Man's free will and God's will

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Alpha~Omega
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Man's free will and God's will

Post by Alpha~Omega »

Hi.

Ive recently been thinking about how, through our free will, God gets his will done. There are several instances in the bible in which God says he "sends" or "provides" certain people to do his will (think of judges, when God would provide a judge to save the israelites, or have them conquered because of the evil they had done). Now what i am wondering is, if we have absolute free will, how can God influence people to get his will done, while still have them retain there free will?

Biblical references:

Judges 4:2 - "And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor; and the commander of his army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth-hagoyim."

Judges 2:16 - "Then the LORD raised up judges who delivered them from the hands of those who plundered them."

It is also mentioned, i think in the new testament, that God can work through good and evil to acheive his will. I cant find the passage.

Thanks. God bless :mrgreen:
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

Post by B. W. »

The answer is that God is All Powerful enough to work thru Human free will, around free will, and by human free will.

If God fails in doing any of these, how can he really be All Powerful?

In the bible, we see the Lord doing all these in his dealings with humanity.
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

Post by J.Davis »

Hi Alpha~Omega!

It’s really no different then the methods we use to persuade each other.

Just to add to what B.W said…Here is an example.

Say you have a son that does not want to go to school because it’s boring and he wants to stay home and play video games. So to get him to go to school you talk to him in a strong tone and say, if you don’t get dressed and go to school right now (he normally walks), you won’t have any video games to play with. But he challenges your threat and says that he will just go to Tim’s house and play games. So you take all of his games and then say to him, by the way, you’re grounded so no going over Tim’s house or having him come over for two weeks, and for everyday you do not go to school you will be grounded for a day. Then he tells you that he’s never going to school and he hates you. At this point you have had enough so you grab him and put his clothes on him (son is kicking and screaming), pick him up, throw him in the car, drive him to school and take him to his class.

Now your son is at school but he still does not want to be at school and he still wants to be at home playing video games. You have not interfered with his will (his desire to stay home and play video games or his decision that he will not go to school ). You simply took away privileges and put him in situations that he was not able to resist due to the fact that you are stronger, smarter and control many of the resources he enjoys.

But in no case did you change his decisions or will, he did not go to school, you took him there. And the child could still leave school if he wants to…But he might stay, because he knows that you will make his life a living hell if he does not obey you. :)

It’s for his own good after all….

Who can fight God (and win)? Even if we throw a fit and hold our breath to resist His will in an attempt to threaten Him with the loss of our life and hindrance to his plan.. He will just say, what are you doing, you don’t need air to live. Then we might find ourselves in the belly of a big smelly fish…And no one wants that.
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

Post by Alpha~Omega »

Aha! I see now, thank you two for this insight. I had been pondering this question for days and decided to come and ask some of the real good thinkers, thanks alot! I really like your comparison J Davis, thanks for taking the time to help me out you guys!


God Bless :D
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

Post by Canuckster1127 »

God's sovereignty and man having a free will is only mutually exclusive to the degree that God doesn't allow or work through Man's decisions. God's foreknowledge of what a man will decide and do and then His weaving and working of His own ends and purposes within that context doesn't negate His Sovereignty. If God is sovereign, He is also able to choose not to assert His will over the choices that any particular person will make while accomplishing His higher level purposes.

Most of the context of this entire line of discussion comes from Greek Philosophy and contains elements of Stoicism and Determinism. While it appears to me in the NT that there are allusions to these issues mostly in Paul's epistles which were to gentiles more versed and concerned with them, many of these questions are somewhat foreign to an eastern or Hebraic worldview. Often, what I think happens is that Biblical terms are taken but they are defined in line with the philosophical, theological tenets of the position being taken. That doesn't make everything that comes out from that position invalid or wrong. I think it's something to be aware of however and because of that I try to approach the Scriptures as long term narratives and follow the progression of the passages themselves rather than prooftexting and building conclusions from multiple short passages or verses, many time of which the context is severely strained to support the chosen position.
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

Post by BavarianWheels »

J.Davis wrote:Hi Alpha~Omega!

It’s really no different then the methods we use to persuade each other.

Just to add to what B.W said…Here is an example.

