Theory on the Ant-Christ

[Katabole]

Your right PL, it does have it's fulfillment in the next chapter. However, Sargon is a 'type' of antichrist. I believe you are of the Schofield school of theology and apologetics. I am not. I find E W Bullinger to be a scholar that far surpasses what is taught in the Schofield school.

Here is a dissertation regarding the Biblical times and dispensations from Bullinger. I don't know if you have read it already or not. I am not asking you to agree with it, just that you read it.

http://philologos.org/__eb-htetb/133.htm

[puritan lad]

Your right PL, it does have it's fulfillment in the next chapter. However, Sargon is a 'type' of antichrist. I believe you are of the Schofield school of theology and apologetics. I am not. I find E W Bullinger to be a scholar that far surpasses what is taught in the Schofield school.

Here is a dissertation regarding the Biblical times and dispensations from Bullinger. I don't know if you have read it already or not. I am not asking you to agree with it, just that you read it.

http://philologos.org/__eb-htetb/133.htm

I can hear B.W. and jlay laughing out loud now.

No, I'm definitely not a fan of Scofield (I'm not a dispensationalist in any way shape of form). In eschatology, I would be of he Gentry-Chilton, school. In Apologetics, I would be considered of the Van TIl-Bahnsen school.

I don't see any scriptural evidence of a future character called "antichrist". But I will take a look at the article after work.

[secretfire6]

This is an interesting topic and one I spent a lot of time researching.

This is what I believe-
According to Revelations 17:9 "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are the seven mountains on which the woman sits, There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come."
-Rome sits on seven hills, this is obvious and true
-As to a place, the man of sin would come to power in the place from which the Caesar would be "taken out of the way;" that is, Rome. He would be of Roman Power.
-As to a Religion- The man of sin would exalt himself above all others in a Church-Not just as a leader but as the leader or head of the church.
There are many more references and I can provide scriptures if this topic remains of interest to anyone.

I believe the Roman Empire was the Antichrist for many reasons.

Ralph Woodrow wrote some excellent books and I also suggest Fox's Christian Martyrs (which can be read online) and of course the Bible which you all already know =)

The 7 hills are the same as the 7 heads of the beast, which are seperate kingdoms rather than literal hills. The woman also sits by 4 waters, which are all the peoples and languages and the sort, instead of literal rivers. The woman is also called Babylon the great, which is described as a city with religious and economic influence. Any country that the Roman empire controlled would qualify for a place where Ceasar would be taken out of the way once the empire fell, right? I may be understanding your point wrong there . As the false messiah, this leader would most likely come to control the Jewish Temple since his ultimate "enemy" is God's people and must sneek his way in to decieve them. God said he would hand them over to a strong dilusion.
I don't believe ancient Rome was the beast, but I do believe that the roman-esque fashion in which nearly all the world now operates is the beast and it will come together in a 7 nation coalition just before the end times. Rome as a litteral empire has fallen, but it lives on in the way we build our cities, the way we govern our country, our religions...so many things that defines a country as "westernized" come from ancient Rome. I'll check out the books you mentioned soon..have to run to work for now

[Katetblue]

Thank you for the reply secretfire =)

I am a bit rusty regarding this topic because it's been quite a while since I did the research on it. I will say that I originally began my research on the rapture teaching that made zero sense and didn't line up to anything I have read in the Word of God. This led me into researching the current end times theories. I would definitely be interested in discussing more about this.

I pointed out Rome sitting on seven hills because there was a point of it being mentioned specifically in those terms in Revelations however, we agree on one thing and that is Rome being part of the equation. I just happen to believe it was the ancient Roman Empire.

I don't believe there will be another power like what the Roman Empire had where millions of Christians were killed for not denouncing their religion. (If you decide to read Fox's Christian Martyrs it is a real eye opener as to what happened to the Christians put to death by the Roman Empire). For me, looking around the World today, I just don't see a religious power getting that much power, again, where they put to death millions of Christians for not believing their way.

