Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
August wrote:
As far as we can determine, redemptive history started between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago, and went through the different periods from there. Even if we are liberal with the evidence, and stretch it to 15,000 years, it still leaves a whole lot of human history before the Biblical redemptive history starts.
What happened to those who lived before the Biblical history of redemption started?
John I'm not sure where you are getting the redemptive history times.. You mean the genealogies?
Oh nevermind.. You are..
This link about genealogies explains it, but you are right, we are talking about some big gaps here..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Yes, RTB is also working off some of the same assumptions. I've seen 30k -50k years ago claimed for first human life and used 30k for the sake of being conservative. But there is just today some story of tools found in the Middle East that dates to 125k years ago, dated to the same time as those supposedly from the first humans in Africa.
The problem is still how we draw the parallel between what we get from the ANE texts, dated 10,000 to 12,000 in terms of cultural development, and that which preceded it. If there was no one Adam, then our redemptive history makes little sense, as MoL said. Or was Adam from 125k or 30k years ago?
(Our YEC brothers must be smiling at this point)
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."
August wrote:
As far as we can determine, redemptive history started between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago, and went through the different periods from there. Even if we are liberal with the evidence, and stretch it to 15,000 years, it still leaves a whole lot of human history before the Biblical redemptive history starts.
What happened to those who lived before the Biblical history of redemption started?
John I'm not sure where you are getting the redemptive history times.. You mean the genealogies?
Oh nevermind.. You are..
This link about genealogies explains it, but you are right, we are talking about some big gaps here..
It is not just that, I am also going off the fact that the OT was written in the terms and images of ANE culture that did not exist before 12k to 15k years ago. Or at least there is no evidence that it did.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."
August wrote:(Our YEC brothers must be smiling at this point)
LOL.. No, I think it is a valid question too.. Actually if we want to add 6 thousand years into this from the first Adam, and then get all the cultures we see today from micro-evolution is a leap of faith IMO too...
But yes, how long really are these years? It is possible, as someone eluded to before, that Adam wasn't the first human but was actually the first person of the Jewish race.. Genesis 1:27 are simply the first humans, Genesis 2:7 is the start of the Jewish race..
This is a separate creation in the Garden of Eden here from Genesis 1:27..
Therefore this would also answer the question where Cain really got his wife...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."
However this same Jewish race broke our stand with God for all humans.
It is possible, that there were other gardens in other places of the world too before the Garden of Eden.. In fact, they could have been setup with the same foundations..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
August wrote:(Our YEC brothers must be smiling at this point)
LOL.. No, I think it is a valid question too.. Actually if we want to add 6 thousand years into this from the first Adam, and then get all the cultures we see today from micro-evolution is a leap of faith IMO too...
But yes, how long really are these years? It is possible, as someone eluded to before, that Adam wasn't the first human but was actually the first person of the Jewish race.. Genesis 1:27 are simply the first humans, Genesis 2 is the start of the Jewish race..
Therefore this would also answer the question where Cain really got his wife...
YEC has it own set of problems, for sure. But this is not one of them.
The Jewish race did not come about until Judah, in Gen 29. Before that there is an intermixing of cultures and bloodlines. Not really much relevance here, but it is a stretch to say that Adam, defined as the first man, is not the same first man from Gen 1.
I lean towards a spiritual creation, but that requires some Scriptural gymnastics too. Maybe we should focus more on when man actually became "made in God's image", as God is a spiritual being, not a physical being, who just manifested in human shape once.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."
Gman wrote:
It is possible, that there were other gardens in other places of the world too before the Garden of Eden.. In fact, they could have been setup with the same foundations..
It is possible, but is not something I have seen any evidence for.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."
August wrote:
The Jewish race did not come about until Judah, in Gen 29. Before that there is an intermixing of cultures and bloodlines. Not really much relevance here, but it is a stretch to say that Adam, defined as the first man, is not the same first man from Gen 1.
I lean towards a spiritual creation, but that requires some Scriptural gymnastics too. Maybe we should focus more on when man actually became "made in God's image", as God is a spiritual being, not a physical being, who just manifested in human shape once.
Yes plenty to speculate.. Or you could go with the interpretation that the dates in the rocks are wrong as YEC does..