Say you have a son that does not want to go to school because it’s boring and he wants to stay home and play video games. So to get him to go to school you talk to him in a strong tone and say, if you don’t get dressed and go to school right now (he normally walks), you won’t have any video games to play with. But he challenges your threat and says that he will just go to Tim’s house and play games. So you take all of his games and then say to him, by the way, you’re grounded so no going over Tim’s house or having him come over for two weeks, and for everyday you do not go to school you will be grounded for a day. Then he tells you that he’s never going to school and he hates you. At this point you have had enough so you grab him and put his clothes on him (son is kicking and screaming), pick him up, throw him in the car, drive him to school and take him to his class.

Now your son is at school but he still does not want to be at school and he still wants to be at home playing video games. You have not interfered with his will (his desire to stay home and play video games or his decision that he will not go to school ). You simply took away privileges and put him in situations that he was not able to resist due to the fact that you are stronger, smarter and control many of the resources he enjoys.

But in no case did you change his decisions or will, he did not go to school, you took him there. And the child could still leave school if he wants to…But he might stay, because he knows that you will make his life a living hell if he does not obey you. :)

It’s for his own good after all….

Who can fight God (and win)? Even if we throw a fit and hold our breath to resist His will in an attempt to threaten Him with the loss of our life and hindrance to his plan.. He will just say, what are you doing, you don’t need air to live. Then we might find ourselves in the belly of a big smelly fish…And no one wants that.
I disagree with this reasoning somewhat, if not totally. This suggests (as I see it) that God forces someone to do something against their will...that the prophets were forced to take God's word and didn't really like it nor did they believe it.

On the contrary, I believe that God, being all powerful, is able to see who will do His will and knowing so, then directs their path to His will. He opens doors knowing the their hearts will follow Him.

I'm open to being challenged and corrected though as I see already Jonah may go somewhat against my point. :)
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

Post by J.Davis »

Hey Wheels!

Yes, Jonah is one example but so is Moses (who did not want to do what God said at first but God persuaded him) and the Egyptian Pharaoh, many others in the bible and even you and I wheels.

Understand what I am saying here. I am sure you will agree that God holds the right to do whatever He wants whenever He wants but He limits Himself in certain cases (such as reprogramming our decisions or desires so that we will carry out His whishes).

What I said above concerning this matter- along with my big smelly fish comment (which was a way to condense an idea using a popular story) was not to be taken the way you are suggesting. The story concerning the way God dealt with Jonah, in part, serves as an example (just as much of the old testament) of the way things work from a spiritual, moral etc point of view. God did not go around commanding Big fish to swallow people. But He does command His children (tell them/ask them) to do things or interact with those who are not His children so that they will persuade one of His stubborn rebellious children to consider His wishes and carry them out on His behalf. In this case, man can become what the big fish represents, God’s ability to carry out His will, regardless of resistance. It also shows that our stubbornness may cause us to windup in uncomfortable situations.

We don’t have to have a stable income, protection from Satan and his forces, a nice place to live, good food to eat, clean water etc, etc and etc. Those things are privileges and God is clear that he will do whatever he wants with what he owns on this earth and none of that interferes with our will, but it will make us uncomfortable (like being in a big smelly fish). You want to be disobedient and rebellious, fine, but you will not disrespect me while taking advantage of the comfortable life I gave you, that is basically how we treat our children and it is for their good, no one can accuse God of not being a good parent, and adult children can be very, Very stubborn.

In short, God can ask someone to talk to one of his rebellious children. Or if one of God’s rebellious children is going to an event for enjoyment instead of doing what He asked, God can work so that another one of His children, that happen to be going to the same event, get there right before the rebellious child so he can see that that guy got the last ticket and the event is now sold out. Or God can remove His hedge of protection and Satan and his crew will do what comes natural to them concerning God’s children, (in this case, asking God for help would be ideal). God can control the whether, all elements on earth, resources etc (<all of the things in this paragraph can become big smelly fish) and not one drop of it is interfering with a persons will (reprogramming one’s decisions so they will do what God ask of them).

But one might decide on their own that it’s better not to be without the blessings of God (and if you are alive then you have access to God’s blessings so no excuses). But even if God physically came down, picked up one of His humans and put them in a different place, even if the human did not want to be there, God would not be doing anything He said He would not do. We do the same with our children, God breaks no laws concerning this matter. And I am not being unbiblical, if you think so show me, but it’s likely that your interpretation of the scripture is not the same as the one I will give and the one I will give will not contradict God‘s word.

