Some general questions about Calvinism.

[DannyM]

"Open-ended theology". Lol. Man certainly loves his labels. DannyM doesn't have a theology; DannyM is still working things out. August, I'll come back to you Monday, but it is worth mentioning that last night I had one of those revelationary moments while reading Eph 2:8. If I am now seeing what I think *you're* seeing, then I have some thinking to do. It's amazing: with the shackles off, the gospel just gets more and more powerful.

[puritan lad]

Prophecy does not force something to happen, but rather says it will happen. While God does not make choices for us, he does know what choices we will make. God is not closing himself off from the Antichrist by making this prophecy. God will offer salvation to the Antichrist, even though he knows that the Antichrist will reject him, and even though he knows what the Antichrist will do.

I don't see how that helps your delimma. Are we all agreed that Antichrist is (or was) predestined to Hell? If God hasn't predestined him, then what has? Can Antichrist be held responsible for something that he has no control over (assuming he hasn't been born yet)?

A related question. Could those who crucified Christ have chosen not to do so?

[Maytan]

Well, let's use Pharaoh for an example here. It says God 'hardened' his heart, not that he forced him to do as he did. Likewise, I don't think he forced those who crucified Jesus to do what they did, but knew that they would and used it for his grand scheme.

I mean, if you go so far as to say God controls each and every one of us, that makes us nothing more than puppets, no? And, if we're all just puppets, why make the Earth and all within it to begin with?

Being rather loose with my questions here, but I find that's usually the way to learn the most.

[puritan lad]

So, you think God makes plans contingent upon man's actions? He planned to have His Son die for our sins, but had to look ahead and find willing accomplices?

I haven't brought up Pharoah yet. (Coming soon). What will you do with this passage and many like it?

"The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed'-- for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." (Acts 4:26-28)

I would say that this causes an insurmountable problem for the prevailing view of predestination here.

[jlay]

Yes, natural man has a conscience. He shares in common grace. And yes, he can heed or deny it. But what is the status of the heeding or denial of the natural mans conscience before God? How does God regard the deeds of natural man? I don't understand the second part of the question, about the law. Can you expound, before I make a fool of myself and misrepresent you?

That depends. Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Not faith imparted to him, but his faith. Obviously God had given Abraham something to respond to. Paul says that in some degree God has given us all some evidence to respond to.
I assume you are referring to our righteous deed being filthy rags. The context of this verse doesn't apply to what we are discussing in responding in faith. God has revealed Himself to man. Indisputable fact of scripture as I'm sure you agree. It's pretty clear that many Calvinists including PL try to lump man's response to this calling as effort, work, or a filthy deed. I'm sorry August, but I just don't see how you can ultimately escape that reality. Maybe you need to take the points of Calvinism up with PL, not me.

You were the one that brought this up, so you answer it.

I did. Saying that the Calvinist needs to ask himself doesn't mean I didn't adress it in my post.

So God's will is subject to the actions of men. If God knows something, He knows it infallibly, yes? Is there any chance of it not happening? If God is not causing things to happen, what is? Since you seem dead set against God letting or making things happen, are you appealing to uncaused events, or fate as the causal agent?

Nope. God's will is permissive in the actions of men. This is just an old Calvinist tactic to try and force someone to impune the soveriegnty of God. Man either has some form of free will or it is determined. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say, "oh but we Calvinists do believe in free will, and then out of the other side of your mouth, argue that God is forcing all these wills to happen. If God knows something, we can't even begin to understand his ways of knowing those somethings. We are limited in our knowledge. God isn't.

Is there any chance of it not happening? If God is not causing things to happen, what is? Since you seem dead set against God letting or making things happen, are you appealing to uncaused events, or fate as the causal agent?

Well, when you sin, who is causing you to sin? Did you have a REAL choice in the matter? You either did have a real choice, or the choice was already set beforehand, which means you didn't really have a choice.
I am not dead set against God letting or making things happen. Where did you get that idea? I am just not in agreement with your definitions.You criticize my undertandings of Calvinism, but you would appear to have your own regarding my views. There is little doubt that these views exist under the banner of CAlvinism. And I can't help but see where you've built escape clauses, but then ultimately appear fall right back into the areas that I do criticize.

Do you love God before or after you are regenerate?

I guess it depends what you are defining as love. I still do things that are contrary to the love God has given to me. Biblical love in its simplest form is obedience. Rom 5:8 I guess one could view any positive response towards God's love of us, as love. Either way, God has always moved first in love.

I remember that. But you did not explain what makes you choose one door over the other. It boils down to cause or motive. Does God drag someone kicking and screaming into His kingdom? Of course not. It takes a response to the gospel call in the affirmative. Man must repent and believe with his own mind and heart to be saved.

Then you need to direct your conversation towards PL. Because you just said that it takes a response, and that man must do something out of his own volition. We would appear to agree here.

Yes, we are to turn to God, absolutely. But the basic question remains, are we able to turn to God without some kind of influence? Is the influence from within? Where does it come from?