As for the false prophet, another interesting topic =) I believe it was Mohammad. The strong delusion is tied in with the anti-Christ, who sets himself up as God in the house of God calling himself Christ on earth. Who did this and does this to this day. The Pope. It goes on to talk about the delusion that will be so close to the truth many will believe it. The Roman Empire taught a religious belief that was so close to the truth many believed it but it wasn't the truth. Millions of true Christians died horrific deaths for not accepting it at the hands of the Roman Empire. To this day the same religion is taught but the Pope has lost the power he once had. Mohammad is a whole other topic. All I will say is God promised Abraham he would make a great nation out of him. Issac and Ishmael were his sons. He kept his word and out of his sons came two nations. God never said they would both be great. The false prophet is tied into Mohammad out of the Ishmael line.

I am interested in what you believe too and what information you have. I like to keep an open mind and I enjoy discussions about the Word.

[puritan lad]

The Seven Hills undoubtedly refer to Rome, and there is no reason to believe that it was anything other that the Roman Empire of the First Century, especially since the Seven churches were consistently told that these things would "shortly take place" (Revelation 1:1), "the time is near" (Revelation 1:3), and this was about to come upon the whole world (Revelation 3:10). The number of Nero's name in Revelation 13:18, as well as the fact that he was the emperor at the time of John's writing (Revelation 17:10) add further evidence. This is the sea beast (Revelation 13:1).

As for Babylon the great, she is the land beast (Revelation 13:11), the same "great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8). That would be Jerusalem, the city held responsible for the blood of the martyrs (Revelation 17:6, Matthew 23:34-36, Matthew 27:25). It was this city that was destroyed by the Roman beast. The main theme of Revelation is not the end of the world, nor about escape from tribulation, but about Christ's victory over his enemies (at that time were Rome and Jerusalem) in the New Covenant, and how the church should persevere through trials and tribulations. Certainly, the message to the church was not escape, but rather "..Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life." (Revelation 2:10)

[Katetblue]

Hello Puritan Lad,
Nicely put. I am curious what your thoughts are on the false prophet?

[secretfire6]

Thank you both for your input..this is getting really interesting. I must say I did also belive that the Beast of Revelation and Daniel was ancient Rome for a while, but have now advanced my understanding to show that the information and events told about in the end times scriptures are not ALL things that are past and done. I do see the parallels between Ancient Rome and the beast and the things that PuritanLad brought up and I have heard those very things interpreted in differing ways. The reasons I don't belive that it was all about ancient Rome have to do with the things that Revelation said the beast would do that Rome did not do and things Revelation said the "little horn" would do that Nero did not do. There are more things that don't fit than there are that do. I do agree with you very much that there will never again be an empire with the full power of Rome. This final empire was the feet and toes of the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's second dream and would be partly iron and partly clay (partly strong and partly weak). This would come AFTER the full iron legs, which was ancient Rome. The biggy is that it states in both Revelation and Daniel that this empire, the Beast, would not be brought down by any man or army, but God himself in christ's second comming would destroy the beast and set up a new kingdom that will last forever. Rome fell to the Huns and the germanic barbarian tribes of central Europe. Nero was killed by one of his servants.

I don't know a whole lot about mohammed, but I don't think he is the false prophet mentioned in Revelation. the bible says the false prohpet would cause people to worship the beast and he would show signs and miracles and give homage to the beast. I believe Mohammed lived quite a long time after the days of Nero and really had nothing to do with Rome. His goal was to spread islam and even attempted to invade france and convert the Catholics there by force..or maybe that was one of his proteges. anyway i'll have to read up on Mohammed some. Tons of people believe that the popes are the antichrist and it does seem logical and some of them may very well have been so, but as for that special horn on the beast, there is one fatal flaw with thinking its a pope past or present. we know from combining the information in Daniel that this horn has to arise from a nation that was under both the Roman empire and the Greek empire. All the popes I can remember came from Europe, which was not part of the Greek empire. That being said, I do TOTALLY agree with you about the religion that the Roman empire created and how most of its teachings and practices have been maintained by both Catholic and Protestant churches through the ages. I see it as "the great falling away" continued. Or maybe this springing up of new christian-based religions is the great harlot..which started in Rome (7 hills) and is spreading over the nations (the many waters) and will ride atop the beast when it arrives..i'll read into that chapter again to see if it makes sense.