God only restricts Himself from reprogramming us to do what He ask (altering our decisions on His own), but God hindering our actions or interacting with other humans and resources is not the same as reprogramming our decisions.
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

Post by BavarianWheels »

J.Davis wrote:Yes, Jonah is one example but so is Moses (who did not want to do what God said at first but God persuaded him) and the Egyptian Pharaoh, many others in the bible and even you and I wheels.
I'm not sure I would lump Moses and Pharaoh in the same with Jonah. Moses did not necessarily change his mind, Moses didn't think he COULD be God's voice...so God presented him with his brother to help him. Pharaoh on the other hand, his mind was not hardened by God as in God actually put it in Pharaoh's mind to go against Him, rather Pharaoh's heart was hardened against God of his own freewill. So the saying, "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is accurate, but only in the sense that Pharaoh was against God and not that God physically caused Pharaoh to choose what he would've normally chosen.
J.Davis wrote:Understand what I am saying here. I am sure you will agree that God holds the right to do whatever He wants whenever He wants but He limits Himself in certain cases (such as reprogramming our decisions or desires so that we will carry out His whishes).
I'm trying to understand...but it still seems I disagree more than I agree.
J.Davis wrote:What I said above concerning this matter- along with my big smelly fish comment (which was a way to condense an idea using a popular story) was not to be taken the way you are suggesting. The story concerning the way God dealt with Jonah, in part, serves as an example (just as much of the old testament) of the way things work from a spiritual, moral etc point of view. God did not go around commanding Big fish to swallow people. But He does command His children (tell them/ask them) to do things or interact with those who are not His children so that they will persuade one of His stubborn rebellious children to consider His wishes and carry them out on His behalf. In this case, man can become what the big fish represents, God’s ability to carry out His will, regardless of resistance. It also shows that our stubbornness may cause us to windup in uncomfortable situations.
It still sounds to me like you're saying Jonah was against going to Nineveh. I don't see it like that. I see it as Jonah thought it was useless to go to Nineveh and thought he knew best, but God causing a fish to swallow him up for a few days, changed his mind and knew God knew better than he did. So Jonah wasn't against going or spreading God's word, he figured God was gracious enough to do without him going. Jonah seems to have been angry that his prophetic words did not come pass. It seems Jonah wanted to see Nineveh destroyed.
J.Davis wrote:We don’t have to have a stable income, protection from Satan and his forces, a nice place to live, good food to eat, clean water etc, etc and etc. Those things are privileges and God is clear that he will do whatever he wants with what he owns on this earth and none of that interferes with our will, but it will make us uncomfortable (like being in a big smelly fish). You want to be disobedient and rebellious, fine, but you will not disrespect me while taking advantage of the comfortable life I gave you, that is basically how we treat our children and it is for their good, no one can accuse God of not being a good parent, and adult children can be very, Very stubborn.

In short, God can ask someone to talk to one of his rebellious children. Or if one of God’s rebellious children is going to an event for enjoyment instead of doing what He asked, God can work so that another one of His children, that happen to be going to the same event, get there right before the rebellious child so he can see that that guy got the last ticket and the event is now sold out. Or God can remove His hedge of protection and Satan and his crew will do what comes natural to them concerning God’s children, (in this case, asking God for help would be ideal). God can control the whether, all elements on earth, resources etc (<all of the things in this paragraph can become big smelly fish) and not one drop of it is interfering with a persons will (reprogramming one’s decisions so they will do what God ask of them).

But one might decide on their own that it’s better not to be without the blessings of God (and if you are alive then you have access to God’s blessings so no excuses). But even if God physically came down, picked up one of His humans and put them in a different place, even if the human did not want to be there, God would not be doing anything He said He would not do. We do the same with our children, God breaks no laws concerning this matter. And I am not being unbiblical, if you think so show me, but it’s likely that your interpretation of the scripture is not the same as the one I will give and the one I will give will not contradict God‘s word.

