Cross Dressing/Transvestitism!

[Colin2000]

Hi All,

I have my wife's cousin walk into my Church Christmas Eve Mass dressed as a woman he is really a man, I think! That should have got the temperature in there above freezing point but it didn't seem to cause a stir at all! The English tend to pretend there is nothing happening you know if it isn't the norm or more they expect!!!

As with Homosexuality do those active here consider this male cousin of my wife who considers that his actions do not commit a perpetual sin when dressed thus have any grounds to believe this other than he likes it? Do you consider he is sinning or only her when wearing skirt and wig is sinning?

I am trying to make light of this event as he perpetuates what I consider a sin and as he professes to be a Christian now! I would be glad of some advice before I send a letter of resignation to my Anglican Church on this impasse where my Vicar welcomes this sinner into the local Anglican Church and to all appearances appears to accept him as a she I am told.

Yours in Christ,

Colin2000.

PS. That is without my problems in my Church over women lookalike Priests celebrating and consecrating The Bread and The Wine, (Flesh and Blood!), and then there is the prospect of one of those women becoming my Bishop soon! Nasty, it makes you think for a minute that The Pope, First amongst Bishops has got it right after all!!!

[J.Davis]

Hi Colin2000, Welcome to the forum!

Well, if your wife's cousin knows what the bible says concerning immoral acts (any immoral act) or acting on perverse desires or intentions then he is definitely sinning as he can only have intentions to show some kind of rebellion against God or show some gesture indicating freedom from what he perceives as the moral chains of God or his followers. So he is definitely a blasphemer, mocking God, the word and the church.

Sinners are welcome in the house of God and we are all sinners, so don’t focus on that. We all have a right to enter the church and receive consoling and correction. But what he is doing is different and really needs to be confronted. It’s the equivalent of knowing that you should not speed, hating the fact that the law exist because you like going really fast and then as you ride behind a cop you decide to stomp on the gas, blow him by and grin as if to say….you and your law can bite me.. I’ll do as I please.

Such intentional public displays of sin should not be accepted in the church and someone should have confronted him and made that clear. They should have told him that he is welcome but needs to go change. He shows disrespect for God, the people who came to fellowship, those who need counseling, those who want to learn and those who want to find God. And the church invites potential confusion and disorder into the hearts of those who want God and seek God but are confused and still have strong desires to rebel, fight and a need to find excuses.

The bible records that Jesus threw those who caused disruption and confusion out of the house of worship.

Mark 11:15 Then they came to Jerusalem. And He entered the temple and began to drive out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves; 16and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple. 17And He began to teach and say to them, “Is it not written, ‘MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE NATIONS’? But you have made it a ROBBERS’ DEN.”

The general mindset in America and other countries concerning ones right to live life by whatever sexual preference they desire, no matter the circumstances is really strong these day. Your wife's cousin could no doubt bring up some kind of stupid lawsuit for not allowing him entry into the church.

I would confront your wife's cousin yourself and tell him how disrespectful he’s being and then I would question the pastor concerning his beliefs on the matter and express your feelings, the fact that it’s disrespectful and invites various potential forms of confusion into the church and the heart of those seeking clarity. Also, biblically speaking, the cross-dressing priests and/or bishop should be expelled, they should know the word and still they deliberately show disrespect for all to see. The whole thing is out of order if you ask me, if you have it on your heart to say something then I would encourage you to do so, I am sure they all have someway to justify their actions, twisting scriptures but no amount of twisting could make that right..

If you don’t feel you should say anything then I would consider writing your letter (talk with your wife first) and leaving.

Just my advice…Enjoy the forum Colin2000!

[Gman]

According to the Bible, cross dressing is a sin... Deuteronomy 22:5

[zoegirl]

I guess that leaves out kilts for men and trousers for women....hmmm I've been sinning and not even realizing it. JK I know what you mean

[CHELLIE]