as far as the number 666 and Nero, there is alot of debate. it is a likely and possible answer for it, but its not the only name you can use to get 666. also, there is an agrument saying that since revelation was written in Greek and to many Greek churches, that you have to use a different process and cannot arrive at the name Nero, but you can get the word "roman"

[Katetblue]

Heya secretfire6 =)

Good points. This topic has many different understandings and is so interesting. I like to learn and understand EVERYTHING to do with Gods Word. I will share what I believe the little horn represents and how it is tied in with Rome historically. Ralph Woodrow explains it very well.

The little horn in Daniel's vision "had eyes" and his "look was more stout than his fellows" (Daniel 7:20). Because a horn on a beast doesn't normally possess eyes, such symbolism stand out vividly. This horn would be a power with foresight, intelligence. It would be a seer. The Papacy fits this because the Pope claims to be the overseer of the whole world-wide church. He claims to rule over and pastor more people than any other leader. He is viewed as more stout in his look, greatly feared, and claims to have the keys of Heaven.

The little horn was to "make war with" and "wear out the saints of the most High" (Daniel 7:21,25). The early Christians were persecuted by the Jews, later came persecutions under the rule of the pagan Roman Empire. But the war against the saints here described was to be carried out by a power that would rise out of Rome following the breaking up of the Empire. Looking into history, we find that century after century of persecution did come upon the saints by a power that rose out of Rome. That power was the Papacy---and none other. Every imaginable method of torture was used if people didn't bow to the Pope's system. (If you want to read Fox's Christian Martyr's it is an excellent account of what happened and was written during that time as it was happening via letters that were sent to John Fox. Here is the link http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html you can read it online)

I think you will find the history of Mohammad interesting. He was definitely a false prophet and out of his teachings came Islam. He is the prophet for the Muslims and I believe Christ made specific reference to him in Matthew 24:23-26. It says, "Then if anyone says to you Look, here is the Christ!" or "There!" do not believe it. "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. "See I told you beforehand." "Therefore, if they say to you Look, He is in the desert! do not go out; or Look, he is in the inner rooms! do not believe it." Mohammad came out of the desert and priests sit in inner rooms playing the role of Christ. They claim to forgive sins in confession. If you go back and read about Abraham and God's promise of creating a great nation out of him, you will see how Ishmael is tied into the equation that leads to Mohammad. I realize there are have been many false prophets I just feel Mohammad was specifically mentioned due to how huge Islam is through the teaching that started with him. To this day there is a major war going on.

As far as Nero, I will need to go do some reading on that part of your comment =) I don't recall reading anything that tied into Nero in what I have studied but like i said, it has been quite a while since I have researched this. Anyway, I need to get some sleep =) I Look forward to conversing more on this.

[secretfire6]

Hey guys My last post was made hastily as I was getting ready for work. Now I'm getting ready to leave for Ohio to my Uncle's funeral, but wanted to post some of the evidence I have as well as my interpretations of the end times scriptures.
If the 7 hills did refer to Rome, which they may not, it definately wasn't the empire during the times of Nero and the early emperors. In my other post I mentioned that there were too many events that didnt match between scripture and early Roman history. In this post I will lay out the timeline mis-matches, namely the fact that the book of Revelation was written as this stage in Rome's history was ending. I strongly encourage you to look into early Roman history as well as find a reliable source for dating Revelation. my results are as follows:
There were 4 emperors before Nero in Rome's early empirical age, making Nero number 5
Nero: reign AD 54-AD 68
died AD68
Galba: reign AD 68- Jan 15 AD 69
Otho: reign Jan 15- Apr 14 AD69
Vitellius: Apr 15- Dec 24 AD 69
Vespasian: AD 69-Jun 24 AD 79 * military commander in Palestine who, withTitus, Destroyed the Temple and dispersed the Jews
Titus: reign AD 79-sep 13 AD 81 *was emporer when Vesuvius erupted and destroyed pompei
Domitian: reign sep 14 AD 81- Sep 18 AD 96 * brought unity and peace to the Empire. jews and Christians still dispersed/exiled
Revelation written: between AD 94-96

