I consider myself a sceptic Christian because I have too many problems with Christianity, and all orginized religion in fact. Here is one of my several questions and hesitations over Christianity:
My best friend is one of the most amazing, kind, humane people I know. She volunteers, is vegetarian, cares for the earth, is kind to everyone, helps the needy and sees the good in everyone. She rejects no one, judges no one, and is simply benevolent and inspirational. I look to her as a role model for how I should lead my life. And, if I were to meet her on the street, and learn what kind of person she is, I would assume she was a Christian, based simply on her actions.
However, she is also atheist.
Here is where my problem arises: How can good people, who in essence follow Christian ethics, morals and teachings be condemned to eternal damnation simply because they don't believe in a God, because they believe in the wrong God, or because they have tried but simply cannot sincerely embrace God???
How can a man like Ghandi, my friend Lea and all of the millions of good Hindus, pious Buddhists, and kind Muslims be condemed to hell simply because they were never exposed to God and Jesus, were raised a different religion, or tried to embrace the spirit of God but simply couldn't???
This is where I find myself diverting from the Bible. I personally don't see God as an irrational bearded man on a cloud, stubbornly telling Ghandi,"You were an amazing man, martyr for peace, who promoted the fundamental ideas of my bible, promoted world peace and were a kind, spiritual man, but because you didn't embrace MY religion--- you go to hell." Something seems wrong.
Another example that causes me to question is my uncle who is a die-hard fundamentalist Christian. He "repents" and preaches the word of God and believes in God and Jesus full heartedly. However, he is the biggest hypocrite I know. He has had numerous affairs, beaten my cousins and is simply foul man. But he follows your definition as a Christian...
I fail to believe that a man like my Uncle, who commits heinous sins but is supposedly forgiven because he repents has more of an "in" at going to heaven than someone like Leah, who lives like Mother Teresa, simply because he believes in Jesus and she doesn't...
I feel like Christian fundamentalists (those I know and have heard of, and read in this forum) value details, quotations, names, stories and acceptance of all of these trivial bible tid bits more than they value the actually lifestyle an individual practices.
Counterarguments, explanation???
Ghandi wasn't Christian, but he sure beats Uncle Bobby...
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voicingmaster
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Welcome elleeise.
You kinda misunderstand the reason for God sending people to the bad place. We have all sinned, each and every one of us. Sin can't enter heaven, so when we a non-believer died, they have those sins on them, and thus have to be destroyed(hell). No amount of good deeds can save you from these sins(I'll explain trhis later). However, there is one way, and only one way to get those sins of of your record and into heaven. I'm of course talking of believing on Jesus Christ. Once one truly has accepted Christ and has the Holy Spirit with him, then they would try to sin as least often as they can. This salvation however, doesn't mean that we can sin all we want and not give a hoot about trying to improve. If one has this kinda attitude, then they haven't received the Holy Spirit, and thus aren't saved, and thus are in the same boat as a non-believer. Every person has until the day the they die to come to God and repent and become saved. Which brings up your Uncle. He obviously is not truly repentant, and Jesus spoke against people of his kind.
Back on the "no amount of good deeds can save you". Think of it like this. You commit several crimes against your government. You do a lot of volunteer work and helping out the government. But, does that make you any less guilty? No, you have still commited the crimes and thus you should be submitted to justice. Same thing with sinning and God. No amount of good deeds will mean you are any less guilty of those sins you have committed.
You kinda misunderstand the reason for God sending people to the bad place. We have all sinned, each and every one of us. Sin can't enter heaven, so when we a non-believer died, they have those sins on them, and thus have to be destroyed(hell). No amount of good deeds can save you from these sins(I'll explain trhis later). However, there is one way, and only one way to get those sins of of your record and into heaven. I'm of course talking of believing on Jesus Christ. Once one truly has accepted Christ and has the Holy Spirit with him, then they would try to sin as least often as they can. This salvation however, doesn't mean that we can sin all we want and not give a hoot about trying to improve. If one has this kinda attitude, then they haven't received the Holy Spirit, and thus aren't saved, and thus are in the same boat as a non-believer. Every person has until the day the they die to come to God and repent and become saved. Which brings up your Uncle. He obviously is not truly repentant, and Jesus spoke against people of his kind.
Back on the "no amount of good deeds can save you". Think of it like this. You commit several crimes against your government. You do a lot of volunteer work and helping out the government. But, does that make you any less guilty? No, you have still commited the crimes and thus you should be submitted to justice. Same thing with sinning and God. No amount of good deeds will mean you are any less guilty of those sins you have committed.