No, we can not turn to God without God first acting. And He already has. God has equipped man with ears to hear, a mind to know, senses, a heart, conscience and senses. That is not the argument. PL and other Calvinists are arguing that faith itself (not just the capacity for it) is preprogrammed, and you either have it, or you don't. The response that you are talking about is a CERTAIN response, not one left up for question. The elect WILL respond, the reprobate will NOT. Not a matter of man yielding his heart. God can call the reprobate and he is hopeless to hear, no matter how much of God he sees.

So jlay, are you able to, out of your own volition, without having heard the Gospel, or seeing or experiencing the beauty of creation, or having any concept of God, able to love God and turn to Him?

No. I've already said, we can't love God unless He loved us first. And the bible says He already has. Done, finished. God isn't waiting to love us.

No, it is not, unless you believe in uncaused events. Everything that happens has a cause, no? God is the only uncaused cause, or do you not believe that?

Sure, so then why not ask, 'What caused you to believe?' I bet you money that you'll testimonies of varying degree.
It's a very subtle but important difference. Ultimately one view sees God making people to believe and making people to not believe (reprobate).

You will not get any argument from me that man can not have faith apart from God. Only in the details of how that faith manifest itself in the beleiver.

[puritan lad]

A response is just that, a response. Man has no part to play in the cause of his justification.

[B. W.]

Hi Maytan

Your answers are on the mark and from these you can begin to wrestle with God a bit more to uncover things. I will post a some more but the main things to build off of is that God speaks his word and from that it creates a choice to be made when before there wasn't any options. This kind of choice is not man’s creation but God’s and once you see this, one can move way beyond where both Calvinism and Arminianism leaves people hanging.

You will end up seeing glimpses of how Majestic and Beautiful the Lord is to his own nature and character in all things He does and how ture is John 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14c – notice verses 4 and 9 and 12 and 13. Born by the will of God – His will was to send His word which creates choice to receive or not into all the world. In this, there is NO injustice with God.

Maytan, do you have any more questions?
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[jlay]

A response is just that, a response. Man has no part to play in the cause of his justification.

Agreed. Man has no part to play in the CAUSE of his justification. Is that really what is up for discussion? It is the part man plays in receiving his justification that is at odds.

[Maytan]

So, you think God makes plans contingent upon man's actions? He planned to have His Son die for our sins, but had to look ahead and find willing accomplices?

I haven't brought up Pharoah yet. (Coming soon). What will you do with this passage and many like it?

"The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed'-- for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." (Acts 4:26-28)

I would say that this causes an insurmountable problem for the prevailing view of predestination here.

This is why I said I agree with that Got Questions article. There's numerous verses referring to choice, and likewise for predestination as well. That's why I can't come to terms with anything. The Bible makes it clear that we have a choice to make, and it also makes it clear that predestination does occur. Quite frankly, trying to figure it out does nothing but make me more confused.

To answer your question, though, I don't think God is dependent upon man's actions; but at the same time human's do make choices. Integrating these two points is something I'm beginning to realize is very hard to do. Hence, I don't know where I stand on this subject. The best explanation I can come up with is predestined choice. That we do make a choice, but our decision is predestined. That's kind of a paradox, huh? That's why I have trouble trying to understand it.

Hi Maytan

Your answers are on the mark and from these you can begin to wrestle with God a bit more to uncover things. I will post a some more but the main things to build off of is that God speaks his word and from that it creates a choice to be made when before there wasn't any options. This kind of choice is not man’s creation but God’s and once you see this, one can move way beyond where both Calvinism and Arminianism leaves people hanging.

You will end up seeing glimpses of how Majestic and Beautiful the Lord is to his own nature and character in all things He does and how ture is John 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14c – notice verses 4 and 9 and 12 and 13. Born by the will of God – His will was to send His word which creates choice to receive or not into all the world. In this, there is NO injustice with God.

Maytan, do you have any more questions?
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Once again, I really appreciate your time. I don't think I have any more questions, for the time being. I think I've come to the conclusion here (thanks to your help), that God made the ability of choice for us. Predestination fits in there, but that (as I said up above) becomes a bit difficult to comprehend.

I'll continue to think on the matter, but I feel quite a bit more at rest now.

[B. W.]

....Once again, I really appreciate your time. I don't think I have any more questions, for the time being. I think I've come to the conclusion here (thanks to your help), that God made the ability of choice for us. Predestination fits in there, but that (as I said up above) becomes a bit difficult to comprehend. I'll continue to think on the matter, but I feel quite a bit more at rest now.

Hi Maytan,

You are making good progress and trying to figure out things but moving into predestination as described by Calvinism and Arminianism will leave you confused. Hate to say it, but both sides limit the definition of predestination to fit their own terms and both leave behind looking at this from God's perspective.

So to gain a better understanding of predestination, let’s build off where we left off and let me ask two more questions:

Could God foreknow everything before anything ever was?

Again lay aside Calvinism and Arminianism reasoning on this as a person won’t get to far if they do. Just read the other posts to see what I mean. Good points in both, but nothing is ever settled.

From your answer to last question add this question:

With such knowledge as God already has, then could he know the final result that that His word (which created the choice) will have on everyone before any were ever born?