In some ways you could also say that the earth itself is millions of years old while man is 6 to 10 thousand years old too.. Therefore the rock is really old, where humans aren't.. And when you mix with the fossils with the dirt it makes everything look old..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
RickD wrote:The only thing I can come up with is that there were hominids that kept getting more physically human-like, until a point where the hominid was almost the same, or the same as modern humans. I mean physically. That would solve the problem of humans sinning before Adam. Not human(no soul and no concept of God and death) equals no sin. Just like any other animal. Then maybe God then created the first human, and breathed life into him(soul). All physical evidence of pre-Adam peoples would get to a point of being almost no different, or no different than modern humans. That would account for the findings of "people" that existed before the time Adam was assumed to be created. That would still leave a problem such as the Australian aborigines. They seem to be the same now as they were 40,000 years ago.
Thanks, august. You've got me thinking too much now.
The problem with this hypothesis is then how did the soul get into all those other pre-existing humans? Did God breath the soul into many, and not just Adam? But that puts paid to Adam being the single source of sin and the start of redemption in Christianity.
The other unspeakable alternative is that descendants of those pre-existing humans have no soul...not a viable alternative, methinks.
There had to be a moment in human history when one man came into existence, made in the image of God, who were to sin and lead to the need for a savior for all mankind.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."
August wrote:
The Jewish race did not come about until Judah, in Gen 29. Before that there is an intermixing of cultures and bloodlines. Not really much relevance here, but it is a stretch to say that Adam, defined as the first man, is not the same first man from Gen 1.
I lean towards a spiritual creation, but that requires some Scriptural gymnastics too. Maybe we should focus more on when man actually became "made in God's image", as God is a spiritual being, not a physical being, who just manifested in human shape once.
Yes plenty to speculate.. Or you could go with the interpretation that the dates in the rocks are wrong as YEC does..
In some ways you could also say that the earth itself is millions of years old while man is 6 to 10 thousand years old too.. Therefore the rock is really old, where humans aren't.. And when you mix with the fossils with the dirt it makes everything look old..
The issue with that is that once we start doubting one piece of evidence, then it becomes arbitrary and we pick what we want to believe as opposed what the evidence shows.
I am pretty convinced that there were some humans around at least 30k years ago, but quite possibly before that.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."
August wrote:
The issue with that is that once we start doubting one piece of evidence, then it becomes arbitrary and we pick what we want to believe as opposed what the evidence shows.
I am pretty convinced that there were some humans around at least 30k years ago, but quite possibly before that.
Yes.. Of course many scientists, under the cloak of evolution, are not labeling many skeletons were see today (50K) as modern humans but rather sub-species of humans.. In many cases primates..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Just tossing up ideas here.. Best guesses actually.
I'm not entirely sure myself..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
RickD wrote:The only thing I can come up with is that there were hominids that kept getting more physically human-like, until a point where the hominid was almost the same, or the same as modern humans. I mean physically. That would solve the problem of humans sinning before Adam. Not human(no soul and no concept of God and death) equals no sin. Just like any other animal. Then maybe God then created the first human, and breathed life into him(soul). All physical evidence of pre-Adam peoples would get to a point of being almost no different, or no different than modern humans. That would account for the findings of "people" that existed before the time Adam was assumed to be created. That would still leave a problem such as the Australian aborigines. They seem to be the same now as they were 40,000 years ago.
Thanks, august. You've got me thinking too much now.
The problem with this hypothesis is then how did the soul get into all those other pre-existing humans? Did God breath the soul into many, and not just Adam? But that puts paid to Adam being the single source of sin and the start of redemption in Christianity.
The other unspeakable alternative is that descendants of those pre-existing humans have no soul...not a viable alternative, methinks.
There had to be a moment in human history when one man came into existence, made in the image of God, who were to sin and lead to the need for a savior for all mankind.
The theory I proposed has Adam being the first "human" by virtue of his having a soul. The pre-existing hominids weren't human per se.(no soul). So, they didn't get a soul.(You want bread! No soul for you!) The preexisting "people" didn't have a soul, ever. Therefore, they didn't need redemption, because they couldn't sin. The soul, and being made in God's image is what separates us from any other being(however physically similar to us).
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
RickD wrote:
The theory I proposed has Adam being the first "human" by virtue of his having a soul. The pre-existing hominids weren't human per se.(no soul). So, they didn't get a soul.(You want bread! No soul for you!) The preexisting "people" didn't have a soul, ever. Therefore, they didn't need redemption, because they couldn't sin. The soul, and being made in God's image is what separates us from any other being(however physically similar to us).
Sounds like the grateful dead...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