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Anonymous
Elleeise,
I can't tell you how much I agree with you...I have raised a very similar question in a topic called "Faith, the absolute virtue?", and , as you will see, the answers are not very satisfying morally-wise (and that's a shame...)...But it's really funny how people can find inspiration in such a crooked concept, I guess it makes them feel better, faith, the Christian view of salvation, makes it ok to do pretty much anything wrong on this planet as long as you ask for forgiveness...Pretty easy, huh?? That's what I heard...Unless you try thinking a little bit for yourself instead of relying on a 2000 yrs old document with questionnable sources and straight up false statements, and then you understand that NO, not all sins are equal, so NO they should not all lead to hell...But such a belief is a perfect tool for mass manipulation of the weaker-minded, who will submit and worship their whole lives for their own sakes, for their place in heaven...But we are certainly both wrong Elleeise, as thinking and trying to figure out WHY are defenitely not virtues according to the bible, when blindly believing is the greatest of them...
I can't tell you how much I agree with you...I have raised a very similar question in a topic called "Faith, the absolute virtue?", and , as you will see, the answers are not very satisfying morally-wise (and that's a shame...)...But it's really funny how people can find inspiration in such a crooked concept, I guess it makes them feel better, faith, the Christian view of salvation, makes it ok to do pretty much anything wrong on this planet as long as you ask for forgiveness...Pretty easy, huh?? That's what I heard...Unless you try thinking a little bit for yourself instead of relying on a 2000 yrs old document with questionnable sources and straight up false statements, and then you understand that NO, not all sins are equal, so NO they should not all lead to hell...But such a belief is a perfect tool for mass manipulation of the weaker-minded, who will submit and worship their whole lives for their own sakes, for their place in heaven...But we are certainly both wrong Elleeise, as thinking and trying to figure out WHY are defenitely not virtues according to the bible, when blindly believing is the greatest of them...
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voicingmaster
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As I explained, you can't just do whatever you want, believe, and still get to heaven.Lyouki wrote:Elleeise,
I can't tell you how much I agree with you...I have raised a very similar question in a topic called "Faith, the absolute virtue?", and , as you will see, the answers are not very satisfying morally-wise (and that's a shame...)...But it's really funny how people can find inspiration in such a crooked concept, I guess it makes them feel better, faith, the Christian view of salvation, makes it ok to do pretty much anything wrong on this planet as long as you ask for forgiveness...Pretty easy, huh?? That's what I heard...Unless you try thinking a little bit for yourself instead of relying on a 2000 yrs old document with questionnable sources and straight up false statements, and then you understand that NO, not all sins are equal, so NO they should not all lead to hell...But such a belief is a perfect tool for mass manipulation of the weaker-minded, who will submit and worship their whole lives for their own sakes, for their place in heaven...But we are certainly both wrong Elleeise, as thinking and trying to figure out WHY are defenitely not virtues according to the bible, when blindly believing is the greatest of them...
EDIT:Sorry, typo, there should've been a can't in there, it's fixed now.
Last edited by voicingmaster on Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kurieuo
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For each person you choose to view as good, place them beside God who is entirely holy and good. If you believe there are some perfectly good and without sin, then the Bible appears clear that such can be in God's presence. However, are there really any such people?
Kurieuo.
Kurieuo.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
Hi Lyouki,Lyouki wrote:Elleeise,
the Christian view of salvation, makes it ok to do pretty much anything wrong on this planet as long as you ask for forgiveness...relying on a 2000 yrs old document with false statements, ...But is a perfect tool for mass manipulation of the weaker-minded, who will submit and worship their whole lives for their own sakes, ....
I once shared the same view as u did. Christian are weak minded & needed something to rely on for comfort in times of difficulties or in times of unknown. I too question the Bible concept of morality as well as challenge some "absurd" story like a worldwide flood & the age of human in Genesis account.
However all that changed after I understand/realise the existence of God. It wasn't an immediate change but a slow process of discovering the truth.
To answer your statement in particular to the above.
1) What you've is a wrong concept of forgiveness & repentance. The bible does tell believers that forgiveness is not a license to sin. A true believer (not just anyone who profess to be one) would not continue in blatant sin just because they are "saved".
Christianity is more than meeting a set of criteria. It's a relationship. No one can call God, Father unless the relationship is there & once there, the love from God & to God would naturally change the sin nature of that person. There's a difference between taking Christ as a Savior vs taking Him as Lord & God. I don't believe that people who thinks that they can sin all they want & hope their slate be wipe clean at latter time when they want to claim the ticket to heaven, would really be saved...just by merely claiming the savior part. No one would receive the ticket unless he genuinely is repentant & want God to take control of his life.