As we can see nothing in Revelation concerning the Beast with future tense can be attributed to Nero's reign since he had been dead for at least 26 years and this old Empirical style of Rome only had 2 more years before it would forever change. Puritan Lad, I must ask, where you are getting your references from? I mean what Bible is it? Because when I mouse over the links that you have in your text, some of them are quite different from what my Bibles say and I find little or no connection between the verses and the statements. I honestly don't mean to sound rude, I'm just quite confused. Example: Babylon the Great is the land beast in revelation 13:11. The only connection I see is that they are both involved in the false religious system, but how did Jerusalem decieve the world into worshiping Rome and Nero? Ive read and read in 2 of my Bibles and can't find where the Beast kills the harlot either. I read that God's judgement destroys her using the ten kings that will be the ten horns of the beast because "God put it into their hearts to fulfill his purpose, to be of one mind and to give their kingdoms to the Beast". maybe thats what you mean. Sorry, just a bit lost trying to see what you're seeing

The verses stating that things are to take place shortly and that the time is near are most probably realtive. The very end of Revelation has 2 verses from our lord himself "look! I am coming quickly..." and " he who bears witnesss of these things says 'yes; I am coming quickly.' Amen! Come, Lord Jesus". It's been nearly 2,000 years since Christ's resurrection, so apparently "soon", "quickly" and "time is near" are relative to something else..maybe all of human existence.
I see the 7 heads or 7 hills as kingdoms. During John's time 5 had come and gone (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-persia, Greece) one was still there (Rome) and one had yet to come and that one will be only for a little while (?). Out of one of the fallen kingdoms comes a king who is the 8th (horns..10+1-3=8) but he is of the 7 (remaining horns or the heads. AKA the Beast) This Beast is a symbol of the political and millitary power of the antichrist empire. I see the harlot as a world system of idol worship, greed, abominations, indulgances and the killing of believers. It originates and eminates from a city called "Babylon the Great" this system will precede the beast and serve as a unifying system for the world. Once unified, God will destroy this system using the kings of the earth who will then give their kingdoms over to the antichrist figure creating the Beast. During this exchange, three of the original 10 kings will be uprooted, leaving a beast of 7 heads and 8 horns (see the note on horns above). I see the beast with two small horns like a lamb as a false religion or the false prophet. It serves to give the beast a spiritual power. Signs and miracles, false teachings and false churches abound, decieving those who would be decieved and giving authority to kill those who will not be decieved. When I read Revelation I see things that have happened in the past, that are happening now, and that will happen in the future and some of the ideas behind the writtings can span all 3.
well, time for bed now. Talk to you again in 3 days

[Katetblue]

Hello, Sorry to hear about your Uncle.

I am really impressed with the information you have. Regarding the time of Christs return, I have come to the conclusion that since with God there is no time, a thousand years to us is like 1 second to Him. Christ doesn't know when he is returning so it makes sense that He always spoke of the urgency in making sure we are faithful and true to Him. He may always feel time is short, urgency is always there. For us it seems like forever.

Anyway, this is how I feel everything unfolded and might help with the time-line. I'll do my best to explain it-

Nero was one of many brutal Emperors. The first documented case of imperially supervised persecution of the Christians in the Roman Empire begins with Nero (37-68). But if we look at how long the Roman Empire was in power, on every level, it fits in perfectly with history and what God said was to take place.The Roman Empire, on every level of power, reigned terror for about 1300 years.

