled.

So be still, wrestle with God over this – take your time, be willing to repent when you find what you thought was truth was instead error and be led to the next question. Jesus tells us to keep on asking, seeking, knocking for God to be exalted, not yourself or you doctrine’s dogma, and you will have those things you asked for.
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by puritan lad »

B.W.,

Everything you wrote fits right into the Postmillennial Preterist view. But I do have to ask about this:
B.W. wrote:If I were to take sides, I would side with the Dispensationalist for one reason only. They are more apt to repent and change doctrine more toward the truth once they see that its contradictions can’t be reconciled and thus are more able to toss out the bad.

Preterits can do the same but in my personal opinion, it comes much harder for them to do because there are more hard headed Preterist than hard headed dispensationalist. You can tell the hard headed preterist a mile away cause when they come near they come swinging
Is that a valid reason to side with Dispensationalism? I don't see anything around this type of reasoning that would lead anyone to think that Dispensationalism is objectively true. What it really sounds like is that you presuppose certain truths about Israel, etc., and have a tough time answering clear contradictions within the system (and thus those on the other side are hard headed). I haven't seen any good arguments here against preterism (though there are some that exist), but instead I read a long list of argumentum ad circulum (ie. "this hasn't happened yet", etc.). The failure to convince someone of your point of view doesn't necessarily make them hard headed (though I am that). It could be because your arguments are just not very convincing.

I have put up a clear, readable list of the flaws I see in Dispensationalism (see original post in this thread). These discussions have validated, rather than answer, what is in that list. I have also explained what I see as the superiority of the Covenantal Approach. Perhaps you, or someone on your side, could do the same. I would like to see a clear list of flaws within preterism, as well as why the Dispensational approach is valid. I need to see clear arguments from Scripture, and arguments that don't contradict other Scriptures. ( I realize that you use a ton of Scripture in your posts, but like I wrote earlier, they beg certain questions, presupposing that the Dispensational view if correct, plus they are too long to deal with in a timely manner right now.)

If nothing else, maybe you can list a short, readable list of what you beleive and why, just like I did.
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by Byblos »

Gman wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Also, what happens to the Jews who die before their nation is restored.
You mean the OT Jews or the Jews in the NT?
I mean the Jews of the NT and of today.
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by Gman »

Bryan, thanks for what you have written. I read every word, you put a lot of time into your posts.. That makes more sense. ;)
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: Flaws with Dispensational Theology

Post by Gman »

Byblos wrote:
Gman wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Also, what happens to the Jews who die before their nation is restored.
You mean the OT Jews or the Jews in the NT?
I mean the Jews of the NT and of today.
Yes, I'm still confused on this too.. But here would be my guess. They would be saved just like they were in the OT times. I think we also have to remember that many of the OT folks didn't even have a Bible (or road map) to salvation like we do today. In that regards we are fortunate. Was Adam and Eve saved?? I believe they were, and they didn't even own a Bible. They understood the concepts..

We didn't even have the complete Bible until the 3rd century. Are we to believe that salvation couldn't occur until after that?

Yes, I know Christ has come and the OT laws are mostly done away with, true.. But in Romans 11:5-6 we find a stubbornness/blindness among the Jews for their savior. Is God waiting for them to get it?? And if they don't get it before they die or Christ comes will God honor (save) them any way because of a promise? Again, I'm not God, but I might say here possibly. But I can't say for certain, so don't hold me against it..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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