Ok in Isaiah 53:4 is describing the servant become afflicted or become diseased, which something that didn't happen to Jesus.
I'm fairly certain we discussed this already, so I'm just gonna paste something off some web site, as i largely agree with this interpretation.
"How then do we explain Isaiah 53:3, which states that the servant of the Lord was "a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity" (NRSV)? There is actually some ambiguity in the Hebrew text, since: (1) The nouns 'mak'ob' and 'holi' can refer to either physical or metaphorical pain and sickness (see, e.g., Exod. 3:7 for 'mak'ob and Eccles. 6:2 for 'holi'). (2) The Hebrew does not say that the servant of the Lord was sick and in pain but rather that he was 'a man of pains' and 'intimate with sickness/suffering.' This describes Jesus quite accurately: He was often in anguish and pain because of the depth of human suffering (and human sinfulness), sometimes sighing or groaning under the burden of it all, at other times being moved to tears (see, e.g., Mark 7:31-34; John 11:32-36). Truly, he was a man of sorrows and pains, intimately involved with sick and afflicted people. (3) The Stone edition renders Isaiah 53:4b as, 'but we had regarded him diseased ['nagu'a'], stricken by God, and afflicted!' It is this verse--in particular the word 'nagua'a' (rendered here as 'diseased')--from which the Talmud drew the concept of the 'leper Messiah' (see b. Sanhedrin 98b). 'Nagu'a', however, can simply mean 'smitten,' with no reference to leprosy or sickness, as can be seen from the use of the word in Psalm 73:14, where it speaks of the psalmist's spiritual chastisements."[Brown (2): 73]
Next in Isaiah 53:6, its referring to the jews as the people gone astray. Can't be about gentiles as gentiles can't go astray from a path they never even encountered. Not to mention this is a period in history that was tough for the Jews so Isaiah here is giving them hope in spite of the suffering.
Yes it does say the jews have gone astray. now read the second half of the verse.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
It is clearly talking about somebody else suffering for them going astray.
Again, who suffers for israel? Does Bizarro world israel suffer for our israel? It makes absolutely no sense for the people of israel to refer to israel in the third person when talking about this. It is clear from the contex that somebody will suffer for Israel's sins.
That's not what the text states. It clearly shows somebody else is suffering for them, otherwise it simply doesn't make sense.
About verse four, that would be Isaiah expressing the feelings of the nation of Israel through prophecy, rather than Israel the nation speaking as if it were a man with a mouth. Also Israel as a nation was formed from the womb. All Israelites are descendents of Israel, who was formed in the womb. The very nation itself was indeed formed in a very real womb. The one who is the subject of Isaiah 53 however is definitively revealed in Isaiah 52:1. Isaiah there gives a large speech about Zion, aka Nation of Israel and sets the stage for everything else.
In other words, you're making crap up(something you're accusing us of doing) to make Israel fit. Lovely.
What's more is that Jesus fits with virtually nothing.
"he will see his offspring and prolong his days,"
How can Jesus who christians claim is everlasting have longer days.
It could be referring to Jesus as man. We don't know how long he was supposed to live so you can't really say God didn't "prolong his days", nor does "prolonge his days" exclude prolonging them to infinity(although my interpretation does not require this latterpoint). And just so you know, not all Christians agree on what exactly Jesus was.
53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning?
You are arguing against Jesus's divinity, not whether he fulfills the prophecy and thus I do not feel obliged to answer. Stick to the topic.
Even on the cross Jesus was recognized not only as human, but by name. Again I don't see this applicable with him once again.
Duh, what the hell do you think? They beat Jesus to a bloody pulp and because he was so wounded, they forgot it was him? What kind of messed up logic is this?
"He shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth" (Isa. 42:4).
Why don't we actually listen to what Isaiah says here in reference to the messiah.
Finally its pretty clear, especially since its not 'FOR our transgressions' its 'FROM our transgressions' that the subject is the Nation of Israel.
I don't see what isaiah 42 has to do with 53(which was our topic), nor do I see what problem it poses. Here are a few more verses to chew on:
8: By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
When did israel die? And why is israel made sound like a third party again? Do God and the author talk like Bob from Becker? "Bob shall be stricken for my transgressions". Please.
9: And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man
in his death,
When did israel die? Was it bizarro world israel again?
12: Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Again, israel never died. Maybe bizarro world israel did, who knows.
I find it silly that you'd even debate isaiah 53 as not being about the messiah since it is clear from the context that it is not israel who is suffering.