As we read in 2 Thessalonians 2:7, The mystery of the lawless one is already at work in the World. Early Christians were persecuted for their faith, at the hands of both Jews from whose religion Christianity was an offshoot, and the Roman Empire which controlled much of the land. This continued from the 1st century until the early 4th. The Great Persecution is considered the largest. Beginning with a series of four edicts banning Christian practices and ordering the imprisonment of Christian clergy, the persecution intensified until all Christians in the empire were commanded to sacrifice to the gods or face immediate execution. Over 20,000 Christians are thought to have died during Diocletian's reign. Persecution lasted until Constantine I came to power in 313 and legalized Christianity. Constantine is emperor over the ten territories of the entire Roman Empire. I believe this fits in with the Ten Horns or Kingdoms of Daniel's Prophecy.In order to gain control over all of the Roman Empire (both the Western and Eastern legs), Constantine had to overcome three other Roman Emperors: (1) Maximian in 310AD., (2) Maxentius in 312AD., and (3) Licinius in 324AD. , but these three Roman emperors were not the three horns that were overcome by the "Little Horn Full of Eyes." Why? Because Constantine did not make war against the Saints, as required by Daniel 7:25, and neither did he change the Times and the Laws of God. But he did lay the foundation that would give rise to the catholic church. I covered the Little Horn in my previous post.
(Christianity was finally tolerated under Constantine, with the church enjoying most favored status although other religions were also tolerated. Rome benefited from the emperor's attentions.)

Christianity eventually became corrupted with idol worship, money, and paganism. This started to happen under Julian II (Caesar, 6 November 355 - February 360 A.D,) who temporarily restored the traditional Roman religion and established broad religious tolerance renewing Pagan and Christian hostilities.These two combined eventually formed into Catholicism. There was a long stretch of time where the Papal System became stronger, persecutions were horrific, and this went on for centuries.

To shorten this up some, I will get right to the point that was the beginning of the end for the Papal System. It started with Martin Luther. Martin Luther (10 November 1483 – 18 February 1546) was a German priest and professor of theology who initiated the Protestant Reformation. He strongly disputed the claim that freedom from God's punishment of sin could be purchased with money, as the Papal System taught and killed Christians over who didn't accept it. Luther looked around and realized they were facing the Beast as spoken of in Revelations. He started teaching the Truth according to God's Word to everyone. Out of that came the Protestant Reformation. The final fall of the Papal System took place when Napoleon came into the picture and this is why;
France had been in disagreement with the Roman Catholic Church since the revolution. But in 1801, Napoleon and Pope Pius VII signed the Concordat of 1801. With this agreement the pope recognized the revolution and France recognized the Church. Napoleon did not care for the Roman Catholic Church, but he recognized that some agreement was necessary. What annoyed him the most was the amount of political power the Roman Catholic Church held. He had once written, "Christianity declares that its kingdom is not of this world; how then can it stimulate affection for one's native land, how can it inspire any feelings but skepticism, indifference and coldness for human affairs and government?" It is interesting to take note here of the fact the Entire Roman Empire, Papal System was viewed as an organization, government, political and religious ruler over all. It isn't viewed that way today and never will be again. Further, Napoleon had been in control of Italy for some time, but when he ordered that the Papal State be annexed to his empire, Pope Pius VII excommunicated those who were sent to carry out the annexation. Napoleon responded by arresting the Pope and throwing him in prison, where he died. This ended the Pope's power ultimately. It brought down the system. Was that the ultimate destruction spoken of in Revelations? Not quite. The final destruction of the Beast(Catholic Church) has been happening for several years. What I mean by that is, even though persecutions and the power the Pope had was destroyed the paganism kept going strong. When God said he would destroy the Beast with his Word that is exactly what is happening within the Catholic Church today. The Pope is powerless now.The Holy spirit is on the move everywhere including the Catholic Church because Priests are being filled with the Holy Spirit in mass amounts like never before seen in history. I believe this is what God meant. It fits perfectly and makes sense.