Hint: Greek word translated predestination is a compound of two Greek words – it involves a “decree”…
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[Canuckster1127]

Beware any doctrinal system, Calvinist, Arminianism or any other that represents itself as having all the questions answered and which by itself is "Biblical" as opposed to all others. There are mysteries and there are matters of perspective depending upon the Biblical passage (or passages) in terms of context, audience and purpose (to name just a few) that in places are not completely reconcilable by or within the full context of human logic. The transcendence of God demands that that be true. That doesn't mean that it's not worth the effort. It always amazed me though, the lack of humility and the outright hubris (speaking in general, not toward any individuals on this thread or board) of any who believe that they have figured everything out to the point that they no longer have to listen or interact with other people, instead just leaping to their preprogrammed responses for any and all questions. I did that for years and I'm still prone to it at times now. In the end, our faith must be in God and not primarily our doctrinal systems and dogma. The latter are important, but have to remain in perspective or in the end we're in danger of making a God of our own understanding.

[Byblos]

A response is just that, a response. Man has no part to play in the cause of his justification.

A passive cooperation to an active grace through faith, that's how I see it.

[Telstra Robs]

Prophecy does not force something to happen, but rather says it will happen. While God does not make choices for us, he does know what choices we will make. God is not closing himself off from the Antichrist by making this prophecy. God will offer salvation to the Antichrist, even though he knows that the Antichrist will reject him, and even though he knows what the Antichrist will do.

I don't see how that helps your delimma. Are we all agreed that Antichrist is (or was) predestined to Hell? If God hasn't predestined him, then what has? Can Antichrist be held responsible for something that he has no control over (assuming he hasn't been born yet)?

A related question. Could those who crucified Christ have chosen not to do so?

What I was trying to say was that God did not say "I will make this person called the Antichrist, he will do this, this, this and this." Instead, he said "There is this person called the Antichrist, he will choose to do this, this, this and this. I can see that he will do these things." He will be destined for Hell because he will choose to be the Antichrist. God has seen that he will, but not chosen that path for him. It is the choices that he will make, not what God will make him do, for God cannot force him to do evil.

Yes. God did not force them to kill Jesus, for once again, that would be God forcing man to do evil. Instead, God knew what they would do to Jesus when he went down.

I have a question for you. Solomon talked to God (1 Kings 3:5-15). Yet in the end, Solomon had turned away from God, having many hundreds of wives who turned him to false Gods (1 Kings 11:9-13). What happened to Solomon? Was he predestined never to be saved? If so, why did God talk to him many times? If not, how could someone be saved if they followed many false Idols and built temples for them?

[puritan lad]

A response is just that, a response. Man has no part to play in the cause of his justification.

Agreed. Man has no part to play in the CAUSE of his justification. Is that really what is up for discussion? It is the part man plays in receiving his justification that is at odds.

It is actually deeper than that. Justification is not dependent on man "receiving" it. When God justifies, he justifies. Now man will respond in a certain way, but he doesn't "receive" justification as much as it is declared about him. When a judge declares someone "not guilty", he is justified.

He will be destined for Hell because he will choose to be the Antichrist. God has seen that he will, but not chosen that path for him.

But does he have the option of choosing otherwise?

He will be destined for Hell because he will choose to be the Antichrist. God has seen that he will, but not chosen that path for him.

God does not "force" man to do evil. He doesn't have to. Man has enough evil in his own heart to preform all of the evil that God ordains. (Now we can discuss God as the primary cause of evil (Isaiah 45:7), but that will certain grate against some sensibilities. God does decree and sovereignly work in the sinful acts of wicked men, who serve God's ultimate purpose to glorify Himself.

Yes. God did not force them to kill Jesus, for once again, that would be God forcing man to do evil. Instead, God knew what they would do to Jesus when he went down.

But God did predestine and sovereingly work out this wicked act. God is not "hands off" concerning evil, but uses the evil he creates for good.

I have a question for you. Solomon talked to God (1 Kings 3:5-15). Yet in the end, Solomon had turned away from God, having many hundreds of wives who turned him to false Gods (1 Kings 11:9-13). What happened to Solomon? Was he predestined never to be saved? If so, why did God talk to him many times? If not, how could someone be saved if they followed many false Idols and built temples for them?

Solomon was saved, though he, like David, fell into great sin. Yes, saved people do fall into terrible sin, but God ensures that they will never fall away completely.

[Maytan]

Hi Maytan,

You are making good progress and trying to figure out things but moving into predestination as described by Calvinism and Arminianism will leave you confused. Hate to say it, but both sides limit the definition of predestination to fit their own terms and both leave behind looking at this from God's perspective.

So to gain a better understanding of predestination, let’s build off where we left off and let me ask two more questions:

Could God foreknow everything before anything ever was?

Again lay aside Calvinism and Arminianism reasoning on this as a person won’t get to far if they do. Just read the other posts to see what I mean. Good points in both, but nothing is ever settled.

I believe so.

From your answer to last question add this question:

With such knowledge as God already has, then could he know the final result that that His word (which created the choice) will have on everyone before any were ever born?

Hint: Greek word translated predestination is a compound of two Greek words – it involves a “decree”…
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Once again, I believe he could.