Discussion about near death experiences (ndes)

[cubeus19]

Hi everyone I was wanting to discuss near death experiences. I mostly want to cover two main areas or concerns. Now for the most part, I really love reading about and learning about near death experiences. I especially enjoyed reading about BW's nde. And even though I'm very hopeful and confident that ndes give us a true glimpse of the afterlife I'm somewhat concerned about what atheist/naturalists have to say about it (especially atheists who are in the field of neuroscience) and I'm equally concerned about what new age proponents have to say about the over alll data concerning ndes.

First off the objections by atheist neuroscientists. During the early days of nde research skeptics would claim that the patients who reported these events were either hallucinating, not fully brain dead, or that they are from effects of drugs. But as more data came in from new nde accounts and further studies were done by pro nde researchers like Michael Sabom and Melvin Morse they were able to show many nde accounts that were happened without any assistance of medicine and they were also able to demonstrate that many ndes happen when the person experiencing it has no brain wave activity.

The latest attempts that I currently know of by atheist neuroscientists is to show that ndes are caused by right temporal lobe stimulation as shown by Michael Persinger's "God helmet experiments" or that they are caused by a certain brain chemical that is released right at the time of death called "dmt". Now for these explanations I don't know how to respond to other than to say how would it explain the experiences where people report accurate information that is happening far away from them (like finding out about friends and loved ones who had just died during their nde experience).

I was wondering if anyone has any other better responses to the "God helmet" and "dmt" arguments.

Secondly, I was wanting to touch on some of the implications that has been gathered by the big picture of nde research. If ndes cannot be fully explained in a naturalistic sense then it's safe to say currently that we have solid scientific evidence for a afterlife.

But if just going by the data of all the nde experiences, it seems to indicate that muslims, Jews, Christians and almost everyone goes to heaven. Even though there is data of Christians seeing Jesus there is also data of muslims seeing muhammad, and new agers seeing krishna.

What worries me is, would this indicate that even though a God of some kind exists would this indicate it may not be the Christian God? Also would this indicate that people who experience ndes just see whatever they want to see or pre programed to see based on what they believe, thus giving more credence to a atheistic and naturalistic explanation?

I think many Christians say that a muslim's or a new ager's experience is a direct product of demonic deception from satan, and even though that's a good quick answer it raises another big question, just how powerful is satan? Can satan produce dreams and other sub realities in front of us? Does satan know our thoughts and intentions like God does?

Well anyway I was wondering if anyone here wants to add to this discussion. I would love to see what you all know. Hopefully we can clear up some of these issues. But anyway I look forward to seeing what you all have. Thanks and GB.

[Silvertusk]

Personally I am very skeptical about NDE's. I am quite happy to accept the naturalistic explanation for it as you said the inconsistancy with all the experiences does raise some questions. I don't really see the point of God giving so many people these experiences that don't match up. If they are genuine, like I sure some people believe then that is fantastic and certainly a reassurance for the people who have experienced them but I don't think it matters as evidence for Christianity. NDE's is like giving people special revelation and why would God choose to give people this experience when they basically afterwards do nothing with it - like a friend of mine. Certainly people like B.W. has made good and proper use of this "revelation" but there is so many that haven't. Too many unanswered questions surrounds them.

All of course IMHO.

God Bless

Silvertusk.

[Reactionary]

I've read about NDEs, and I can conclude, the more I read about them, the less I know.

The facts just seem so contradictory - if NDEs are produced by the human brain, then why do they occur while the brain is flatlined? And how come the experiencers accurately describe what was happening around them during that time? This seems to refute the "DMT theory", as an inactive brain can't hallucinate, and especially not perceive its surroundings. As for the "God helmet", well, we can tamper with a TV set, alter the picture, colors, channels, or finally turn it off, but that doesn't mean the TV set is the source of the program we watch.

On the other hand, if those experiences are indeed "private revelations", why do they differ so much in content? All religions definitely can't be true. Could it be a Satanic deception? Maybe - (2 Corinthians 11:14) However, in that case, it's hard for me to understand why God would allow him such an influence. If we assume that NDEs are really a spiritual experience, then I come to a conclusion that many of them come from God... but not all of them. I still have more questions than answers though.