This is a Interesting Forum I am Amazed at how little people know about the bible, to understand the bible, you have to understand the Culture of the time too, they go hand in Hand, for example, What ever the Kings Religion was at that time, that was your religion too, like it or not, if the king said that male were to have sex with males and females were to have sex with females, you did it, or you went against the kings religion, and you were killed, thats why the christians were being killed, they went against the kings religion, also there were men that dressed like women too, they were male priest, that dressed like the Female demi gods, and sacrificed children to Female Idols, one is ISHTAR, thats where Deuteronomy 22.5 comes into play, Its Amazing at how many people do not understand this , ALSO there are 3 Sexes, yes that right, Jesus says there are 3 sexes, not just female and male, where you ask, MATTHEW 19 ver 11-12 , but you wont be able to understand it, its Hidden, but i will try to Explain, Jesus says that some were BORN EUNUCH from their mothers womb, and Others were made that way by men, and others have renounced Marrage for the kindom of god, OK 3 Definitions of a EUNUCH, some people think that a Eunuch is just a casterated male well they are 1/3 right 1. Born that way, Transgender people, gay people, Hermaphrodites, etc, they are Born That way they are a neutral sex , 2. castrated male and a male to female transsexual that has had sex reasignment surgery, same thing, Casterated , 3. some men are not attracted to females and go into the Priest hood as a means of refuge, they may have tendencies but most dont follow them and some do with young boys, also look at Isaiah 56 ver 3, the NIV bible is the easiest bible to read and Understand IMHO also the 3 rd sex are also Called OTHERS or Eunuchs, and the Lord has a warm heart for EUNUCHS, also during those Early time, when a nation invaded another Nation, they took the very young men and casterated them, and marched them in their own country for people to see.
why are some people transgendered, gay, bi ? Ok here is why, everyone starts out female in the womb, up to the 7 week of development, whats known as a Quasi female fetus, if the child is going to be a boy, then the male hormone Andgrogen has to change the female fetus into becoming a male, it caused the female proto clitoris to grow out and that becomes the penis, it caused the proto Overies to drop down into a sack, and that becomes the test. and the male hormone andgrogen has to change the body and the brain, sometimes the Male hormone is weak or insensitive and does not complete the job, sometimes the brain stays female but the body changes to male thats well known for over 10 years, AIS, Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, also Journal of Endocrinology and metabolism 1999, http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034, also most women have 46 X female Chromosomes , and Most Males only have 23 Male Y Chromosomes and 23 X Female Chromosomes , why, because males start out as female , and Birth disorders are very difficult for these people, So, Bottom line is, Dont Judge others, there are 3 sexes, know the times and cultures of the bibles times to understand it better, Take Care, Chellie

[Gman]

This is a Interesting Forum I am Amazed at how little people know about the bible, to understand the bible,

Yes so do I...

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it [is] confusion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

Note: We see the warning given in Leviticus 18:24 and as we can see in the following passage, Israel did not heed the warning given

1Kings 14:22 And Judah did evil in the sight of the LORD, and they provoked him to jealousy with their sins which they had committed, above all that their fathers had done.
23 For they also built them high places, and images, and groves, on every high hill, and under every green tree.
24 And there were also sodomites in the land: [and] they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
18 Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God.

06945 qadesh {kaw-dashe'} from 06942; n m
AV - sodomite 5, unclean 1; 6
1) male temple prostitute

1Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1Cor 6:9 <2228> Know ye <1492> (5758) not <3756> that <3754> the unrighteous <94> shall <2816> (0) not <3756> inherit <2816> (5692) the kingdom <932> of God <2316>? Be <4105> (0) not <3361> deceived <4105> (5744): neither <3777> fornicators <4205>, nor <3777> idolaters <1496>, nor <3777> adulterers <3432>, nor <3777> effeminate <3120>, nor <3777> abusers of themselves with mankind <733>,

3120 malakos {mal-ak-os'} of uncertain affinity; adj
AV - soft 3, effeminate 1; 4
1) soft, soft to the touch
2) metaph. in a bad sense
2a) effeminate
2a1) of a catamite
2a2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
2a3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
2a4) of a male prostitute

1Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

2Tim 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[Human]

Gman, I notice you copy and pasted an entire post, ignoring the topic both times. It appears you wish to blatantly ignore science and take your own preconcieved notions of people and apply them when a few minutes of open reading would absolve things.

[B. W.]

Gman, I notice you copy and pasted an entire post, ignoring the topic both times. It appears you wish to blatantly ignore science and take your own preconcieved notions of people and apply them when a few minutes of open reading would absolve things.

He answered you very well...

Romans 1:22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32c helps brings things into beter focus and Romans 1:28c sums up this topic well...
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[Human]

How? I see no connection.