God only restricts Himself from reprogramming us to do what He ask (altering our decisions on His own), but God hindering our actions or interacting with other humans and resources is not the same as reprogramming our decisions.
As for the rest of this...I suppose I shall wait for further discussion. :)
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

Post by jlay »

It still sounds to me like you're saying Jonah was against going to Nineveh. I don't see it like that. I see it as Jonah thought it was useless to go to Nineveh and thought he knew best, but God causing a fish to swallow him up for a few days, changed his mind and knew God knew better than he did. So Jonah wasn't against going or spreading God's word, he figured God was gracious enough to do without him going. Jonah seems to have been angry that his prophetic words did not come pass. It seems Jonah wanted to see Nineveh destroyed.
Aren't you contradicting yourself? Jonah was most assuredly against going to Ninevah. He didn't just not go. He ran in the opposite direction. I don't see how you could conclude otherwise. The only thing that changed was Jonah went. He still didn't want to go. God essentially 'made' him go. Jonah didn't want to go, because he knew God would be merciful if they did repent. And Jonah resented the fact that Ninevah repented and was spared.
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

Post by BavarianWheels »

jlay wrote:
It still sounds to me like you're saying Jonah was against going to Nineveh. I don't see it like that. I see it as Jonah thought it was useless to go to Nineveh and thought he knew best, but God causing a fish to swallow him up for a few days, changed his mind and knew God knew better than he did. So Jonah wasn't against going or spreading God's word, he figured God was gracious enough to do without him going. Jonah seems to have been angry that his prophetic words did not come pass. It seems Jonah wanted to see Nineveh destroyed.
Aren't you contradicting yourself? Jonah was most assuredly against going to Ninevah. He didn't just not go. He ran in the opposite direction. I don't see how you could conclude otherwise. The only thing that changed was Jonah went. He still didn't want to go. God essentially 'made' him go. Jonah didn't want to go, because he knew God would be merciful if they did repent. And Jonah resented the fact that Ninevah repented and was spared.
Possibly, yes...I'm having issues with believing God "makes" anyone do anything.
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

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I am talking about internal process here wheels (one’s decisions), for example, as Jesus said.

Matthew 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

A man can imagine himself sleeping with a woman and carry out the events in his mind but not actually be sleeping with the real life physical woman. So the fact that the man does not have the woman does not mean that he can not decide that he wants the woman despite what is going on in reality.

Also, a man can decide that he is going to physically act on the decisions he made in his mind. But because of various circumstances, the man may have a difficult time carrying out his desires. Let’s say that a man has chosen to act on the decisions he made in is mind concerning a desire for a particular woman. But due to the fact that the woman is married and not interested in the man, he is unsuccessful. Next the man tries to force himself on the woman but the woman’s husband (who is bigger and stronger) catches him and smashes his face in.

Did the husband prevent the man from doing what he wanted? Yep, did he have to reprogram the mans mind (change his decisions) to do it? Nope, does the man in my example (I am not talking about the scripture above) still want the woman, yep. Can the man keep trying to fight the woman’s husband? Yep, will he ever win? Not if the woman’s husband was as strong as God. Just as in this example, God is not reprogramming people, He is strong enough to stop people from doing what he does not want them to do or get them to do what he wants them to do without reprogramming there decisions.

Mark 11:15 Then they came to Jerusalem. And He entered the temple and began to drive out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves; 16and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple. 17And He began to teach and say to them, “Is it not written, ‘MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE NATIONS’? But you have made it a ROBBERS’ DEN.”

Jesus (God) stopped those who were buying and selling in the temple. Did he have to reprogram anyone to do it? Nope…Could they have resisted? Yep, would they have won? Nope. Is Jesus interfering with the actions of those buying and selling in the temple the same as interfering with these individuals internal decisions (reprogramming them so they would leave the temple)? Nope, God never said that He will not interfere with our actions to get us to carry out his will. He just seems to limit Himself when it comes to forcing us to do what He wants by reprogramming us. You want to show that God does not interfere with our actions to get His will done? Well, He did it a large number of times in the old testament and Jesus certainly did not break any promise He made concerning interfering with the actions of those buying and selling in the temple concerning the scripture above which is in the new testament. A very large portion of the bible supports what I am saying here, I really don’t see your point in arguing concerning this.

