my most painful discovery..help please

[secretfire6]

I've been a follower of our messiah and God for quite a while, but only started really getting into bible and church studies a couple years ago. What I am finding is really hurting me. The pain comes almost entirely from the "christian" churches themselves.
When Christ walked the earth with the apostles there was one truth, one true church. It wasn't in the temple or a palace or cathedral. It was in our God, the living word, and the hearts of all those who believed and walked with him. After his physical death we eventually recieved the full and finished written word. Still one truth. Now, today, we have dozens upon dozens of churches, denominations, branches and sects all claiming they have the one truth. We also have a miriad of bible VERSIONS and translations, companion books, bibles with added script or missing script, denominations with totally brand new books and all of these groups fight with each other and argue and sometimes hate one another.
It may be because i now live in a small town and the variety of churches is fairly limited, but i have not yet found one that doesnt have at least one major deviation from the true source. The bickering between most of them is nearly unbearable. I just can't help but feel like the unity is lost and the body is no more..except among a very few who bother to go all the way back to the beginning and except truth above selfish desire and traditional teachings or practices.
so my questions are:
Are these feelings normal for a newcomer to the study of God's word?
Is this the "great falling away" of prophesy?
and most importantly...is there anyway to really find the truth through the study of the bible and churches??

please help if you can.

[RickD]

Secretfire6, these things you are experiencing are some of the same things I've gone through, and continue to experience myself. I first accepted Christ in 1975. So, it's not because you are a new believer. I made the decision to stop going to church, because I was sick of not finding a church that was right. I'm not saying that you should give up yourself. That's something you'll have to decide yourself. Keep reading the bible, and continue praying about a church that God wants you to attend. Some of the stuff you describe, is never going to change because we are all sinful. Pray constantly about it. God will lead you to where He wants you. Remember our faith is in Christ, Who is perfect. Not people who will always come up short of the mark.

[secretfire6]

Thank you RickD those are calming words.

What im running into now is something like this:

I read a new scripture that touches me, i meditate and think on it..sometimes pray over it for clarity, then do a little research or study. when i feel confident i share/ask others and get this conversation. Me- " hey i read this neat chapter a few days ago and i think what its saying is *******". Pastor 1- "where did you get that? what Bible are you reading? Thats something the so and so's teach What its really saying is ********. there are books and verses i could show you, but im really busy right now..." Pastor 2- "that pastor 1 guy doesnt know what hes talking about, he's influenced by the such and such doctrine that was created to satisfy some fleshly thing. What that chapter is really about is ********. just let the verses speak for themselves. Here, try reading this Bible instead." Pastor 3- "wow those two guys are so stuck in their old debate they havent dug deeper in the word to reveal the true meaning of that chapter. I wouldnt trust either of their Bibles either. They customized verses to suit their specific church plans. Don't even worry about little details like this, just take it to the lord and pray for an answer. if you're meant to know, you will know. As long as you've got the foundation, you're good to go."

Meanwhile i'm still sitting there completely dejected and frustrated. It's different if i read something and was completely lost, then i would listen to the arguments and put them to the test. But this happens even when i just want to share a personal discovery or how something has touched my life or relates to our time. it's like they care more about the arguing or furthering their agenda than they do about being a disciple. more often than not, when i take their points and arguments and look into them, they are all wrong anyway. My favorite was the argument about the name Jesus. group A says that praying to or being baptised in that name is blasphemy because its from pagan origin of isis and/or zeus. Group B says praying to or baptising in any name other than jesus is heresy. turns out they are both wrong. The letter and sound for "J" doesnt exist in hebrew, greek or latin and the source of jesus came from the transliteration of his true name through those languages and got the "j" from the angelocized English. They will never stop arguing tho.

So what do you say to people who ask what religion you are? If you say Christian, don't you get the barage of questions about what type, which church and what Bible?

[MarcusOfLycia]

Check this out:

http://itunes.rts.edu/content/default.aspx

Especially the Church History courses (the first one especially). I had some of the same issues you're now having when a formerly very good friend decided he was Eastern Orthodox and no other 'Christian denomination' actually represented Christ. It is interesting to see what has united Christians and what petty things have divided them at times. You'll get a lot out of it though!