[B. W.]

NDE comments

One point to consider is that people were resuscitated before being allowed to go any further into discovering what was really going on. Atheist A.J. Ayers expressed it best during his own NDE as, 'approaching the governor of the universe' which appeared as a reddish light source midst dark background. He was resuscitated and missed the import of this as many do and often misinterpret the experience based upon the overwhelmingness of the journey so that it appears only positive and bright.

This journey is interrupted at a point and they proceed no further. Thus, interpretations will be based on positive feelings and impressions felt during the arrival time, not realizing the greatness of the love/peace being felt is in actuality judging them, showing each how they treat such love with neglect, contempt, and exploitation as evidenced by their mortal life course. They are stopped before reaching this point and return imposing diverse accounts of positive NDE’s.

The journey is interrupted before this point due to resuscitation. It would be like heading to a famous vacation resort somewhere but when you get to the gate to enter you find a Closed Sign, Do Not Enter and are forced to return. You remember the good things that happened during the trip to the resort but never really entered the celebrated peaceful resort itself. Only the good things about the journey are reported but the resort remained closed to them. They do not proceed beyond.

Also, young children NDE’s are different as often they do go beyond and see the resort for such is the Kingdom of Heaven. However, when such become adults, these memories can cloud and distort their theology. This should be taken into account when reading adult accounts concerning their childhood NDE’s. They should examine and realize they need Jesus now more than ever.

As for negative experiences – hell is unlike anything one can imagine. Hell is a profound place made for the devil and his minions – where they lie, steal, and bring ruin in diverse ways, exposing that the inhabitants chose exploitation of love over God always in all things just as the principle in Isaiah 26:10 clearly alludes too. Flames, dry, hot, dusty, thirst, etc and etc, are allegorical, metaphorical, and literal used to describe this place. No better fitting words than these. The torment is not from God but comes from within the person and the demonic hosts who lie, steal, bring to ruin.

The worst and most frightful thing is not hell but rather standing before God being judged, exposed, revealed by his love how wretchedly we exploited his love. The real you exposed so those that see hell see it as mercy because oblivion is not just for a just God to use. They made the bed, now such persons lay in it because they’ll will never, as an eternal being, ever behold the majesty of God in their heart of hearts. Love to them is to exploit and game and use in such manner as to entrap God to act against his own character and nature – that God will not allow entering his kingdom. When you stand, and have that kind of love judge you unclean, a filthy rag, proving way beyond all reasonable doubt – that is not reported because of resuscitation.
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[CeT-To]

Isn't it true that also some people enter hell and are delluded with an illusion by the demons to think its heaven?

[B. W.]

Isn't it true that also some people enter hell and are delluded with an illusion by the demons to think its heaven?

Yes, that was what I was trying to say in a tactful manner...

There is a principle about this found in the bible as well found in...

2 Co 11:14, 15c, "And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." NKJV

The bible describes demonic entities as liars and deceivers. So it is no wonder they could deceive someone being resuscitated before they had the time to realize where they really were, thus, they unwittingly spread deception in this mortal life concerning the affairs of the afterlife.
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[Silvertusk]

I suppose the only way we know if any NDE statements are true are to keep referring to scripture.

[neo-x]

IMO even when the brain is flat-lined....there is some activity deep with in the subconscious. i have also read somewhere that when a person is about to die and loses consciousness the brain keeps working little by little to make sure that all of the bodily systems shutdown, blood pressure drops, the sensory motors are shutoff, vision, smell, other senses go off, just like a coma. i think NDE is like a comma, but unlike a comma and only for a short period time he can see past his conscious into the subconscious a place where science says we can only go when we are dreaming, thus implying an alternate reality. In that a person may experience an illusion whether that be from God or the devil or the mind itself.

I personally think that a few may be able to see God, like Stephen did in the Book of Acts when they were stoning him. But then I would say it would have nothing to do with his brain, but with his eyes of faith. Im not implying that what he saw was his own mind's projection but rather through faith he could see past the bodily vision.

A lot of people see evil spirits too. I have seen possessed people, most of the times in an exorcism, the evil spirit claims to be Kali, Krishna, Hanumaan or other religious figures from islam and hinduism. it would be no wonder then if these entities can come to people at their NDE, this in-turn would either mock their belief or strengthen it.