Off to do homework. Take Care =)

[secretfire6]

Thank you, I wasn'tvery close to him, but it was a very sad time

Wow, good stuff there! We have the same view of the Holy Roman Empire and the early catholic church. The only difference I can detect between you and me is that I see all that you have described as being the Harlot rather than the Beast. The Harlot has been around since ancient Egypt and even Jerusalem fell victim to her (she is known spiritually as Sodom and Egypt...) remember the attributes of the harlot: greed, sexual immorality, drunk on the blood of saints/witnesses, oppulance and most importantly spiritual fornication or idol worship. I like to read Bibles or translations that are as close to the original language as possible to help clarify. Here are some verses that may help:

"Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: the seven heads mean/are seven mountains where/which the woman sits on top. And they mean seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while. And the wild beast that was, but is not, it is also an eigth one [king], but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction. And the ten horns that you saw are/mean ten kings, who have not yet recieved a kingdom, but they do recieve authority as kings one hour with the wild beast." REV 17:9-12
So in john's time the five kings or kingdoms before him were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. The one in power at his time was Rome and after his time would be one that will only last a short while. It also tells us that the wild beast will be from the kingdoms or A kingdom before john's time, not Rome, and will return as the 8th king, but is involved in all the rest of the 7 before him and will be totally destroyed. The ten kings of the beast have never had a kingdom before, but will have authority in the 7 regions/kingdoms of the beast for a very short time. All of these old kingdoms had ties with the harlot and showed the characteristics of "fornicating" with her. Each one also had it's main city in which her signs were obviously manifested (sodom and gomorrah, babylon, Giza, Athens, Rome).

"And he says to me: 'The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean/are peoples and crowds/masses and nations and tongues. And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire. For God put [it] into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out one purpose and give their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished. And the woman you saw means/is the great city that has a kingdom over all the kings of the earth.'" REV 17:15-18
This tells us that the harlot effects many many different types of peoples and once the ten kings arrive and the 8th king/kingdom from the old five before John's time arrives, they will hate her and the ten kings will destroy whatever city she is most manifested in at that time, thus fulfilling God's will of destroying the harlot. Then the ten kings will give their kingdom(s) over to that 8th king/kingdom.

I see Rome as just one of the 7 hills/heads/kingdoms of the beast and the antichrist leader will arrise from a nation that was part of the 5 old empires as well as a nation that was under the control of both ancient Rome AND ancient Greece. This is supported by the prophesies in Daniel. The harlot is a global system of false religions and gods, greed, sexual immoralty and hating of God's people which continues today and is best seen in the greater westernized cities and religions, but is all over the world. Again, the main reason I dont see any of the emperors or popes as the little horn or antichrist leader is that this person or entity had to come from regions under the control of ancient Greece and from kingdoms before the time of John. This must exclude all of mainland Europe from being the antichrist leader or the beast in whole, but definately doesnt exclude it from being a part of the beast. There is no church that I know of that is not in bed with the harlot today. Each one has it's false teachings and sinful deeds, whether on purpose or by ignorance. The true church lies inside the hearts of those who believe, no matter what the sign on their building says or what country they are in. I'm hesitant to pin all the things of Daniel and Revelation on Rome and the Popes. Sadly,I think its much bigger than that, you know?
I'm really impressed by your knowledge as well as understanding and eagerness to find truth. I might suggest just broadening your scope when it comes to end times issues. I've heard theories pinning the beast, antichrist and harlot as: Rome, catholics and the pope, The current USA, the European union, Nazi Germany, and even Gengis Khan and the mongols. All of them can produce key points that fit perfectly with scripture and history, but all also have fatal flaws that are overlooked.

goodluck with your studies

[puritan lad]

Thanks secretfire6,

If the 7 hills did refer to Rome, which they may not, it definately wasn't the empire during the times of Nero and the early emperors.

That's precisely what the debate is about.