2) That leads to the point of living life for their own sakes. Again when a person truly realise the gravity of their sin & the love of God...this will begin in them a path to live a life for God & for others. It's a long & hard journey of self-denial.
3) That brings to the next point of weak-mindedness. Take a look at the life of Jesus & apostles. Would anyone really consider them to be weak-minded for their willingness to go thru all suffering & martyldom? Similarly, to be really a "great" Christian who live a life wholly for Christ takes a lot of resolve & struggle. But with it comes peace & inner joy...even in the midst of life difficulties.
4) Finally, as one began to be diligent in the studies of the bible as well as Science, history, archeology...one would slowly realise that what was written in the bible are truly amazing words of truth & wisdom.
I believe a close scrutiny of many evidences as brought up in this website have attested to this fact. One by one, all my past doubts about the "fairy tales" in the bible are removed as I grow.
To me ultimately, one has to answer 3 Questions in life
1) Is there a God out there or am I a product of chance (evolution) which really requires more faith base on the statistic of improbability.
2) Who is this God. Allah? Collective conscious? Vishnu? Tao? or the Triune God?
3) What am I going to do about it?
Always remember...Christianity is not just simply a religion, but a relation between Father & son. Use that analogy to re-look at the issue of sin, obedience, conformance & the questions about forgiveness & righteous living would be answered.
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Anonymous
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Prodigal Son
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your friend is one in a zillion, 
i never met anyone who hasn't judged someone else. you probably don't know her as well as you think...she most likely doesn't know herself as well as she thinks. i also know plenty of people who "pass" as saints and are just the opposite.
uncle bobby...he's lying to everyone and probably to himself. anyone can lie about anything, doesnt' mean it's true. maybe he really believes he's committed to God. someone should tell him he's not.
still, if your friend is as good as you think, God will know. he won't let her perish.
sorry you're going to hell. i'm sure it's going to suck!
p.s. ghandi actually held Jesus in very high esteem.
i never met anyone who hasn't judged someone else. you probably don't know her as well as you think...she most likely doesn't know herself as well as she thinks. i also know plenty of people who "pass" as saints and are just the opposite. uncle bobby...he's lying to everyone and probably to himself. anyone can lie about anything, doesnt' mean it's true. maybe he really believes he's committed to God. someone should tell him he's not.
still, if your friend is as good as you think, God will know. he won't let her perish.
sorry you're going to hell. i'm sure it's going to suck!
p.s. ghandi actually held Jesus in very high esteem.
New Creation
2 Corinthians 5:7
2 Corinthians 5:7
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AttentionKMartShoppers
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Sincerity doesn't make right. Hitler was sincere when he ordered the deaths of millions of jews. Sincere non-Christians go to hell because they did not submit to the only God.
If you break school rules, you don't decide how you'll serve your punishment. The school does. If you go against God's will (which you will probably millions of times in a lifetime...me maybe a million and one...), it's exceedingly arrogant to think that you can tell God, "wo wo wo, I broke the rules, but I'm telling YOU that I don't need to go to hell, I deserve heaven."
If you break school rules, you don't decide how you'll serve your punishment. The school does. If you go against God's will (which you will probably millions of times in a lifetime...me maybe a million and one...), it's exceedingly arrogant to think that you can tell God, "wo wo wo, I broke the rules, but I'm telling YOU that I don't need to go to hell, I deserve heaven."
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."
He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin
-Winston Churchill
An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.
You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous
He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin
-Winston Churchill
An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.
You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous
Perhaps another way to look at it....like as in a Father & Child relation...
A parent would leave his inheritance to his child, born or adopted. He may give a great portion of it (or whole) to charity, but it's pretty unlikely that he will give it to someone whom he thinks behave better (or much) than his son...& I don't mean a son that have rejected/disown his Father legally or behavior-ly analogous to one could not be a Christian if he have not receive Christ or his life is not testifying of the fact (show me thy works & I my faith).
The above is still not the perfect answer as the question of fairness is still there, but that's probably synonymous to our relationship with God, with his presence & his kingdom our inheritance.
A parent would leave his inheritance to his child, born or adopted. He may give a great portion of it (or whole) to charity, but it's pretty unlikely that he will give it to someone whom he thinks behave better (or much) than his son...& I don't mean a son that have rejected/disown his Father legally or behavior-ly analogous to one could not be a Christian if he have not receive Christ or his life is not testifying of the fact (show me thy works & I my faith).
The above is still not the perfect answer as the question of fairness is still there, but that's probably synonymous to our relationship with God, with his presence & his kingdom our inheritance.