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RickD wrote:Bart, could you explain what you mean here in layman's terms, so I can understand?
The "you" here is plural and it's addressed to the good work He is doing in them all collectively, as a body. It has nothing to do with attempting to make a statement of mechanical soteriology on an individual level.
Thanks
Sorry Rick, Old habits are hard to break. The context of the passage is that Paul and Timothy are sending greetings to a local church and addressing them collectively. When he talks about the good work God is completing in them, he's talking about the whole body of believers there and the overall work that is taking place. It's a greeting, not unlike you or me writing a letter and saying "It's wonderful that God is doing so much in your midst and I'm sure He's going to continue to do so much more."
So trying to isolate just one verse from that and on that basis saying that this is talking about salvation (which it is not, it's talking about body life for the saints or church) is a real stretch and it stretched even further when you take that "you" and apply it to an individual upon which to make an argument for any tenet of calvinism as it relates to how people are saved.
It sounds nice and makes for a good snippet of scripture that people then take and personalize, but doing so has nothing to do with the context it originally came from.
It's a actually a pretty good example of what I've said in other areas about systematic theology taking verses, isolating them and then taking thoughts from portions of unrelated scripture and building a thought logically that you can't find independently in any single passage of Scripture.
I hope that is clearer.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
So, are you saying the way I read the verse is also out of context, and therefore incorrect?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
We might say that there are two main views concerning predestination. One is the view that God has foreknowledge; that is, he knew who would choose Him and those are the ones He predestined to salvation. The other idea is held by Calvinists who believe God sovereignly, of His own free will, predestined certain people to be saved, and His choice is not based upon looking into the future to see who would pick Him.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
RickD, I'm probably a stickler on these things because of my training, but yes, I think taking that verse and applying it personally as a promise or assurance from God to us personally is taking it out of context and misapplying it. That said, I don't necessarily think that the sentiment is out of keeping with other passages of Scripture that speak of God's care and work in us. I'm far more comfortable with someone taking it as a general assurance of God's care and love than I am with using it to prooftext a doctrine such as predestination.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
Canuckster1127 wrote:RickD, I'm probably a stickler on these things because of my training, but yes, I think taking that verse and applying it personally as a promise or assurance from God to us personally is taking it out of context and misapplying it. That said, I don't necessarily think that the sentiment is out of keeping with other passages of Scripture that speak of God's care and work in us. I'm far more comfortable with someone taking it as a general assurance of God's care and love than I am with using it to prooftext a doctrine such as predestination.
Thanks Bart. I guess that's how I take the verse. Kinda as a verse that backs my belief that I can't be good, and do anything to work for my salvation on my own power. Not as a stand alone verse to prove what I believe. I'm concerned about taking verses on their own out of context. My great-grandmother used to use mizpah (Genesis 31:49)as a greeting to everyone. I found out later, that in its context, it's actually more of a curse.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Here's something: If God predestined everything and He is loving and would want everyone to be saved, then wouldn't He predestine everyone to earn salvation? After all, God hates sin, so how could He essentially make people do it? Wouldn't that be inconsistent with His nature - that is, impossible for Him? Calvinism is necessarily inconsistent with Gods nature according to the Bible.
The first step to learning is to admit that you don't know.