There were 4 emperors before Nero in Rome's early empirical age, making Nero number 5

Ancient Roman historians almost universally list Julius Caesar as emperor #1, making Nero #6.

Revelation written: between AD 94-96

You must have missed the majority of this discussion. Revelation was written between 64 and 68 AD. See Dating the Book of Revelation

Puritan Lad, I must ask, where you are getting your references from? I mean what Bible is it? Because when I mouse over the links that you have in your text, some of them are quite different from what my Bibles say and I find little or no connection between the verses and the statements. I honestly don't mean to sound rude, I'm just quite confused.

I'm fond of the ESV, but it really shouldn't matter in this instance.

Example: Babylon the Great is the land beast in revelation 13:11. The only connection I see is that they are both involved in the false religious system, but how did Jerusalem decieve the world into worshiping Rome and Nero?

Throughout Scripture, the Jews were deceived into rejecting their true king in favor of Rome. (See Luke 23:2, John 19:12-15, Acts 17:7)

I've read and read in 2 of my Bibles and can't find where the Beast kills the harlot either. I read that God's judgement destroys her using the ten kings that will be the ten horns of the beast because "God put it into their hearts to fulfill his purpose, to be of one mind and to give their kingdoms to the Beast". maybe thats what you mean. Sorry, just a bit lost trying to see what you're seeing.

That's it.

"And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire," (Revelation 17:16)

I see the 7 heads or 7 hills as kingdoms. During John's time 5 had come and gone (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-persia, Greece) one was still there (Rome) and one had yet to come and that one will be only for a little while (?). Out of one of the fallen kingdoms comes a king who is the 8th (horns..10+1-3=8) but he is of the 7 (remaining horns or the heads. AKA the Beast)

The Bible says that they are kings, not kingdoms (Revelation 17:10). Remember, the kings here are not a symbol, they are an interpretation of a symbol. When the angel appears to John and declares, "This calls for a mind with wisdom", he is about to give an interpretation of the seven heads of the beast. To suggest that the angel interprets the symbol by giving another symbol is hardly a revelation. It is an enigma.

[Katetblue]

The current USA, the European union, Nazi Germany, and even Gengis Khan and the mongols. All of them can produce key points that fit perfectly with scripture and history, but all also have fatal flaws that are overlooked.

Fatal flaws is an understatement in my humble opinion.

The Roman Catholic Church and the Papal System (historically) fit perfectly in every way as the Great Beast, anti-Christ, and everything else I mentioned in my post.
Thank you for the reply =)

[Byblos]

The Roman Catholic Church and the Papal System (historically) fit perfectly in every way as the Great Beast, anti-Christ, and everything else I mentioned in my post.

Care to elaborate?

[secretfire6]

hello again
Kateblue, i missed one of your earlier posts somehow, so i appologize. thank you both, Kate and PuritanLad as i am now seeing what you are seeing and new knowledge has come to me through you. It certainly is a compelling view. things are comming together, but I have a new problem. If the seven hills do represent the first 7 emperors of rome and we do include Julius as number one, then would Otho be the 8th? Galba would be the 7th, and indeed his reign was a short time as less than a year. then it states "the wild beast that was, but is not, is also an eight one" So is it saying that Otho was the wild beast?? what is his connection to ancient Greece? Did he have control over a Greek provence before he was emperor? my history says he was Governor of lusitania...where is lusitania?

the reason i thought the seven hills were kingdoms is due to the information taught to us in daniel. a beast is an empire, heads are regions/kingdoms and horns are rulers/kings. example are the beasts representing greece. one a leopard with 4 wings and 4 heads and another a goat that starts with one horn, then it breaks off and 4 grow in its place. Greece was divided into 4 regions after alexander died and a ruler governed each region. so when i read revelation having a beast with 7 heads and ten horns it meant to me an empire of 7 regions with ten kings that later gets cut down to 7 regions and 8 kings. i couldnt fit an empire of 7 regions and 10 kings, later 8, into ancient Rome or the holy Roman empire.

Hope you can help me out here time for work, have a great day