[B. W.]

I've been a follower of our messiah and God for quite a while, but only started really getting into bible and church studies a couple years ago. What I am finding is really hurting me. The pain comes almost entirely from the "christian" churches themselves.
When Christ walked the earth with the apostles there was one truth, one true church. It wasn't in the temple or a palace or cathedral. It was in our God, the living word, and the hearts of all those who believed and walked with him. After his physical death we eventually recieved the full and finished written word. Still one truth. Now, today, we have dozens upon dozens of churches, denominations, branches and sects all claiming they have the one truth. We also have a miriad of bible VERSIONS and translations, companion books, bibles with added script or missing script, denominations with totally brand new books and all of these groups fight with each other and argue and sometimes hate one another.
It may be because i now live in a small town and the variety of churches is fairly limited, but i have not yet found one that doesnt have at least one major deviation from the true source. The bickering between most of them is nearly unbearable. I just can't help but feel like the unity is lost and the body is no more..except among a very few who bother to go all the way back to the beginning and except truth above selfish desire and traditional teachings or practices.
so my questions are:
Are these feelings normal for a newcomer to the study of God's word?
Is this the "great falling away" of prophesy?
and most importantly...is there anyway to really find the truth through the study of the bible and churches??

please help if you can.

Yes and for older comers too!

Always pray to find the Revelation 3:7 assembly and if you can't, become one yourself or at least help another group become such an assembly

Never quit the search and always seek to become that Revelation 3:7 member of that assembly demonstrating that one can live so close to Christ as to be his for others to see. Some will marvel, others will scoff, others seek to destroy, but there will be those of like mind drawn to Christ in You and join that assembly and that is the way it should be.
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[Silvertusk]

I've been a follower of our messiah and God for quite a while, but only started really getting into bible and church studies a couple years ago. What I am finding is really hurting me. The pain comes almost entirely from the "christian" churches themselves.
When Christ walked the earth with the apostles there was one truth, one true church. It wasn't in the temple or a palace or cathedral. It was in our God, the living word, and the hearts of all those who believed and walked with him. After his physical death we eventually recieved the full and finished written word. Still one truth. Now, today, we have dozens upon dozens of churches, denominations, branches and sects all claiming they have the one truth. We also have a miriad of bible VERSIONS and translations, companion books, bibles with added script or missing script, denominations with totally brand new books and all of these groups fight with each other and argue and sometimes hate one another.
It may be because i now live in a small town and the variety of churches is fairly limited, but i have not yet found one that doesnt have at least one major deviation from the true source. The bickering between most of them is nearly unbearable. I just can't help but feel like the unity is lost and the body is no more..except among a very few who bother to go all the way back to the beginning and except truth above selfish desire and traditional teachings or practices.
so my questions are:
Are these feelings normal for a newcomer to the study of God's word?
Is this the "great falling away" of prophesy?
and most importantly...is there anyway to really find the truth through the study of the bible and churches??

please help if you can.

Dont give up. Most churches you will find should agree on the core doctorine - such as the saving atonement of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and his ressurection from the dead. And it is only the non-essential stuff they bicker about - such as things like baptisms and communion, interpretation of Genesis, interpretation of end times. These make for interesting debate and as long as they carried out in love and humility then it can be quite refreshing. Any church that starts messing around with the core Doctorine is a cult plain and simple - and any church that questions your salvation due to your belief in these peripheral matters is wrong and you should wipe the dust off your feet as you leave it. As long as you know the creed and follow that - they you have nothing to worry about. And it doesn't really matter what interpretation you use for the Bible as long as you pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you. He will reveal its truth to you.

God Bless

Silvertusk.