[Seraph]

Oftentimes, people cross dress not because they get a sexual thrill out of it but say it is because it makes them feel "comfortable". They feel more normal wearing women's clothing because they say they have the body of one gender but the "brain" of the opposite.
Just throwing it out there that it's not necessarily a sexual perversion, and often has nothing to do with homosexuality.

Based on personal experience, I really think many Christians are way too quick to dismiss anything they don't consider "normal" or a social norm that they're used to to be a sinful lifestyle, whether the Bible actually says anything about it or not. In these cases, their quickness to point out sin isn't rooted in a love of God and the Bible, but out of their own personal prejudices and fear of what they aren't used to seeing. When this happens, it is damaging to the Church's image because it confirms many non-Christians unfortunate sterotypes.

Anyway, I personally think that if the church were to ask him to leave, it would've been a big mistake, regardless of whether or not you think he was sinning. If he might've been considering giving his life to God, that could've easily blown the deal over something petty.

[MarcusOfLycia]

I have to be honest that I am confused with the idea that this stuff doesn't have anything to do with homosexuality.

Oftentimes, people cross dress not because they get a sexual thrill out of it but say it is because it makes them feel "comfortable". They feel more normal wearing women's clothing because they say they have the body of one gender but the "brain" of the opposite.
Just throwing it out there that it's not necessarily a sexual perversion, and often has nothing to do with homosexuality.

Maybe some examples would help me articulate my confusion - and I don't mean these to be trite. They are general problems I have:

Scenario 1: A man wears women's clothing because he feels he is actually a woman trapped in a man's body. The man has sex with his wife. Is he mentally homosexual since he feels he's a woman?

Scenario 2: A man wears women's clothing because he feels he is actually a woman trapped in a man's body. The man has sex with another man. Is the man not a homosexual because he feels he's a woman?

[J.Davis]

Hi Seraph! I hope this helps to clear things up concerning what I said in my first post.

I appreciate your concern for the Christian image and the effort you are putting into making sure that the Christian image is portrayed properly. I know a small portion of the difficulties you have encountered in your life and feel that God can work so that the strength developed as a result of pressing through those difficulties will help you lift many to a higher level in Christ with His guidance.

However, concerning the matter at hand, I believe my first post is biblical and Jesus approved-but that is not to say that we approach every case the same. As I said, there is a difference between intentional public displays of sin (in a church) and hidden private sin. In short, if a visitor comes to one’s house knowing they are a Christian and therefore do not allow certain displays of unrighteousness (can be anything) in front of their children and guest and the aforementioned visitor was told beforehand not to perform such acts but did them when the owner of the house was not looking (God is always looking) and no one says anything to the owner then as far as the owner knows, the aforementioned visitor respects him and the rules of his house.

On the other hand, if the visitor comes to one’s house knowing the rules and in front of the owner of the house intentionally and spitefully breaks the rules, and the owner of the house says nothing and lets him stay, why should anyone respect the owners rules or the owner for that matter. It’s about respect and love for those who dwell in the house (and in God’s case, those who wish to become apart of the family). Even if one did not know the rules before entering the house and they enter with inappropriate behavior, once they are told the rules they have an obligation to obey the rules and conform to the owners wishes or the wishes of those the owner left in charge of his house. And if the visitor refuses to obey the rules and conform to the owners wishes, then he or she desires their standard of living above their desire to stay and fellowship with the Host.

Oftentimes, people cross dress not because they get a sexual thrill out of it but say it is because it makes them feel "comfortable". They feel more normal wearing women's clothing because they say they have the body of one gender but the "brain" of the opposite.
Just throwing it out there that it's not necessarily a sexual perversion, and often has nothing to do with homosexuality.

Many find comfort (at least temporary comfort ) in their preferred sin, that is normal because we are human. But in no case is heart corrupting sin right in the eyes of God. So, how the sinner may feel does not change the fact that they are sinning.

Furthermore, humans judge (legally) based of the events that occurred, regardless of any good intentions one may have in their heart or innocent mistakes they might make, most often, if we break a law, even if it’s an innocent mistake or done with good intentions, we still have to take reasonability for our actions. If one breaks a store window because the store is closed and takes an axe to save someone from a car that is damaged from an accident, the hero might still have to pay for the damage they caused and item they took. But really, in the eyes of God, this would not be a sin, as far as He is concerned He owns everything anyway and saving a life is way more often then not ok (and He can see to it that all parties involved, who suffered losses are made whole if He wishes). But that is beside the point, the point is (concerning this paragraph) that humans can not see into the heart and will often judge by what they see and if it looks like an intentional, spiteful public display of sin in God’s house then the matter still needs to be addressed.