I think the devil has the power to even perform feats that otherwise would look like only God can do. I have often struggled with the question of Moses' rod turning to snake. now i know that Moses' rod transformed into a snake because God can do it. but it made me wonder how the magicians of pharaoh transformed their rods as well into snakes. It implies that the devil has some sort of power, if not to breathe life into a body but at least to partially simulate one.

[DannyM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqD ... re=related

Take a look at this if you haven't already seen it.

Anyone got a sceptical explanation for this?
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[RickD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqD ... re=related

Take a look at this if you haven't already seen it.

Anyone got a sceptical explanation for this?
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I'm not sure what you're looking for, Danny. It seems to me what happened to her was real. But I question a few things that she said in the video. She talked to her grandmother and uncle. The light was what happens when God breathes. I'm not convinced what she saw was God, or heaven. Remember 2 Corinthians 11:14.

[DannyM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqD ... re=related

Take a look at this if you haven't already seen it.

Anyone got a sceptical explanation for this?
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I'm not sure what you're looking for, Danny. It seems to me what happened to her was real. But I question a few things that she said in the video. She talked to her grandmother and uncle. The light was what happens when God breathes. I'm not convinced what she saw was God, or heaven. Remember 2 Corinthians 11:14.

What she described doesn't strike me as being Satan-led, Rick. She didn't say she saw God or heaven; everything she said seemed plausible to me; even down to family members appearing "at their best" and her grandmother telling her that no, the light was not God but rather "breathed" by God. Hey, I dunno - but even the neurosurgeon and other specialists were flummoxed.

[RickD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqD ... re=related

Take a look at this if you haven't already seen it.

Anyone got a sceptical explanation for this?
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I'm not sure what you're looking for, Danny. It seems to me what happened to her was real. But I question a few things that she said in the video. She talked to her grandmother and uncle. The light was what happens when God breathes. I'm not convinced what she saw was God, or heaven. Remember 2 Corinthians 11:14.

What she described doesn't strike me as being Satan-led, Rick. She didn't say she saw God or heaven; everything she said seemed plausible to me; even down to family members appearing "at their best" and her grandmother telling her that no, the light was not God but rather "breathed" by God. Hey, I dunno - but even the neurosurgeon and other specialists were flummoxed.

Danny, I'm not sure it was Satan-led, either. I just saw a few things that I'll say raised a few "yellow flags" . I would have to know a lot more about her or her experience to be sure one way or the other. A ten minute video isn't enough for me to go on.

[Murray]

You know one of our board moderators had a NDE.

And athiest claim that people will see what they expect to see when they die right? So then why do athiest, who expect to see nothing, come back saying they have experienced hell?

[DannyM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqD ... re=related

Take a look at this if you haven't already seen it.

Anyone got a sceptical explanation for this?
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I'm not sure what you're looking for, Danny. It seems to me what happened to her was real. But I question a few things that she said in the video. She talked to her grandmother and uncle. The light was what happens when God breathes. I'm not convinced what she saw was God, or heaven. Remember 2 Corinthians 11:14.

What she described doesn't strike me as being Satan-led, Rick. She didn't say she saw God or heaven; everything she said seemed plausible to me; even down to family members appearing "at their best" and her grandmother telling her that no, the light was not God but rather "breathed" by God. Hey, I dunno - but even the neurosurgeon and other specialists were flummoxed.

Danny, I'm not sure it was Satan-led, either. I just saw a few things that I'll say raised a few "yellow flags" . I would have to know a lot more about her or her experience to be sure one way or the other. A ten minute video isn't enough for me to go on.

Rick, as you know, I'll never again take your yellow *or* red flags for granted. I'm not saying this was in any way conclusive, either. But I would like to delve into more of this and, as you have so helpfully and patiently taught me, pray for discernment about it. Thanks to you I've learned that, alongside Scripture, there is no better way to find the truth.

[RickD]

Danny, believe it or not, my Mom died on the operating table. She claims to have seen something as well. If you wish to know more, I can certainly get her story for you. I wasn't really so interested in her experience at the time, because I was more interested in making sure she was ok. But if you're really interested, I can find out. Just let me know.