[secretfire6]

Thank you all so much for your encouraging words. Some of the churches I've looked into do deviate from the core doctrine of what is meant to be Christianity and others are right on the edge. I have nothing against healthy debate or differing interpretations, but when the Bible teaches you one thing and then they do the exact opposite or if reality shows us a truth and they continue to preach an unknown.....that bothers me. It's like they are deeply searching and praying for an answer and God gives one, but they say "ummm nah I don't like that one. I'm gonna keep looking elsewhere". Then whatever else they find to satisfy their search, they spread to others. From what I can gather, a vast majority of the differences between church doctrines aren't from misunderstandings and bad translations, but from the church founders wanting to be different in the first place. Our faith was never meant to become like Disneyland, constantly reinventing itself, comming up with new and exciting things, keeping up with pop culture and finding new niches to sell tickets. Sadly, thats what I see the churches stooping to. It looks more like the business world than the spiritual one.

Note: My repulsion is not directed at any individual members of the congregations, but at the religious systems themselves and those that created them.

[Canuckster1127]

This has been a source of great pain and disappointment in my life as well, and I served as a Christian worker within Churches and denominations for 20 years of my life.

I've recently left formal membership within institutional churches. I have one church that I attend locally on occassion with my wife, and I am glad for the church, which is very grace based and has wonderful (imperfect like me) people involved.

It's almost cliche to say, but it is true that there is no perfect church. It's unfair and highly critical to hold a church up to criticism for not being perfect and if your goal is to find one that is perfect, you'll never achieve that. Like any relationship, it requires graciousness and forgiveness to extended regularly.

That said, I've personally come to the conclusion that the institutional, denominational type church model is flawed and primarily unBiblical (which doesn't make it wrong and I believe there's relatively little instruction as to the exact model a church should use.) I do believe however that many of the elements of institutional church find their roots in pagan traditions which were imported wholescale in the 4th century when Christianity was adopted by Rome.

A good, very well referenced book that addresses these issues, in my opinion is Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna. Don't just read that book however alone. There's a follow-up book that builds a picture of what can be right in terms of church called Reimagining Church by Frank Viola that balances that book.

Another book that I've appreciated is So You Don't Wan't to Go to Church Anymore? by Jake Colson (a pseudonymn for Wayne Jacobsen and Dave Coleman). There's a movement toward Simple Church and Organic Church that may be of interest to you which seeks to move people closer to the way the early church functioned. It's not intended to be just imitation. It's intended to build relationships and make worship and teaching more interactive with all members participating and using their gifts rather than just sitting as a spectator in a service where a few favored individuals perform. It's not for everyone, and it might be especially hard to develop in a small town without several people of the same heart and mind working together. It's by no means easier than being a part of an institutional church. In fact, it's quite harder and it requires a great deal of grace because as you draw close to others in this context you'll become even more aware of how imperfect other believers (including ourselves) are. But I believe it offers a great deal that leads to maturity and a development of our gifts and actually functioning in a body than most institutional churches provide. It's the difference in my opinion between drive-through fast food and actually sitting down and sharing a meal with people you love and who love you.

My opinion. As I say, it's not for everyone and I'm not suggesting that all institutional churches are wrong or lack the opportunity to love and grow. For me, however, given that so much of institutional church has no foundation in the Bible for how they act, the answer has been to leave it.

[secretfire6]

yeah, I still occasionally attend the assembly of God church that is just down the road from me. I was baptised there and the people are great, but whenever they start talking about extra baptisims, holy spiirit possesions and stammering in "tounges" i have to filter it all out. Same way with reading anything from the Jahova's witnesses, I have to filter out all the junk that comes from the watchtower society. I currently have a much better time with small, mixed Bible study groups. we sit and discuss things more openly, there is nobody governing our veiws and telling us what is "right" unless we find something that is very obviously wrong. we eat together, have a prayer request and praise report list, we pray together and are talking about signing up for habitat for humanity this year.

the church you're describing sounds like my kind of thing. Being more intereactive and proactive. Throwing out old leagalisms and unholy traditions, being able to filter out new junk christianity. I'll have to write those books down and check them out.

Thanks again to everone for your help. It feels a little better to know that I'm not the only one who has felt this way about the churches. God bless you and perhaps I'll see you in another discussion

[mandelduke]

This is nothing new here are some scriptures to show you even the Apostles had a hard time. Grace is such a wonderful gift, it is hard to believe it’s free. Every one wants to do something to earn it.




Luke 9-52;56

52And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Galatians 1-6;10

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Acts 15-1;21

1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’—
18 things known from long ago.[c]
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”