If you understand me Wheels, I respectfully ask that you not complicate this for those who are trying to fight doubt. If you honestly think that I am wrong then show me the scriptures that say God said He will not interfere with mans actions through various resources. A lot of people confuse God interfering with actions with Him interfering with free will (Just means that He will not reprogram us).

I’ll answer your comments below…..
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

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BavarianWheels wrote:
J.Davis wrote:Yes, Jonah is one example but so is Moses (who did not want to do what God said at first but God persuaded him) and the Egyptian Pharaoh, many others in the bible and even you and I wheels.
I'm not sure I would lump Moses and Pharaoh in the same with Jonah. Moses did not necessarily change his mind, Moses didn't think he COULD be God's voice...so God presented him with his brother to help him. Pharaoh on the other hand, his mind was not hardened by God as in God actually put it in Pharaoh's mind to go against Him, rather Pharaoh's heart was hardened against God of his own freewill. So the saying, "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" is accurate, but only in the sense that Pharaoh was against God and not that God physically caused Pharaoh to choose what he would've normally chosen
You almost have it wheels, again, I am talking about God interfering with actions or taking actions to persuade people to do what He wants, I did not say that God reprogrammed anyone (show me where I did if you think so) or reprogrammed Pharaoh‘s mind. You are wrong concerning Moses, Pharaoh and Jonah not being the same internally concerning this matter . They are the same in the sense that they did not want to do what God wanted at first but God used various methods to get them to change their own minds. You are contradicting yourself wheels. My original post (and every post after that) says that God does not reprogram humans but he holds the right to interfere with our actions, what do you think is wrong about what I said?
BavarianWheels wrote:[
J.Davis wrote:Understand what I am saying here. I am sure you will agree that God holds the right to do whatever He wants whenever He wants but He limits Himself in certain cases (such as reprogramming our decisions or desires so that we will carry out His whishes).
I'm trying to understand...but it still seems I disagree more than I agree.
Again….About what??? Show me why you disagree and show me the scripture to back up your claim.

I'll repeat Jaly concerning the following….
BavarianWheels wrote:It still sounds to me like you're saying Jonah was against going to Nineveh. I don't see it like that. I see it as Jonah thought it was useless to go to Nineveh and thought he knew best, but God causing a fish to swallow him up for a few days, changed his mind and knew God knew better than he did. So Jonah wasn't against going or spreading God's word, he figured God was gracious enough to do without him going. Jonah seems to have been angry that his prophetic words did not come pass. It seems Jonah wanted to see Nineveh destroyed.
jlay wrote:Aren't you contradicting yourself? Jonah was most assuredly against going to Ninevah. He didn't just not go. He ran in the opposite direction. I don't see how you could conclude otherwise. The only thing that changed was Jonah went. He still didn't want to go. God essentially 'made' him go. Jonah didn't want to go, because he knew God would be merciful if they did repent. And Jonah resented the fact that Ninevah repented and was spared.
BavarianWheels wrote:Possibly, yes...I'm having issues with believing God "makes" anyone do anything.
Well, God certainly does not do it by reprogramming our mind, but any other method (unless He said He would not do it) He wants to use to get us to change our own mind is fair game.
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

Post by jlay »

The Lord disciplines those He loves. If Jonah was a prophet then He was a believer. God chastened him. God didn't 'make' Paul go to Annanias, but He certainly made it clear to Paul, that if he wanted his sight, he would have to.

In fact this whole contradicts the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Does the HS influence your life? But do you still have a carnal nature? Do they war? Will God allow you (a believer) to find peace and contentment in sin?
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Re: Man's free will and God's will

Post by J.Davis »

Hmmmmmm? y:-?

Yes, I see it too now, wheels attempt to play with the word "make"… y/:)2

Obviously, given everything I said in this thread. When Jlay said "made" I took it in the same way a Father would say that he made his son go outside (not in the literal sense/not by reprogramming his son's mind). But now that I look at it, I see Wheels is up to his old tricks again :stirthepot::shakehead: LOL! Nice try wheels….You almost got away with it… :)
jlay wrote:Does the HS influence your life? But do you still have a carnal nature? Do they war? Will God allow you (a believer) to find peace and contentment in sin?
Great example Jlay! Thanks for making sure everything was tidy, but you know, I didn’t have any contradictions, I’m the best there is. 8)

But you’re not so bad yourself. :cheers:
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