There is a time and place for things, if the church has a play and a few members dress as the opposite sex in order to play a part (comedy etc) then that is something that is in the context of doing good and attracting people to the house of God and is not sin given that each culture defines the boundaries of appropriate clothing for each sex as well as appropriate attire for a given event or situation. Also, anyone who is in disagreement with the play could choose not to attend.

Based on personal experience, I really think many Christians are way too quick to dismiss anything they don't consider "normal" or a social norm that they're used to to be a sinful lifestyle, whether the Bible actually says anything about it or not. In these cases, their quickness to point out sin isn't rooted in a love of God and the Bible, but out of their own personal prejudices and fear of what they aren't used to seeing. When this happens, it is damaging to the Church's image because it confirms many non-Christians unfortunate stereotypes.

God has good reason for giving the lessons and do’s and don’ts in the bible. Personally, I believe that doing what He said to do, with the heart He would do it with, as well as teaching His way and doing our best to live His way and responding to events in the way He would is best. It might not be every Christian but many Christians do and say what they do because it is what God did or would want done. They do it because they love Him.

Anyway, I personally think that if the church were to ask him to leave, it would've been a big mistake, regardless of whether or not you think he was sinning. If he might've been considering giving his life to God, that could've easily blown the deal over something petty.

Would you say the same concerning your quote above if two people were fornicating in the back of the church? God already showed that public displays of sin are not welcome in His house, and for good reason. Many show respect to a court of law, dressing in a decent way and we respect the house of those we visit. Why is there a problem when it comes to showing respect in the house of God and not doing what He said is taboo when we are in His house? Or can anyone come to your house and do as they please? And yes, we are the church but the world still acknowledges the church building as the house of God.

If you understand what I have written then you understand that there is nothing petty about keeping respect in order to give your children and guest (in God’s case, potential future children) the best possible chance at a good safe life free of corruption and misery, if God can be disrespected to His face (and in front of everyone) and nothing is done, then complete chaos will take over.

As I said..

The bible records that Jesus threw those who caused disruption and confusion out of the house of worship.

Mark 11:15 Then they came to Jerusalem. And He entered the temple and began to drive out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves; 16and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple. 17And He began to teach and say to them, “Is it not written, ‘MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE NATIONS’? But you have made it a ROBBERS’ DEN.”

Jesus did what you are calling a big mistake, was He wrong? Many say that God’s actions cause them to reject Him. But many of those who say such things seek reasons to deny the existence of God while at the same time taking comfort in the thought that they tried. They deceive themselves and are responsible for their own decision to give up. If anyone wants God then He will make sure they find Him. We are not to aid in leading the unsaved astray, so you do well, having concern for the Christian image. But I do not believe I am in error, God will not be disrespected in His own house and in front of His children and guest. And those He left in charge have an obligation to run His house as He would until His return, and that is for the benefit of those in the house, not God. It’s a matter respect, not hate.

Keep defending God’s house Seraph!

[Gman]

Well spoken J.Davis...

[Canuckster1127]

I had a time when I was commuting by subway in a three piece suit and had to undo a few buttons .... apparently it was a case of trans-vest-tight ......

[Seraph]

I liked your post J.Davis. I was inspired by the wisdom in it and don't really disagree with it. And thanks for the words of encouragement.

I guess I feel that a transvestite sitting in the pews is much less harmful to a church than a couple fornicating in the back, or merchants offering substitute sacrifices for a price like in Jesus' day. In the latter cases, they are clearly people deliberatly committing sins in the church with no regard for the Bible whatsoever. And in the case of the transvestite, if their agenda was to sit in at the church dressed like that in a hostile statement against God and Christianity, I would say they should most certainly be asked to leave. But the scenario I had pictured in my head was a geniune person seeking after God but at the same time has a fixation for dressing like the opposite gender but is unwilling to even go to church without dressing like that or is simply unaware of it being sin. In this scenario, I think that forcing them to leave would essentially be abandoning them due to a single sin.

I had a time when I was commuting by subway in a three piece suit and had to undo a few buttons .... apparently it was a case of trans-vest-tight ......

*buh dum tsh*